Will work for free...

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Injun
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Will work for free...

#1 Post by Injun » Wed Apr 15, 2009 5:30 pm

Hi, new poster of opinions but I couldn't help it on this one. Recently saw ad in Aero Ads for a rotary pilot willing to work for free for one year for a company that will let them fly.

First, I am an engineer, not a pilot but I have compassion for pilots as I was good friends with many I worked with that worked their butts off for little pay for years to get where they are today.

This is the reason that it's hard to get a start for a young pilot is pathetic attempts like this to do nothing but fly for a living. Hey, why not skip working for a living all together and go straight for retirement. Most people with financial obligations such as a family or real bill could lose out to this goof.

Moral-I have never seen anyone with work ethic willing to make some sacrifices, even pilots be without work.
What do others think of this?
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Re: Will work for free...

#2 Post by sky's the limit » Wed Apr 15, 2009 6:13 pm

Nothing disgusts me more about our aviation industry in Canada than people working for free. Except maybe people willing to let someone young and desperate work for free.

Times are once again tough, and I think we're going to see a lot more of this over the next year or two.

stl
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Re: Will work for free...

#3 Post by AV8R » Wed Apr 22, 2009 5:20 pm

work for free....volunteering and helping hospital patients is one thing but most pilots have thrown a good wad of cash to get their tickets and when someone decides to work for free well that is what is wrong with this crappy industry
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Re: Will work for free...

#4 Post by Heliian » Fri May 01, 2009 5:43 pm

The guy's trying to get in the door and get experience anyway possible. If I just spent 60g's getting my ticket, I'd sure as hell wouldn't want to sweep the floor for peanuts. And if he's not a good pilot/employee he won't be working anyway. You should see some low-timers who get paid, they really shouldn't be allowed anywhere near an a/c. And, i'm sure he doesn't want to work for free forever. Good for him
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Re: Will work for free...

#5 Post by All Sides » Sat May 02, 2009 12:21 pm

[quote="Heliian"]The guy's trying to get in the door and get experience anyway possible. If I just spent 60g's getting my ticket, I'd sure as hell wouldn't want to sweep the floor for peanuts. And if he's not a good pilot/employee he won't be working anyway. You should see some low-timers who get paid, they really shouldn't be allowed anywhere near an a/c. And, i'm sure he doesn't want to work for free forever. Good for him[/quote]


And that attitude folks is why this industry will never progress beyond where it is.
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Re: Will work for free...

#6 Post by kingeddie » Sun May 03, 2009 6:12 pm

Feed him to the dingos
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Re: Will work for free...

#7 Post by itismedd » Wed May 06, 2009 1:46 am

Well, I have to disagree, and its because of this.........( this may piss a few of you off but). I am an A.M.E too and when I got out of college this industry was at the low peak well in Atlantic Canada anyway which of course is not the best place for aviation( yes I will take the blame for that). I could not get a job no matter where I looked. Everybody asked me whats your experience, well there is only one way to get that now isnt there. Nobody wanted me cause I never had experience and I couldnt get experience cause no one would hire me. And if I didnt volunteer part time for ten months, I would still be at Tim Hortons flipping donuts. I am sure this person is not doing this just to rattle anyone's cage, as they don't want to work for free either. They just feel they have no other option but to do this, or sit and wait for this industry to turn around again.

I wish this person good luck, and hope they havent got to do this for too long.
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Re: Will work for free...

#8 Post by kingeddie » Wed May 06, 2009 6:07 am

We are going to need more dingos
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Re: Will work for free...

#9 Post by itismedd » Wed May 06, 2009 6:40 am

Well kingeddie, in you opinion.......what do you suggest the person to do.
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Re: Will work for free...

#10 Post by donnybrook » Wed May 06, 2009 10:45 am

You could volunteer at a "not for profit" place like a museum... If you are working for free you are cheapening the value of your, and everyone else's, skillset. Don't do it....
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Re: Will work for free...

#11 Post by invertedattitude » Wed May 06, 2009 11:08 am

Donny, I 100% see your point.

Unfortunately there isn't exactly a plethora of aviation museums in Atlantic Canada.
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Re: Will work for free...

