New CPA and flowthrough to Air Canada?

Discuss topics relating to Jazz Aviation LP.

Moderators: ahramin, sky's the limit, Sulako, North Shore

Post Reply
Message
Author
Splash
Rank 2
Rank 2
Posts: 64
Joined: Mon Jan 21, 2013 5:23 pm

Re: New CPA and flowthrough to Air Canada?

#251 Post by Splash » Fri Jan 23, 2015 5:54 pm

Squid wrote:What would the pure hourly rate be for a starting FO? Based off what block? Is the reserve guarantee less?
I don't think it's fair to count a shoe allowance and perdiem as to the bottom line of income. That allowance is meant for your food and shoes....unless you eat cookies all day and wear old crappy looking shoes for 5 years. Essentially what I gather is alpa cut the pie up and the mec decided to send some of that money to top up salaries during flow vs keeping the status quo for a new hire. Is that fair to say teacher?
I don't have a horse in the race. In respect to to top-up,it's been posted that the money is ultimately coming from AC as part of the flow-thru agreement with Chorus. What's happening to aviation in Canada is no surprise if you've been watching what has been occurring in the US for years. Thinking it wasn't ever going to happen here would have been foolish.
---------- ADS -----------
  

aviator242
Rank 0
Rank 0
Posts: 10
Joined: Thu Jan 05, 2012 5:29 pm

Re: New CPA and flowthrough to Air Canada?

#252 Post by aviator242 » Fri Jan 23, 2015 6:03 pm

When is the ratification vote?
---------- ADS -----------
  

TrailerParkBoy
Rank 4
Rank 4
Posts: 205
Joined: Tue Apr 12, 2005 8:48 pm

Re: New CPA and flowthrough to Air Canada?

#253 Post by TrailerParkBoy » Fri Jan 23, 2015 7:50 pm

Canoehead wrote:NBG also helps. And with the new TA, unlimited WDO's (1.5x).
I think this is beneficial for the captains more than the FOs!
---------- ADS -----------
  

User avatar
Canoehead
Rank 8
Rank 8
Posts: 850
Joined: Wed Jan 05, 2005 11:08 pm
Location: YEE 220 @ 4

Re: New CPA and flowthrough to Air Canada?

#254 Post by Canoehead » Sat Jan 24, 2015 8:35 pm

You mean the TA overall?

Because NBG would affect both pilots, and the 1.5 factor is of equal value to Captains and FO's.

Not sure I get your comment.
---------- ADS -----------
  

teacher
Rank 10
Rank 10
Posts: 2380
Joined: Thu Feb 19, 2004 3:25 pm

Re: New CPA and flowthrough to Air Canada?

#255 Post by teacher » Sun Jan 25, 2015 7:07 am

This entire deal has been set up for one reason and one reason only. To save Air Canada money over the long term. They are the biggest benficiary of this entire process.

When all the details of the TA and flow through are released you will see that this PMA was definetly what ALPA called the "carrot and the stick". Not all rainbows and dollar signs as many non Jazz folks seem to think.
---------- ADS -----------
  
http://www.collegeofpilots.ca/

Squid
Rank 4
Rank 4
Posts: 260
Joined: Fri Mar 17, 2006 3:35 pm
Location: Timmins

Re: New CPA and flowthrough to Air Canada?

#256 Post by Squid » Sun Jan 25, 2015 7:27 am

When they were cutting up the chunk of money I'm wondering what the reasoning was behind lowering the starting wage. Why did alpa let it go this way? After all this time of being what was perceived to be the crusader in the Canadian industry. So where did they put the money instead of starting wages?
---------- ADS -----------
  

socrates
Rank 2
Rank 2
Posts: 91
Joined: Sun Sep 25, 2005 9:15 am
Location: canada

Re: New CPA and flowthrough to Air Canada?

#257 Post by socrates » Sun Jan 25, 2015 7:51 am

The reason they let this go is because all other contract provisions were made equal across the pilot group. Same benefits same allowances same perdiems.

The group took a hit in order for the new hires to have everything else in line with the remainder of the group.

The justification in the wage rate cut was that now with the continued movement a new hire will see the left seat in about 4-5 years maybe less. Which would still put them in a hire pay rate then someone on the property today with equivalent years of service.

Nothing could be done about the pension not many employers are providing defined benefit plans anymore.

As for take home pay.

36/hour * 82(average) = approximately $1850 take home after dedcutions.

per diems average $84/ per day $1000-$1200 per month.

There is also the Employee share ownership plan and profit sharing plan which would presently add about another months pay
to your pocket.

As was said earlier lots of opportunity for overtime and anything over 85 hours pays overtime.

Still the best scheduling and work rules of any employer.
---------- ADS -----------
  

teacher
Rank 10
Rank 10
Posts: 2380
Joined: Thu Feb 19, 2004 3:25 pm

Re: New CPA and flowthrough to Air Canada?

