Foreign pilots and helicopter operators

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Gilles Hudicourt
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Foreign pilots and helicopter operators

Post by Gilles Hudicourt »

http://www.h-a-c.ca/Honourable_Jason_Kenny.pdf

What do Canadian Helicopter pilots think of this letter ?
Honourable Jason Kenny
Minister of Citizenship, Immigration and Multiculturalism
325 East Block
House of Commons
Ottawa, ON
K1A 0A6

Honourable Minister:

The Helicopter Association of Canada’s members collectively operate over 80% of the commercial helicopters in Canada today.

The Association has been watching with interest the discussion relating to the use of temporary foreign workers in Canada, and prospective changes to the Accelerated Labour Market Opinion process under discussion and, we feel that you should be aware of the importance of temporary foreign workers to our industry segment.

The Canadian helicopter industry depends on highly skilled seasonal foreign workers to supplement the growing shortage of experienced helicopter pilots in Canada.
The global shortage of experienced helicopter flight crews has drawn many experienced Canadian pilots to international locales both in support of Canadian companies working internationally, but also to work for foreign companies. Experienced Canadian helicopter pilots and Maintenance Engineers are sought-after around the world, and during the busy summer months, many of our members have difficulty finding qualified Canadians to meet their needs. The recognition of foreign aircraft maintenance qualifications makes temporary access by foreign maintenance personnel even more complicated.

Furthermore, a growing number of our Canadian clients impose experience requirements that make it difficult to find and employ newly-licensed Canadian helicopter pilots and, the seasonal nature of the helicopter business only aggravates the problem when the demand for experienced crews spikes during the summer months. The process of building time and experience as a helicopter pilot is difficult and time-consuming and, the transition from a newly-licensed helicopter pilot to a readily-employable pilot is a challenging one for both pilots and employers. It takes years of experience to be able to read weather, perform external load operations, or just manage the new more sophisticated aircraft our customers demand. A pilot with 1,000 hours on a small piston engine powered aircraft is not the same as a pilot with experience on a new generation multi-engine aircraft

In Canada, helicopter operators generally have a very short operating season and sometimes unpredictable demands - on short notice for extra flight crews in a busy fire season, for example, can aggravate the shortage. We absolutely need access to temporary English and French-speaking foreign workers, sometimes on an accelerated basis.

Our foreign contractor-pilots are generally paid according to Canadian flight crew standards. It is not a question of finding a cheaper temporary source of experienced flight crews – but one of simply finding experienced temporary flight crews.

Any changes to the temporary foreign worker program should contemplate the needs of our industry for seasonal pilots and maintenance personnel. We would welcome the opportunity to discuss this matter to ensure that service to our customers is not interrupted by a short-sighted change to the temporary foreign worker program or to the accelerated Labour Market Opinion process.

We would be pleased to meet with you at your convenience on this issue. Thank you for your consideration.

Sincerely,

Fred L. Jones BA LLB
President and CEO
Helicopter Association of Canada
“Bringing the Industry Together”
130 Albert Street, Suite 500
Ottawa, Ontario K1P 5G4
Office: (613) 231-1110 x239
Cell: (613) 884-1422
Fax: (613) 369-5097
Website: www.h-a-c.ca
What licences do these foreign helicopter pilots fly with when in Canada ?
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Gilles Hudicourt
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Re: Foreign pilots and helicopter operators

Post by Gilles Hudicourt »

I already posted this earlier on the Airline Forum but am re-posting here:

A pilot walked up to me a couple days ago to share something with me. He told me that before becoming a fixed-wing airline pilot, he had a first life as a rotary wing pilot. He graduated with his rotary wing commercial in the mid seventies. At the time, a high number of helicopter pilots in Canada were foreign. Vietnam had ended just a few years before and they were thousands of experienced foreign helicopter pilots on the market, but few experienced ones in Canada. So Canadian helicopter operators hired foreigners on that basis. Then some people began to object and finally the Federal Government intervened and provided funds to provide less experienced Canadian pilots with advanced training in order to qualify them for the jobs that were being handed out to the foreigners.

This pilots tells me that the company where he finally landed his first job was provided with Federal funds with which they hired him and four other Canadians with which they provided type training to the five.

Many other Canadian companies benefited from this same program, which allowed the replacement with the foreign helicopter pilots with Canadian pilots.

Anyone else remember this program and want to add anything about it ?
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47guy's
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Re: Foreign pilots and helicopter operators

Post by 47guy's »

Gilles Hudicourt wrote:I already posted this earlier on the Airline Forum but am re-posting here:

A pilot walked up to me a couple days ago to share something with me. He told me that before becoming a fixed-wing airline pilot, he had a first life as a rotary wing pilot. He graduated with his rotary wing commercial in the mid seventies. At the time, a high number of helicopter pilots in Canada were foreign. Vietnam had ended just a few years before and they were thousands of experienced foreign helicopter pilots on the market, but few experienced ones in Canada. So Canadian helicopter operators hired foreigners on that basis. Then some people began to object and finally the Federal Government intervened and provided funds to provide less experienced Canadian pilots with advanced training in order to qualify them for the jobs that were being handed out to the foreigners.