#12 Post by itismedd » Wed May 06, 2009 12:53 pm

As do I, but saying just dont do it doesnt answer the question of what this person should do. So your saying........if you cant find a job in the industry of aviation, hang in there even if it means washing planes or sweeping the floor for another 2-3 years? I think the reason for people having to resort to volunteering is the part of the wavelength of which you come into aviation, some come into it on the high peak( getting nabbed straight out of college), others come into it on the low peak.
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Re: Will work for free...

#13 Post by kingeddie » Wed May 06, 2009 5:56 pm

I started in the late 80's and it was as slow as it s now . There were guys working for free then to and those guys enjoyed a longer carreer of floor sweeping and shit jobs with the boss standing on their neck whenever he felt like than the rest of us .The thing to remember is that the guys you start with are the guys you will be working with ,20 yrs from now and if they don't respect you now that is unlikely to change . I had the occaision to have one of those guys want to work for me at one time and I would rather have hired a golden retriever .
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Re: Will work for free...

#14 Post by SeptRepair » Wed May 06, 2009 9:44 pm

Im with you KingEddie. I joined this industry in the mid 80's and worked for shit wages. But not once did i have to stoop to a level that I had to whore myself out free to get experience. I have higher self esteem than that. I have no time for people who knowingly volunteer their time to cheap ass employers.
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Re: Will work for free...

#15 Post by All Sides » Wed May 06, 2009 10:44 pm

I'm with kingeddie and SeptRepair, I started out pumping floats, helping wrench, and whatever else had to be done in the early 80's at the beginning of a recession. I did it for four years and didn't give up and was I paid the whole time. One of the pilots told me never lower myself to working for free, they had worked way too hard to get the industry wages where they were. The wages still aren't anywhere close to where they should be, and working for free will come back to haunt you and everyone else later in your career.
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Re: Will work for free...

#16 Post by itismedd » Thu May 07, 2009 1:40 am

Ok, lets put it this way..........how long did it take for you guys/gals when you got out of college to actually land a job? For me it was 3 years graduated in 1991. First job was 1994.

All sides,
Were you hired on as an apprentice during your grunt work for 4 years, or did they hire you as an apprentice after the 4 years? How long did it take you to get that job after getting out of college?

You all got a good point and there is a point to be argued on both sides but, no one has actually came out and said what this pilot should do(which started this debate). What is your opinion on what a person should do who just spent whatever it is for training and no signs of a job anywhere. Other than suck it up Princess and tough luck! Just wait for it, it will come, kind of a hard piece of advice for someone with a 60000.00 loan for training.
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Re: Will work for free...

#17 Post by All Sides » Thu May 07, 2009 10:17 am

itismedd, I started my apprenticeship before I was out of high school, the local engineer wanted a power mechanic student to help him at the local airline. Even though I never set out to wrench I talked the guy into hiring me instead, all my life all I wanted to do is get into aviation. I eventually before I had my AME went and did my commercial fixed wing and lined up a job before I finished my license, I had to leave before I had a night rating.

I now 24 years later have an AME, Commercial F/W and R/W with 12000 hours. Lucky, not a chance I networked and lived and breathed aviation for over 10 years, at a great cost to my personal life. I have lived all over Canada in towns of less than 400 people, not always fun. You might be surprised to learn I am not in the minority on this forum, most of us have made a lot of sacrifices to be in this industry.

In answer to your question, " What should this poor fella do". Get off his ass and do what ever is required to fulfill his dreams, but don't sell himself for free. Send out resumes to every company in Canada and hit the pavement till he finds a job, if it doesn't work this year do it again next year. I have run into guys that have been at it for 5 years or more, who have barely accumulated 300 hours, but they don't give up and work for free. The fact that this guy will work for free, dishonors their hard work and sacrifice.

Any other questions feel free to ask.
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Re: Will work for free...

#18 Post by itismedd » Thu May 07, 2009 11:35 am

What makes you so sure this guy is on his ass( unless you personally know them). I 'm sure he didnt finish training and say oh....time to volunteer!!!!All I am saying is the people that do voluteer probably feel that there is no hope( as they love aviation too and thats another reason why they did it). I know I do!!!! When I was a kid and a plane or helicopter came fying by I would run and watch it until I couldnt see it anymore.