#258 Post by teacher » Sun Jan 25, 2015 8:57 am

Squid wrote:When they were cutting up the chunk of money I'm wondering what the reasoning was behind lowering the starting wage. Why did alpa let it go this way? After all this time of being what was perceived to be the crusader in the Canadian industry. So where did they put the money instead of starting wages?
What Socrates said is all correct. Also, as I mentioned in a previous post realistically cutting someone's pay in the last few years of their career during their peak earning years prior to retirement is a not only a hard pill to swallow but potentially detrimental to someone's post working years. People at the bottom of the list often left within 6 months to 2 years as well so investing in that group provided few benefits to the company where as if someone stayed their pay went up faster after a couple years. As well, with this agreement people will get upgraded much faster OR flow to Air Canada.

Fair deal? No, not for anyone except maybe those about to leave which is why it's structured this way to make it easier for those to leave the company both senior and junior pilots. Cutting a senior pilot's salary a few year before retirement means that they will be forced to stay longer and therefore defeats Air Canda's goal of getting rid of those on the current pay scale.
---------- ADS -----------
  
http://www.collegeofpilots.ca/

Mig29
Rank (9)
Rank (9)
Posts: 1213
Joined: Thu Aug 12, 2004 7:47 pm

Re: New CPA and flowthrough to Air Canada?

#259 Post by Mig29 » Sun Jan 25, 2015 9:53 am

Ok, so how much pay loss would each one of guys on the property if they took a $1-2 cut in order to keep the bottom pay rates the same? Simple math says about $80-160/month, if you use 80hr monthly block. So after taxes that would be a cut of anywhere from $30-80 depending on what tax bracket do you fall in. Is that a huge penalty?

Not saying I agree or not, all I'm saying, is that a high price to pay for keeping the integrity of our industry leading contract?
---------- ADS -----------
  

Squid
Rank 4
Rank 4
Posts: 260
Joined: Fri Mar 17, 2006 3:35 pm
Location: Timmins

Re: New CPA and flowthrough to Air Canada?

#260 Post by Squid » Sun Jan 25, 2015 10:05 am

Fair enough but just from where I look in it seems fairly consessionary for an agreement and sets the tone (poorly) for a new hire which is the future. Alpa pooped the bed
---------- ADS -----------
  

rudder
Rank (9)
Rank (9)
Posts: 1580
Joined: Wed Mar 08, 2006 12:10 pm

Re: New CPA and flowthrough to Air Canada?

#261 Post by rudder » Sun Jan 25, 2015 1:20 pm

Squid wrote:Fair enough but just from where I look in it seems fairly consessionary for an agreement and sets the tone (poorly) for a new hire which is the future. Alpa pooped the bed
History has shown that some of the most poorly spent bargaining capital has been spent on new-hire pay rates at a CPA carrier. Despite the Jazz pilots efforts to set that bar high, the greatest turnover was still in year 1/2/3 tenure pilots. Those are the facts. I guess that a CPA carrier is no longer perceived as a career job, particularly by the generally younger cadre of pilots.

If and when Jazz realizes that there is not much interest in what they are offering, market forces will prevail. Things were thinning out in the Encore app stack until a WJ seniority number was added to the conditions of employment at Encore. This will follow the same tack if Jazz find themselves with aircraft and no pilots to fly them.

It is a sellers market for pilots even if most of the CPA carriers in Canada do not choose to believe it.
---------- ADS -----------
  

ourkid2000
Rank 5
Rank 5
Posts: 389
Joined: Sun Jul 24, 2005 11:11 pm

Re: New CPA and flowthrough to Air Canada?

#262 Post by ourkid2000 » Sun Jan 25, 2015 2:00 pm

The justification in the wage rate cut was that now with the continued movement a new hire will see the left seat in about 4-5 years maybe less. Which would still put them in a hire pay rate then someone on the property today with equivalent years of service.
I've said this before....

Ahh, after all these years I can't believe that airlines can still "work" employees and they actually buy it. They're gonna dangle that stuff in front of the new hires like a dirt farmer dangles a carrot in front of a mule............like a shark fisherman with a bucket of .........Like a shrimp farmer.....
---------- ADS -----------
  

Mig29
Rank (9)
Rank (9)
Posts: 1213
Joined: Thu Aug 12, 2004 7:47 pm

Re: New CPA and flowthrough to Air Canada?

#263 Post by Mig29 » Sun Jan 25, 2015 2:52 pm

What happens if those predictions of fast advancement fall in the water??? Economy tanks, and now we just created 4 extra pay levels for new comers to even get on par with current year 1 F/O's?? And on top of that, any or minimal movement continuous for unforeseen number of years? (as was the case in the last few years)....then can we blame the bottom guys trying to jump the ship as fast as possible to other carriers? I can't.

But, you create a fair pay scale system and these guys just might stay at Jazz, despite the setbacks in upgrading times. To prove the point, you have many senior F/O's today who are still with Jazz due to fairly respectable contract in place and are willing to ride it out.....
---------- ADS -----------
  

rocket81
Rank 2
Rank 2
Posts: 61
Joined: Fri Jun 13, 2014 12:46 am

Re: New CPA and flowthrough to Air Canada?