This pilots tells me that the company where he finally landed his first job was provided with Federal funds with which they hired him and four other Canadians with which they provided type training to the five.

Many other Canadian companies benefited from this same program, which allowed the replacement with the foreign helicopter pilots with Canadian pilots.

Anyone else remember this program and want to add anything about it ?
Il y des lunessss j'ai essayer d'avoir acces a ce genre de programme ca n'a jamais aboutie!J'etais face a un systeme de fonctionariat qui voulais rien savoir!il ne pouvais consevoir d'investir 10K$ pour un pilote deja formee mais avec besoin de mise a niveau pour etre employable,mais avais 25K$ et + pour aller en informatique...

Guy

Sorry I can effectively right my message in english but RAGE to them is still to mutch!
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sky's the limit
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Re: Foreign pilots and helicopter operators

Post by sky's the limit »

Year by year, my issue with the HAC and its Executive grows. This is yet another example of why, despite its claims to the contrary, the HAC is counter-productive to a healthy Canadian helicopter industry and a total farce. The HAC should be ashamed... I don't care what justification the membership has for garbage like this, but it is just that - Garbage.


stl
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Gilles Hudicourt
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Re: Foreign pilots and helicopter operators

Post by Gilles Hudicourt »

sky's the limit wrote: Why don't you write another letter, to TC this time, explaining how many of your valued "Members" use some of these pilots? Now that would be a read....

stl
Don't worry about that. I'm on it.....
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sky's the limit
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Re: Foreign pilots and helicopter operators

Post by sky's the limit »

Thanks for this Gilles,

I'm passing it around to all my friends and co-workers, and going to write a response to it given the address of the recipient is included. I just got off the phone this morning with a co-worker who is looking for work as there is so little out there... he's only got 10,000hrs, great long-line and mountain skills, can't imagine he'll be pleased about this.

If you have any advice perhaps you could PM me and I'll get something put together over the weekend.

stl
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The Weasel
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Re: Foreign pilots and helicopter operators

Post by The Weasel »

Wow, HAC can't make any claim to be speaking for individuals with that letter, only the operators and owners. I agree though that the client demands for PIC hours etc is a strain. I think that's the real issue. If that was less of a barrier, then more pilots would be able to build hours, and there'd be less of a 'shortage'. Or maybe Canadian operators aren't able/willing to compete with international salaries?

In the long run though, more restrictions on foreign pilots (sounds like that's the way HAC thinks the government is heading) would put strain on clients and operators to accept lower-time pilots, helping to build their hours, and eventually strengthening the domestic pool of pilots.

As for AMEs, well, we're just 'different', but the industry as a whole needs to do better to recruit young people into maintenance...
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fijdor
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Re: Foreign pilots and helicopter operators

Post by fijdor »

Gilles Hudicourt wrote:http://www.h-a-c.ca/Honourable_Jason_Kenny.pdf

What do Canadian Helicopter pilots think of this letter ?
Honourable Jason Kenny
Minister of Citizenship, Immigration and Multiculturalism
325 East Block
House of Commons
Ottawa, ON
K1A 0A6

Honourable Minister:

The Helicopter Association of Canada’s members collectively operate over 80% of the commercial helicopters in Canada today.

The Association has been watching with interest the discussion relating to the use of temporary foreign workers in Canada, and prospective changes to the Accelerated Labour Market Opinion process under discussion and, we feel that you should be aware of the importance of temporary foreign workers to our industry segment.

The Canadian helicopter industry depends on highly skilled seasonal foreign workers to supplement the growing shortage of experienced helicopter pilots in Canada.
The global shortage of experienced helicopter flight crews has drawn many experienced Canadian pilots to international locales both in support of Canadian companies working internationally, but also to work for foreign companies. Experienced Canadian helicopter pilots and Maintenance Engineers are sought-after around the world, and during the busy summer months, many of our members have difficulty finding qualified Canadians to meet their needs. The recognition of foreign aircraft maintenance qualifications makes temporary access by foreign maintenance personnel even more complicated.


Sincerely,

Fred L. Jones BA LLB
President and CEO
Helicopter Association of Canada
“Bringing the Industry Together”
130 Albert Street, Suite 500
Ottawa, Ontario K1P 5G4
Office: (613) 231-1110 x239
Cell: (613) 884-1422
Fax: (613) 369-5097
Website: http://www.h-a-c.ca
What licences do these foreign helicopter pilots fly with when in Canada ?
BULLSHIT.

