New CPA and flowthrough to Air Canada?

[arcadia]

Not too many people in this thread have even seen the new TA and theirs a lot of crazy garbage being thrown around.

There is a second wider part to the flow agreement that I'm not going to be the first one to divulge online that takes place after the initial Jazz influx should this be ratified. The 80/20 split and minimum 495 are not fantasy numbers like encore flow through. Those numbers are written in legalese into the CPA itself, not the TA. Like TPB said its all contingent on a ridiculous amount of Jazz pilots putting there names on a list.

No one threw anyone under the bus and with AC hiring the way it is the guy that showed up to Jazz yesterday will flow to AC if his names on the list in 4-6 years which I think is very reasonable, probably ahead of the King Air driver duking it out for the last MAYBE 20% against the AC Captains children floating around out there. This hasn't been ratified and I have my doubts so all you guys pissed off because you think you'll be left out in the cold when the AC door closes can relax.

The fact that they already have the second round of flow planned means that even if this fails hiring from the regionals to foster demographic turnover is a long term financal stratagy that AC intends to employ. I promise you that none of the suits in the golden tower or on the board of directors gave even a passing thought to the feelings and aspirations of the 1900 pilots of the world or what some internet clowns think is "fair".



For the new hires they lose the DB pension and as the new hire demographic tends to skew more to the younger side now that is very much less likely to effect them. They also will recieve a more competitive wage, if you don't want it don't apply, if enough people don't apply they will raise the wages.

This is business.

"This is business" is easy to say when obviously you are going to fair a whole lot better then most in this deal. What is your position in this deal? Left/right seat at JAzz?
I hope when your turn comes you are passed over and left to rot at Jazz.

[teacher]

Of course not that's silly. I will however fight for better wages and working conditions until I either get them or forced to accept what comes down the pipe. Unfortunately, a "B" scale (Rouge and Georgian), lower wages for regional lift (Encore, Sky Regional and Georgian), DC pensions and final offer arbitration are all now a precedent. It will be an up hill battle but I will continue to fight it as long as I can.

I won't scuttle the ship but I won't sail merely down the river on it either.

Thanks for bringing that up and proving my point that I have not changed my opinions. All the things I mentioned ARE now an iron clad precedent with only Jazz left as the lone hold out until now. Our jobs have been directly threatened with "take this deal or it'll be a lot worse come 2020". We fought and now that everyone around us has given up or not even bothered to fight we are left to face the music.

I won't scuttle the ship to make a point and I won't AGAIN put my career and livelihood in jeopardy. Most folks at Jazz are middle aged with families or older many with a decade or so to retirement. This deal gets the upper guys out without a fuss, gives the middle to lower of the pack an out and replaces everyone within a decade with lower cost help. Ideal? Of course not. Chances of getting something better? ZERO! I have no intention of being the next Envoy and I doubt very much anybody at Jazz is in the mood for a suicide run with AC and Jazz management.

The hardest part about fighting is knowing when you've been beaten. Employment until retirement or lay off in 5 years. Use your head and stop trying to blame us for the industry's problems.

When the floor around you goes down it's impossible to stay where you are.

And by the way, it's not a "B" scale if the top end remains the same. You wanna see "B" scale? Check out Cathay. What are they on now? A "D" scale? What whores

Feel free to go to the better jobs at GGN, Encore and Sky Regional where you work more days for the same money with a fraction of the per diems, pension, benefits and CARs limits for work rules.

[arcadia]

Of course not that's silly. I will however fight for better wages and working conditions until I either get them or forced to accept what comes down the pipe. Unfortunately, a "B" scale (Rouge and Georgian), lower wages for regional lift (Encore, Sky Regional and Georgian), DC pensions and final offer arbitration are all now a precedent. It will be an up hill battle but I will continue to fight it as long as I can.

I won't scuttle the ship but I won't sail merely down the river on it either.

Thanks for bringing that up and proving my point that I have not changed my opinions. All the things I mentioned ARE now an iron clad precedent with only Jazz left as the lone hold out until now. Our jobs have been directly threatened with "take this deal or it'll be a lot worse come 2020". We fought and now that everyone around us has given up or not even bothered to fight we are left to face the music.