Getting a job before getting out of high school well good for you( I wish I was in a situation like that.........but you wont hear me bitch about it because I wasnt). So you been to a few places all over the country, I totally agree with you as it can really affect your personal life. I am in Nigeria now and its really affecting my family life! I bet you got a few stories to tell too.......and those are priceless. I do see what you are saying, and you do have a very good point,but dont look at the people like they are the anti christ as they too have or will make the similar sacrifices as you throughout their career.
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Re: Will work for free...

#19 Post by sky's the limit » Thu May 07, 2009 4:28 pm

Regardless of the specifics in this example, working for free in this country should NEVER happen.

Employers have a responsibility to pay people who do work for them, and as has been said above, employees have a responsibility to both themselves and their fellow pilots to receive adequate compensation for that work.

As has also been pointed out already, people are watching, and if you think your peers won't know who is degrading themselves by working for free when others in the same situation are not, you had better think twice. Even now, many years into a career, there are people (very experienced people) who are now lowering their pay expectations, increasing tour lengths, and keeping quiet about maintenance issues effectively nullifying all the gains made over the past decade in these departments. I know who they are, and I have lost all respect for them, as have others.

Your peers at the 100hr stage are your future Chief Pilot's, Ops Managers, and company Owners... never forget it. How you conduct yourself both in, and out of the cockpit will effect the rest of your career - particularly in helicopters where there are no airlines to run to.

stl
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Re: Will work for free...

#20 Post by moose » Thu May 07, 2009 7:43 pm

quote: kind of a hard piece of advice for someone with a 60000.00 loan for training.

yeah it is, but how is working for free going to help? And how is it going to help the rest of us with these loans fresh outta school, with buddy down the way offering free labour to anyone with a helicopter? I am currently finishing up the conversion, and can most definitly tell you that I will NOT be working for free.
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Re: Will work for free...

#21 Post by Bell » Sun May 10, 2009 11:05 am

itismedd, if you had been injured during your ten month stint who would have covered your living/medical costs? You're not doing yourself (or anyone else) any favors. I went through the same bs and still struggle (almost licensed) which is why I am leaving this industry. Recently a small company that I had enquired with suggested that I offer up my maint. services for free and when things improve salary could be discussed. My response? F**k Off! Work=Paycheck.
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Re: Will work for free...

#22 Post by itismedd » Mon May 11, 2009 9:35 am

Bell, your exactly right. People who do do not think about the liability portion of it.

I am not talking about the people who get laid off. As when you look for another job you have experience to back you up. I am talking about the fresh out of college, wet behind the ears, I am talking about and I think STL said it well when he said "someone young and desperate work for free." As I was.

If an employer suggests to you to volunteer, then yes "go pound sand" is the right answer.

I am not saying its right that it happens......but it does happen. So why does it happen? People are angry at them for doing so, but screwing someone out of a job was not their intent. They are not the only reason why this industry is what it is, it may well be a contributing factor but not the "only reason".
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Re: Will work for free...

#23 Post by bubbachief » Mon May 11, 2009 9:57 am

I say find out who are these companies and black ball them (dont give them any help with parts or advice) then report them to the feds and see how they sort that out. I heard some companies are starting that crap with new apprentices also. Its wrong and we should help out these newbies anyway we can by making it impossible for companies to take advantage of them
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Re: Will work for free...

#24 Post by Bell » Mon May 11, 2009 10:12 am

Well bubbachief, I took the liberty of passing on my 'experience' to the feds as well as WCB. Never have worked for free, don't intend to start. Canada is just another banana republic. If you know anyone looking for a couple of apprentices (a decent company), pm me. itismedd, glad you are on your way, all the best.
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Re: Will work for free...

#25 Post by crazy_aviator » Thu Jun 04, 2009 5:25 pm

I wanna be a pilot ! i wanna be a pilot ! this is the childish rant AND the same rant that is heard from 50 year olds,,,,,what do they say .. " i love flying and as a bonus, they actually pay me " Guess what folks ,,,GET OVER IT !! Pilots are their own worst enemies AND if you want to "do it" and live in a democratic society ,,,, you will be competing with the wannabes and plane-struck self absorbed folks who have only 1 goal in their life ,,,and that is ,, to fly fly fly ,,,at ANY cost !!! Get used to yourselves , pilots, your all from the same stock ( and im a professional pilot/ AME and i know what im talking about) :lol: :D
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