When I am calmed down I will be able to respond in a proper manner. I cut part of it just to shorten my post.

JD
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Heliian
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Re: Foreign pilots and helicopter operators

Post by Heliian »

You know the industry is really slow when this is the only topic being discussed. This issue is nothing new, nor do people really care when things are booming. But, who is this foreign group? NZ's, Auzzies, europeans? are we being flooded by the chinese?

There is just not enough work for everyone right now.

The HAC and FJ should just dissolve and leave it to ourselves.

Consider me one of the 20%'rs
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Gilles Hudicourt
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Re: Foreign pilots and helicopter operators

Post by Gilles Hudicourt »

DIVISION VII - PERSONNEL REQUIREMENTS

Flight Crew Member Qualifications

702.65 No air operator shall permit a person to act and no person shall act as a flight crew member in an aircraft unless the person

(a) holds the licence and ratings required by Part IV or, where the air operator is the holder of an air operator certificate issued in accordance with the North American Free Trade Agreement, the equivalent foreign licence and ratings;
Translation : to fly as pilot under Part 702, one needs a Canadian Licence, unless one is flying for a US or Mexican Operator who is working in Canada under NAFTA.

These foreign pilots who fly helicopters in Canada as temporary workers, do they have a Transport Canada licence or do they get FLVCs from TC ?

So CAR 702.65 (a) says no FLVCs under part 702. Part IV allows some exceptions:
421.07 Validation of Foreign Licences

(1) Issue of Foreign Licence Validation Certificate

(a) A Foreign Licence Validation Certificate shall be issued to an applicant who provides the following:

(i) a foreign licence valid under the laws of a contracting state and valid for the privileges requested; and

(ii) a letter requesting issue of the Foreign Licence Validation Certificate and specifying the purpose for which the foreign licence is to be validated.

(2) Purposes For Which Foreign Licence Validation Certificates May Be Issued

(a) for the holder to undergo a flight test;

(b) for private recreational flying;

(c) for ferry of an aircraft registered in Canada to or from a foreign country;

(d) for the holder to give type rating training on an aircraft registered in Canada to the registered owner, or to Canadian flight crew employed by the registered owner;

(e) for the holder to receive training in a Canadian registered aircraft;

(f) for operation of aircraft registered in a foreign state under the operating certificate of a Canadian carrier provided that the privileges are limited to the type of aircraft being operated;

(g) for operation of Canadian aircraft on Canadian commercial air services in urgent circumstances; such as fire suppression operations, emergency agricultural and forestry aerial application, airlift in relief of domestic natural disasters, and search and rescue operations;

(h) for commercial air services operated entirely within a foreign country where pilots holding a licence from that country may have their licence validated for operation of Canadian registered aircraft in that country;

(i) for the operation of aircraft registered in Canada on lease to foreign carriers;

(j) for reasons other than those mentioned above where approval may be given if, in the opinion of the Minister, it is in the public interest and not likely to affect aviation safety.
You will notice that revenue flights for purposes not mentioned in 421.07(2) is not allowed.

The Minister has been issuing FLVCs under 421.07(2(j) by the hundreds every year. This practice must stop!

The original version of 421.07(2)(j) specified that this clause could only be used in "exceptional cases". That condition was quietly removed from the English version of the CAR but they forgot to modify the French version which is still valid:
j) lorsqu'une demande a la prétention de servir l'intérêt public canadien pour des raisons non pas visées par les circonstances pressantes énumérées ci-dessus, le ministre peut accorder une approbation dans les cas exceptionnels.
The French version of CAR 421.07(2)(j) is valid and in effect.

Edit: just to be clear.

"Foreign pilots" in this discussion has nothing to do with the national origin of the pilot.
We mean someone who is neither a Canadian Citizen, nor a Landed Immigrant, and who comes to work in Canada as a temporary worker using the TFWP, when Canadian employers claim they need to import foreign pilots for lack of qualified Canadian pilots.
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The Mole
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Re: Foreign pilots and helicopter operators

Post by The Mole »

Foreign pilots all get canadian license. One flight school in BC specializes in conversions.

The holiday working visa program is how many foreign pilots enter canada. Its good for 2years and can be extended. No restriction on the type of work. Commonwealth countries have reciprocal agreements but canada's is very generous. Put 500hrs on your resume, and work for discount wages and pay for all your training, and you will probably get a job fighting fires in On-terrible. Not all foreign pilots come and work for discount wages, some come with relevant experience, end up staying and making a life here. These pilots i don't see as the problem.