I won't scuttle the ship to make a point and I won't AGAIN put my career and livelihood in jeopardy. Most folks at Jazz are middle aged with families or older many with a decade or so to retirement. This deal gets the upper guys out without a fuss, gives the middle to lower of the pack an out and replaces everyone within a decade with lower cost help. Ideal? Of course not. Chances of getting something better? ZERO! I have no intention of being the next Envoy and I doubt very much anybody at Jazz is in the mood for a suicide run with AC and Jazz management.

The hardest part about fighting is knowing when you've been beaten. Employment until retirement or lay off in 5 years. Use your head and stop trying to blame us for the industry's problems.

When the floor around you goes down it's impossible to stay where you are.

And by the way, it's not a "B" scale if the top end remains the same. You wanna see "B" scale? Check out Cathay. What are they on now? A "D" scale? What whores

Feel free to go to the better jobs at GGN, Encore and Sky Regional where you work more days for the same money with a fraction of the per diems, pension, benefits and CARs limits for work rules.

Just noticed College of pilots web address as part of your sig.You just made my decision for me on wether I'll ever join. Is the bull crap you just posted what they preach over there? Man you guys are quite the bunch. Oh well when the industry is totally shot, thank yourselves.

[rxl]

Just noticed College of pilots web address as part of your sig.You just made my decision for me on wether I'll ever join. Is the bull crap you just posted what they preach over there? Man you guys are quite the bunch. Oh well when the industry is totally shot, thank yourselves.

No preaching here - just a very real, very serious question that we are all faced with right here right now -
Will the industry be a whole lot better if Jazz begins to issue lay off notices and 1300 pilots are on the street in 2020?

[arcadia]

Layoff notices? Last I heard which was two days ago, they are flying Capt. with Capt, because they don't have enough crews. I highly doubt they will layoff, why are they hiring right now then?

You all just see a free ticket to Mainline, when in actual fact only a select few will actually get it, then the remaining Jazz guys will be left to live in the mess you guys made. If you vote no with the big hiring boom thats about to happen next year, AC will clean house from Jazz, the only difference is, the guys at the bottom will get the shot, and JAzz will have to continue to pay the top brass the same money. Everyone will win, except the VP's etc.

If you are an F/O at JAzz and are considering a shot at AC you guys would be foolish to vote this through, vote it down and get your resume in at AC. You guys have always been the cream of the crop in regards to hiring qualifications at Mainline, every pit course since day one has had several in each class, what makes you think thats going to change?

[Mig29]

Before this escalates beyond "ridicules", lets all calm down and stop insulting each other who is responsible for the downward spiral in our industry.

My question is this: Why all the gloom and doom every time company offers us the agreement? Why take it or leave it? Why is further negotiation always "off the table"?

I'm not suggesting a strike as North American pilots have sailed past that game a long time ago. In fact the only ones who are still holding the ground so far are the Lufties':

German pilots' union Vereinigung Cockpit (VC) said it is likely to call for further strikes at Lufthansa as a long-running row continues. The dispute revolves around an early retirement scheme and Lufthansa's plans to expand its low cost operations to win back market share lost to the likes of Ryanair and easyJet, which are expanding in Germany. Ten strikes staged by VC last year cost the airline close to €200 million in operating profit and affected hundreds of thousands of passengers. In December, the pilots said they were prepared to enter mediation to resolve the dispute, but only if it included all areas of conflict with management. Lufthansa rejected that demand, however, saying it was willing to expand talks beyond just early retirement benefits, but that low cost expansion was not up for discussion. VC has now said further industrial action was "possible and likely" as it meets with its members in the coming weeks. Lufthansa's pilots oppose the way the airline is pushing through low cost expansion by using a small unit that is not subject to the same collective staff agreements as its Lufthansa and Germanwings units. Lufthansa reiterated its stance that it needed to make structural changes to help its passenger airlines compete with rivals
Source: Reuters

All I'm saying is lets think about this TA and try to negotiate, so we don't further degrade the entry level jobs for our future colleagues. Why is negotiating a "bad thing"?

[Mig29]

No preaching here - just a very real, very serious question that we are all faced with right here right now -
Will the industry be a whole lot better if Jazz begins to issue lay off notices and 1300 pilots are on the street in 2020?

