Esop reduction..

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Malfunction
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Esop reduction..

Post by Malfunction » Thu Mar 14, 2019 1:14 pm

Employee esop is being reduced from 60% to 25%. Well what's the point anymore?
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47north
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Re: Esop reduction..

Post by 47north » Thu Mar 14, 2019 1:21 pm

Malfunction wrote:
Thu Mar 14, 2019 1:14 pm
Employee esop is being reduced from 60% to 25%. Well what's the point anymore?
Not for the pilots. Still 60% as per the MOS.
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Dash.Trash
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Re: Esop reduction..

Post by Dash.Trash » Thu Mar 14, 2019 2:00 pm

47north wrote:
Thu Mar 14, 2019 1:21 pm
Malfunction wrote:
Thu Mar 14, 2019 1:14 pm
Employee esop is being reduced from 60% to 25%. Well what's the point anymore?
Not for the pilots. Still 60% as per the MOS.
It’s 25 + 20% (as per MOS). So 45%.
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dhc#
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Re: Esop reduction..

Post by dhc# » Thu Mar 14, 2019 2:36 pm

So the pilots agree to a long term contract and then Chorus conveniently reduces this "benefit" shortly thereafter ?
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Outlaw58
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Re: Esop reduction..

Post by Outlaw58 » Thu Mar 14, 2019 3:03 pm

Here's another way to look at it...

If we didn't sign the contract, nothing prevented the company from reducing ESOP anyway and we'd be at 25% instead of 45%...

Glass half-full, glass Half empty

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Rowdy
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Re: Esop reduction..

Post by Rowdy » Thu Mar 14, 2019 3:49 pm

'Industry standard'.

The farce of this MOS continues.
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GhostRider6
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Re: Esop reduction..

Post by GhostRider6 » Thu Mar 14, 2019 4:48 pm

What? C’mon!

Two weeks is more than ample time to decide 17 years !!

What’s wrong with you?
( hopefully you Catch the sarcasm)
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Malfunction
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Re: Esop reduction..

Post by Malfunction » Thu Mar 14, 2019 5:22 pm

Jazz is not a career company for me anymore. It's great dont get me wrong. but the company is clear they dont want people to stay here.
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Yycjetdriver
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Re: Esop reduction..

Post by Yycjetdriver » Thu Mar 14, 2019 5:35 pm

Just negotiate a higher esop in the next contract. (Also note my sarcasm).

:rolleyes:
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Re: Esop reduction..

Post by PostmasterGeneral » Thu Mar 14, 2019 8:58 pm

Malfunction wrote:
Thu Mar 14, 2019 5:22 pm
Jazz is not a career company for me anymore. It's great dont get me wrong. but the company is clear they dont want people to stay here.
You’ve already applied at AC anyways so what’s the problem? You’ll be gone soon enough.

ESOP was never guaranteed, so if a 15% cut is what makes it no longer a “career” place for you then so be it.
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mbav8r
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Re: Esop reduction..

Post by mbav8r » Thu Mar 14, 2019 9:52 pm

First of all when the ESOP was introduced it was at 33 1/3% match, then up to 60 for the last few years.
November 2017, a message to all employees from Joe Randal regarding the ESOP stated that although the board approved another year of 60% match, the average employer match is 25-30% and a “move to a more market competitive level is expected in the future”
I don’t know about you but when the CEO tells the employees over a year in advance to expect a reduction, expect the friggen reduction.
Our new contract included a 20% over the ESOP for other employees up to a max of 60%, when I saw that in the MOS, guess what I knew there was going to be a reduction, why else would our negotiations include a top up.
If this caught you off guard, you weren’t paying attention, 45% is enough for me to stay in, if it dropped to the bare 20% which would mean no other employees were getting anything, I’d be out.
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Malfunction
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Re: Esop reduction..

Post by Malfunction » Fri Mar 15, 2019 2:42 am

mbav8r wrote:
Thu Mar 14, 2019 9:52 pm
First of all when the ESOP was introduced it was at 33 1/3% match, then up to 60 for the last few years.
November 2017, a message to all employees from Joe Randal regarding the ESOP stated that although the board approved another year of 60% match, the average employer match is 25-30% and a “move to a more market competitive level is expected in the future”
I don’t know about you but when the CEO tells the employees over a year in advance to expect a reduction, expect the friggen reduction.
Our new contract included a 20% over the ESOP for other employees up to a max of 60%, when I saw that in the MOS, guess what I knew there was going to be a reduction, why else would our negotiations include a top up.
If this caught you off guard, you weren’t paying attention, 45% is enough for me to stay in, if it dropped to the bare 20% which would mean no other employees were getting anything, I’d be out.
I believe when it started it was 100% match.
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mixturerich
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Re: Esop reduction..