Working holiday Visa, get yours todays
https://www.whpcanada.org.au
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Gilles Hudicourt
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Re: Foreign pilots and helicopter operators

Post by Gilles Hudicourt »

I mailed two access to Information requests today:

One to HRSDC asking to see all Labor Market Opinion (LMO) requests from all Helicopter Operators in the past 10 years for importing foreign pilots and another to Transport Canada, to ask to see all FLVC applications in the last 10 years for Helicopter pilots for Commercial Flying in Canada.

I'll keep you posted on the replies I get.
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Re: Foreign pilots and helicopter operators

Post by snoopy »

I'd recommend contacting Bruce Campion-Smith with the Toronto Star on this new angle if you haven't already. As you're likely aware he's contributed a lot of time and resources to researching and writing about aviation safety issues as well as other aviation-related topics that need public attention towards the truth. As well, he can likely help you with any resistance including censorship/sanitization (if the government tries that tactic) with respect to your Access to Information Requests.
Way to keep the pressure on, and thank you for everything you are doing!
Best Regards,
Kirsten B.
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Gilles Hudicourt
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Re: Foreign pilots and helicopter operators

Post by Gilles Hudicourt »

I've been receiving independent reports about commercial helicopter operators in Canada making extensive use of foreign pilots and possibly also of Foreign Licence Validation Certificates (FLVCs).
When an FLVC is applied for Commercial Reasons, the TC requirements are that the application cannot be done by the pilot himself but by the Helicopter Certificate Holder.

So I sent an ATIP request to Transport Canada asking to see all the FLVC applications made by Helicopter Certificate holders for foreign licensed pilots in the last 10 years, to get an idea the actual number of foreign licensed helicopter pilots taking jobs away from Canadian licensed helicopter pilots.

I just received a phone call from a Transport Canada ATIP Coordinator.

He stated that due to the time required to search for the data I was requesting, that TC would have to bill me $3820 for the requested information.

I must state that back in Feb 2013, they sent me a bill for over $300 for another search also related to FLVCs. I I paid that bill by credit card the very same day I received it, and that today, 7 months later, I still have not received the requested information. It is now the subject of a complaint to the Information Commissioner.

Gilles Hudicourt
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Re: Foreign pilots and helicopter operators

Post by snoopy »

Again, Bruce Campion-Smith can help you generate some exposure, and likely some public outrage over that.
That's BS!!!!
Cheers,
Kirsten B.
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Gilles Hudicourt
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Re: Foreign pilots and helicopter operators

Post by Gilles Hudicourt »

Access to Information at Transport Canada

Check out this jewel

https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/105 ... C%20TC.pdf
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snoopy
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Re: Foreign pilots and helicopter operators

Post by snoopy »

Well Gilles,

This proves you are on to something big, and you are going to need backing to overcome the bureaucracy, speed up the process and expose the truth before you die of old age or give up. If there are that many records that it will take so many hours to produce them, and/or the government is trying to stonewall you in order to hide something else, then you should have no trouble getting support if you are talking to the right people. Bearing in mind of course many people outside the government are squirming in their seats with all your questions and will not want you to succeed either.

Cheers,
Kirsten B.
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Re: Foreign pilots and helicopter operators

Post by ragbagflyer »

Hundred of hours required to find those numbers? So what they are saying is that the information must be somewhere on the Transport Canada website?
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Re: Foreign pilots and helicopter operators

Post by nothingbeatsflying »

I'd be pretty interested in the results of your research Gilles. I know too many guys who aren't able to get a start on their hours. Meanwhile someone with an accent shows up and mysteriously gets hired even though the operator was all tooled up for the season. It boggles my mind.
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Gilles Hudicourt
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Re: Foreign pilots and helicopter operators

Post by Gilles Hudicourt »

I got a response today from ESDC. I had asked for all LMO applications received by ESDC for pilots in the course of 2013. Because they received my request on Oct 25, 2013, the applications received after that date in 2013 will not appear here. In short, several Canadian helicopter companies imported foreign helicopter pilots in Canada during the course of 2013.

Canadian Helicopters Limited
Construction Helicopters Inc. (a US company which needed pilots for work in Newfoundland)
Niagara Helicopters Ltd
Prism Helicopters Ltd
Trinity Helicopters
Heli Source Ltd
Quest Helicopters Ltd
Aurora Helicopters Ltd
Fast Trucking Services Ltd
Valhalia Helicopters Ltd
TCF Van Productions
Coulson Aircrane Ltd
Pacific Western Helicopters Ltd
London Air Services Ltd


I might have missed a few. The file is large and I don't have time right now.

In essence: CANADIAN HELICOPTER PILOTS ARE GETTING SCREWED BIG TIME.

Get your act together guys and gals and defend your profession. I won't do it for you. But I will help whomever decides to stand up.

Gilles Hudicourt

https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/105 ... 202013.pdf
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