With all due respect, but I just don't see 1300 pilots on the street in 2020? Has anyone looked at the projected block hours for the next 5-6 years?? It's about 50,000-60,000hrs MORE then the min. guarantee! That sounds too me like there is going to be a demand.

Teacher, Envoy sure took the bullet - but you have to understand that in US there was an over supply of regional airlines who were competing for the market. Who has the capacity in Canada to pick up all that lift of over 350,000hrs/yr? Sky? GGN? EVAS? They would have to get Porter and Encore on board as well!

[rxl]

That's if the thing ratifies. Remember the new CPA is contingent on TA ratification and sufficient subscription to the PMA.
I agree further negotiation would be great, but the way the whole package has been presented, it appears that's no longer an option.

[TopperHarley]

AC hired a lot of Jazz guys over the last few years of their hiring cycle. It didn't matter what their seniority was, AC hired whomever they wanted. The problem I see with this flow is that the newhires and junior guys may not even be able to apply for an "off-the-street" position because the flow will go by seniority (which is fair); however, because the number of spots is limited, that means the junior guys may not be able to even qualify for the flow. Guys that would've had a good shot at getting an interview otherwise, but now won't be able to.

I'm hearing that pilots who flow will be able to keep their current pay scale and that Jazz will "top off" the difference in pay between what AC offers for Year 1 ($50,000ish) and what they were making at Jazz. If this is the case, then there is incentive for captains and senior FOs to take the flow. It's a bit of a double-edged sword; if the flow conditions are really good (ex. transfer seniority, keep your current pay, etc), then it will go senior. But if the flow conditions aren't favourable, then there's no real point in having a flow to begin with and your chances of going to AC as an off-the-street hire may even be better without the flow at all if you're a mid-seniority to junior FO.

Whatever the case, I hope for the best for you guys. Jazz was great to me while I was there (08-11) and I hope the standard can be maintained.

[sstaurus]

My main point is (all I was trying to say) is it's very scary for an outsider to hear about the flow through. Guys who have put their time on 1900s up north, waiting for the air canada phone call just got a kick in the nuts. Their chances of getting hired just dropped 80% minimum. They now are forced into the regional business and delay their career progression significantly. These are the pilots that have avoided encore, ggn and sky regional and didn't participate in the regional spiral.

And even if Jazz is still the top dog for AC Regionals and that's the route someone is now going to take, the pay for the first 3-4 years has dropped significantly. So on top of the career delay, their pay has also gone down. Another step has been added to the career path for these guys and that's a tough pill to swallow. I don't see why anyone would choose to go to Jazz or any airline route now unless you really, really want to fly for a Major because now you have no choice.

Once again, I'm not saying Jazz has thrown the rest of the industry under the bus because they are not the sole reason it has gone this way. I believe they are now the final nail in the coffin of this downward spiral. Hopefully on a positive note, future pilots will have a clear career progression and avoid the constant set backs many pilots are seeing.

Agreed. Personally I'm inclined to take my chances with the 20%, or scrap the majors idea all together if possible. For those at the 703/4 level already, it really sucks. But perhaps in the future, it will make sense, since everyone will be going right seat from some college with an 'MPL', whatever that is anyway.

[rxl]

"Lufthansa's plans to expand its low cost operations to win back market share lost to the likes of Ryanair and easyJet, which are expanding in Germany. ... Lufthansa's pilots oppose the way the airline is pushing through low cost expansion by using a small unit that is not subject to the same collective staff agreements as its Lufthansa and Germanwings units. Lufthansa reiterated its stance that it needed to make structural changes to help its passenger airlines compete with rivals"
Source: Reuters

Sound familiar?

[teacher]

Layoff notices? Last I heard which was two days ago, they are flying Capt. with Capt, because they don't have enough crews. I highly doubt they will layoff, why are they hiring right now then?

You all just see a free ticket to Mainline, when in actual fact only a select few will actually get it, then the remaining Jazz guys will be left to live in the mess you guys made. If you vote no with the big hiring boom thats about to happen next year, AC will clean house from Jazz, the only difference is, the guys at the bottom will get the shot, and JAzz will have to continue to pay the top brass the same money. Everyone will win, except the VP's etc.

If you are an F/O at JAzz and are considering a shot at AC you guys would be foolish to vote this through, vote it down and get your resume in at AC. You guys have always been the cream of the crop in regards to hiring qualifications at Mainline, every pit course since day one has had several in each class, what makes you think thats going to change?