Post by mixturerich » Fri Mar 15, 2019 2:49 am

Malfunction wrote:
Thu Mar 14, 2019 5:22 pm
Jazz is not a career company for me anymore. It's great dont get me wrong. but the company is clear they dont want people to stay here.
Nah, they just know people will leave anyways. Still a good company to work for. Not sure what you were expecting?
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Malfunction
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Re: Esop reduction..

Post by Malfunction » Fri Mar 15, 2019 4:00 am

mixturerich wrote:
Fri Mar 15, 2019 2:49 am
Malfunction wrote:
Thu Mar 14, 2019 5:22 pm
Jazz is not a career company for me anymore. It's great dont get me wrong. but the company is clear they dont want people to stay here.
Nah, they just know people will leave anyways. Still a good company to work for. Not sure what you were expecting?
Never said it was a bad company to work for. For myself and I can only speak for myself it's not a place to hang my hat. Cheers
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AZ382
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Re: Esop reduction..

Post by AZ382 » Fri Mar 15, 2019 12:28 pm

It's when the CEO states that the reduction in match is due to concessions they had to take in fees and performance incentive payments from AC due to this 17 CPA that it makes it feel like a stab in the back. So the Jazz pilot group drops 15% to 45 while the rest not locked into a collective agreement take a 35% hit.
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Re: Esop reduction..

Post by Rowdy » Fri Mar 15, 2019 9:34 pm

mbav8r wrote:
Thu Mar 14, 2019 9:52 pm
First of all when the ESOP was introduced it was at 33 1/3% match, then up to 60 for the last few years.
'This is above industry standard, you're lucky to get it' Then we negotiate something in our contract and they slash it. No surprises there. Most of us saw it coming. I actually laughed when I read the blurb in the MOS. Most of the FO's can't afford to contribute to it anyways..

BTW- AC is 33.33%. WJ is 100% (as is WJE). Some of our other AIRLINE comparators are higher now, but a lot of the non airline ones are lower. Whatever. When cane we up the percentage of purchase? We can now go up to 20% can we not? Instead of the paltry 6%.

I'll stay in til we lose the dividend, or the match drops to our negotiated minimum. Then I'm out and I'll dump all my shares. Zero loyalties.
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mbav8r
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Re: Esop reduction..

Post by mbav8r » Fri Mar 15, 2019 10:05 pm

Rowdy wrote:
Fri Mar 15, 2019 9:34 pm
mbav8r wrote:
Thu Mar 14, 2019 9:52 pm
First of all when the ESOP was introduced it was at 33 1/3% match, then up to 60 for the last few years.
'This is above industry standard, you're lucky to get it' Then we negotiate something in our contract and they slash it. No surprises there. Most of us saw it coming. I actually laughed when I read the blurb in the MOS. Most of the FO's can't afford to contribute to it anyways..

BTW- AC is 33.33%. WJ is 100% (as is WJE). Some of our other AIRLINE comparators are higher now, but a lot of the non airline ones are lower. Whatever. When cane we up the percentage of purchase? We can now go up to 20% can we not? Instead of the paltry 6%.

I'll stay in til we lose the dividend, or the match drops to our negotiated minimum. Then I'm out and I'll dump all my shares. Zero loyalties.
Yes but WJ/WJE don’t have a pention, DC or otherwise, ESOP is the pension.
As for our contribution, it’s still 6% max
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Re: Esop reduction..

Post by daedalusx » Mon Mar 18, 2019 5:52 pm

Serves you right. You sold off the next generation of pilots purely in the hope of getting an AC seat that would have gotten anyways. Enjoys those C4 passes and having AC rampies bump you to the back of the slave ship when you’re deadheading.
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Re: Esop reduction..

Post by Malfunction » Mon Mar 18, 2019 9:09 pm

daedalusx wrote:
Mon Mar 18, 2019 5:52 pm
Serves you right. You sold off the next generation of pilots purely in the hope of getting an AC seat that would have gotten anyways. Enjoys those C4 passes and having AC rampies bump you to the back of the slave ship when you’re deadheading.
Why are you angry with the pilots. Its management who are pulling all the strings and have been cutting wages and passes
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Re: Esop reduction..

Post by daedalusx » Mon Mar 18, 2019 10:18 pm

Malfunction wrote:
Mon Mar 18, 2019 9:09 pm
daedalusx wrote:
Mon Mar 18, 2019 5:52 pm
Serves you right. You sold off the next generation of pilots purely in the hope of getting an AC seat that would have gotten anyways. Enjoys those C4 passes and having AC rampies bump you to the back of the slave ship when you’re deadheading.
Why are you angry with the pilots. Its management who are pulling all the strings and have been cutting wages and passes
Because it was the one time in so so many years that us as a pilot group had a chance to turns things around and set a positive trend and 72% of my peers took the cowardly way around. You don’t get what you’re worth, you get what you negotiate. There was a real threat in 2015 and I don’t blame the Jazz guys from signing that agreement as they had absolutely no leverage. This time it was different, we were bailing out Georgian in a middle of a pilot shortage and we sold out an entire generation of future pilots. I’m not angry at the pilots, just extremely disappointed. And BTW, bailing Georgian should have come at the cost of us getting real POS J class DH and C2s but our negotiation committee settled for the lone fat chick because they didn’t have the courage to go ask out the cute one.
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In twenty years time when your kids ask how you got into flying you want to be able to say "work and determination" not "I just kept taking money from your grandparents for type ratings until someone was stupid enough to give me a job"

hithere
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Re: Esop reduction..