You have now clearly shown that you have absolutely, positively no idea what the hell you are talking about. My responses to your rediculous comments and untruths ends now. Have a nice career.

[AllClutch]

There is no cap on the total amount to go to AC in this TA.
Only a minimum which is that 495 pilots must leave the Jazz property whether it be to AC or off into the sunset. Thus the reason for the 495 reserved spots. Everyone that wants to go can go. of course in order of seniority.

[arcadia]

Layoff notices? Last I heard which was two days ago, they are flying Capt. with Capt, because they don't have enough crews. I highly doubt they will layoff, why are they hiring right now then?

You all just see a free ticket to Mainline, when in actual fact only a select few will actually get it, then the remaining Jazz guys will be left to live in the mess you guys made. If you vote no with the big hiring boom thats about to happen next year, AC will clean house from Jazz, the only difference is, the guys at the bottom will get the shot, and JAzz will have to continue to pay the top brass the same money. Everyone will win, except the VP's etc.

If you are an F/O at JAzz and are considering a shot at AC you guys would be foolish to vote this through, vote it down and get your resume in at AC. You guys have always been the cream of the crop in regards to hiring qualifications at Mainline, every pit course since day one has had several in each class, what makes you think thats going to change?

You have now clearly shown that you have absolutely, positively no idea what the hell you are talking about. My responses to your rediculous comments and untruths ends now. Have a nice career.

What part about my above post in untrue? Capt. are flying with Capt. The flow through is targeted at Captains, not F/O's...at least not junior ones.
Who are the usual candidates from JAzz that get hired at Mainline under normal circumstances? Captains? I think not.

So I stand by my post, if the agreement was squashed, the junior F/O's will be in the driver's seat and have a way better shot at AC and there will be zero layoff's at Jazz. Jazz can't keep up with the flow through they have now with WJ, Encore,AT,etc.

Everyone that wants to go can go can they? How stupid do you think people are man?

[arcadia]

Teacher and Allclutch ,

Clearly these two are the first two off the property trying to get through the interviews.

[rxl]

I get the distinct impression from a number of posters in this thread that they sincerely think that the pilots of an airline that employs 1,300+ of their peers (not to mention some 3,700 other employees who stand to be negatively affected in all of this) should turn down a crucial tentative agreement so that those posters MIGHT have better individual odds of being hired at Air Canada.

Their arrogance breathtaking.

[rhythm101]

Teacher and Allclutch ,

Clearly these two are the first two off the property trying to get through the interviews.

CONGRATULATIONS, you have just proven that you are the stupidest, most ignorant poster on this website, and that is saying something. Your parents must be proud!

[arcadia]

I highly doubt that, especially after reading through your past 25 post.
Care to enlighten me why you feel this way? You telling me these two aren't in favourable positions if this flow through agreement happens?

[rudder]

For those looking to work for Jazz and feel starting pay must go up - simply vote with your wallet and do not apply. The law of supply and demand will force Jazz to either park planes and forgo revenue (and profit) from AC under the CPA or cause Jazz to reevaluate starting pay in order to become a prospective pilots first choice for employment.

As for the proposed Jazz pilot preferential hiring system at AC - it is going to facilitate the movement of hundreds of Jazz pilots to AC over the next few years. For the doomsayers predicting that it is just another facade to permit rejection of Jazz pilot applications, you will be disappointed. Some applicants will be unsuccesful but the vast majority will receive employment offers. And that is because this is a system that AC wants and that provides benefits to AC when maximized. Many of the pilots that will fill 80% of the new-hire groundschool spots at AC have been flying AC passengers around for two decades or longer.

The rules of the game just changed. Some favourably - some unfavourably. Welcome to commercial aviation in Canada. It is never boring.

[TAWS]

I highly doubt that, especially after reading through your past 25 post.
Care to enlighten me why you feel this way? You telling me these two aren't in favourable positions if this flow through agreement happens?

arcadia....

Seems like other than this thread the majority of your 44 posts are in a thread called "Air Canada Pool".....

Pissed off about the flow through agreement?....Looks like you've been posting in that thread for quite some time....this agreement is a real wrinkle in your plans huh?.....a no vote would help YOUR cause I bet?

Smoke and Mirrors....