Post by hithere » Tue Mar 19, 2019 9:11 am

Maybe if you had been on the negots committee through the back and forth of 2018 you might be more entitled to the disparaging remarks you are making. The AC spot for Jazz pilots is never guaranteed- I was given a PFO during the PML 1.0 process which was supposed to be a “sure thing”. The max 10% PFO rate that was negotiated in the last MOS is far better than the cherry picking selection process of PML 2.0 so that is a critical piece for post 2015 Jazz pilots. And there never was any cute chick offered only the fat one or go home with your d!ck in your hand. Calin doesn’t offer cute chicks to the pilots- have a look at the AC pilots forum on this very website- you will find the exact same vocal minority as yourself spewing vitriol at the last time they negotiated.
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Re: Esop reduction..

Post by Outlaw58 » Tue Mar 19, 2019 3:25 pm

daedalusx wrote:
Mon Mar 18, 2019 10:18 pm
Malfunction wrote:
Mon Mar 18, 2019 9:09 pm
daedalusx wrote:
Mon Mar 18, 2019 5:52 pm
Serves you right. You sold off the next generation of pilots purely in the hope of getting an AC seat that would have gotten anyways. Enjoys those C4 passes and having AC rampies bump you to the back of the slave ship when you’re deadheading.
Why are you angry with the pilots. Its management who are pulling all the strings and have been cutting wages and passes
Because it was the one time in so so many years that us as a pilot group had a chance to turns things around and set a positive trend and 72% of my peers took the cowardly way around. You don’t get what you’re worth, you get what you negotiate. There was a real threat in 2015 and I don’t blame the Jazz guys from signing that agreement as they had absolutely no leverage. This time it was different, we were bailing out Georgian in a middle of a pilot shortage and we sold out an entire generation of future pilots. I’m not angry at the pilots, just extremely disappointed. And BTW, bailing Georgian should have come at the cost of us getting real POS J class DH and C2s but our negotiation committee settled for the lone fat chick because they didn’t have the courage to go ask out the cute one.
Little bird told me there is going to be at least 1 vacancy on the negotiating committee....

Man-up and volunteer,.... you got my vote.

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Re: Esop reduction..

Post by Rowdy » Wed Mar 20, 2019 9:32 am

Outlaw58 wrote:
Tue Mar 19, 2019 3:25 pm

Little bird told me there is going to be at least 1 vacancy on the negotiating committee....

Man-up and volunteer,.... you got my vote.

58
We don't vote on the negotiating committee sadly...

I'm pretty sure two of them are off to AC now though and I wish them all the best.
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Re: Esop reduction..

Post by Yycjetdriver » Wed Mar 20, 2019 9:42 am

Rowdy wrote:
Wed Mar 20, 2019 9:32 am
Outlaw58 wrote:
Tue Mar 19, 2019 3:25 pm

Little bird told me there is going to be at least 1 vacancy on the negotiating committee....

Man-up and volunteer,.... you got my vote.

58
We don't vote on the negotiating committee sadly...

I'm pretty sure two of them are off to AC now though and I wish them all the best.
Allowing representatives to negotiate a record 17 year contract while knowing full well they only had to endure months of set contract. This blows my mind.
Not to mention the fact it’s fair to assume their number 1 priority during the negotiations would have nothing to do with the well being of their fellow aviators, but would be to rock zero boats in order to maintain their hances if not having to work under the very shit contract they are negotiating.
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Re: Esop reduction..

Post by 47north » Wed Mar 20, 2019 9:59 am

Yycjetdriver wrote:
Wed Mar 20, 2019 9:42 am
Rowdy wrote:
Wed Mar 20, 2019 9:32 am
Outlaw58 wrote:
Tue Mar 19, 2019 3:25 pm

Little bird told me there is going to be at least 1 vacancy on the negotiating committee....

Man-up and volunteer,.... you got my vote.

58
We don't vote on the negotiating committee sadly...

I'm pretty sure two of them are off to AC now though and I wish them all the best.
Allowing representatives to negotiate a record 17 year contract while knowing full well they only had to endure months of set contract. This blows my mind.
Not to mention the fact it’s fair to assume their number 1 priority during the negotiations would have nothing to do with the well being of their fellow aviators, but would be to rock zero boats in order to maintain their hances if not having to work under the very shit contract they are negotiating.
I thought you left Jazz. You seems rather obsessed with Jazz for someone that doesn't have a vested interest here.
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