#264 Post by rocket81 » Sun Jan 25, 2015 3:34 pm

Those left seats fast advancement and AC future positions are short term bargain to pass the proposition.

AC offers a few seats they will have to give anyway and they reduce their costs on the long term.
Negociate a raise in WAWCONs very hard, lose it very easy.

Long term = regional WAWCONs are only going down.
---------- ADS -----------
  

rxl
Rank 6
Rank 6
Posts: 451
Joined: Tue Jan 08, 2013 6:17 am
Location: Terminal 4

Re: New CPA and flowthrough to Air Canada?

#265 Post by rxl » Sun Jan 25, 2015 5:02 pm

Canoehead wrote:You mean the TA overall?

Because NBG would affect both pilots, and the 1.5 factor is of equal value to Captains and FO's.

Not sure I get your comment.
I think that the point would be that there is no bar that I'm aware of to captains bidding open flying in the right seat whereas an F/O cannot bid for flying in the left. Captains theoretically have double the overtime opportunities.
---------- ADS -----------
  

teacher
Rank 10
Rank 10
Posts: 2380
Joined: Thu Feb 19, 2004 3:25 pm

Re: New CPA and flowthrough to Air Canada?

#266 Post by teacher » Mon Jan 26, 2015 6:13 am

History has shown that some of the most poorly spent bargaining capital has been spent on new-hire pay rates at a CPA carrier. Despite the Jazz pilots efforts to set that bar high, the greatest turnover was still in year 1/2/3 tenure pilots. Those are the facts. I guess that a CPA carrier is no longer perceived as a career job, particularly by the generally younger cadre of pilots.
I appreciated the pay lift in the last contract but as I planned on staying I watched as people all around me left. Folks these days are not even showing up for Groundschool or completing their training. Money is not convincing people to stay. During some flight deck conversations Captains have told me how brand new hires right off line indoc were already planning their escape.

In this contract there are no pay raises for anyone. Just 2% a year! that's it and the change to a more elongated pay scale. There was a fixed pot of money and the only decision was how to dish it out.
---------- ADS -----------
  
http://www.collegeofpilots.ca/

fish4life
Rank (9)
Rank (9)
Posts: 1461
Joined: Sun Jun 27, 2010 6:32 am

Re: New CPA and flowthrough to Air Canada?

#267 Post by fish4life » Mon Jan 26, 2015 12:40 pm

I may get flamed for this but let's just give it a shot. If guys were leaving so quickly after starting would it not be better to keep the pay where it was for new hires and just add a training bond for let's say 2 years. The money saved not training guys from jumping ship all the time would then be able to support a higher starting wage.
---------- ADS -----------
  

ourkid2000
Rank 5
Rank 5
Posts: 389
Joined: Sun Jul 24, 2005 11:11 pm

Re: New CPA and flowthrough to Air Canada?

#268 Post by ourkid2000 » Mon Jan 26, 2015 2:20 pm

High turnover = shitty company
---------- ADS -----------
  

teacher
Rank 10
Rank 10
Posts: 2380
Joined: Thu Feb 19, 2004 3:25 pm

Re: New CPA and flowthrough to Air Canada?

#269 Post by teacher » Mon Jan 26, 2015 3:38 pm

fish4life wrote:I may get flamed for this but let's just give it a shot. If guys were leaving so quickly after starting would it not be better to keep the pay where it was for new hires and just add a training bond for let's say 2 years. The money saved not training guys from jumping ship all the time would then be able to support a higher starting wage.
Agreed but that's not how the mother ship (Air Canada) sees it. Hence why they are doing their best to ship as many Jazz pilots to mainline in the next few years.
ourkid2000 wrote:High turnover = shitty company
Not really, Jazz has been hiring less and less experienced pilots and more folks in their early 20s with decades left in their career and they have WJ and Air Canada in their sights. It's a sign of the times. They're still young enough to chase metal unlike when I started when course after course were people in their late 20s and early mid 30s. All of us from the generation of pilots that had to deal with mergers, 9/11 and SARS at the beginning of our careers.
---------- ADS -----------
  
http://www.collegeofpilots.ca/

ourkid2000
Rank 5
Rank 5
Posts: 389
Joined: Sun Jul 24, 2005 11:11 pm

Re: New CPA and flowthrough to Air Canada?

#270 Post by ourkid2000 » Mon Jan 26, 2015 5:56 pm

Not really, Jazz has been hiring less and less experienced pilots and more folks in their early 20s with decades left in their career and they have WJ and Air Canada in their sights.
So these are the people accepting 36K per year? If you get quality people on a consistent basis for that money, well......like I said earlier you have no one to blame but yourselves for your mess. No other professional occupation in Canada offers such garbage. Not even close actually. I always though we AME's were getting the crappy end of the stick but I was dead wrong. I made more than this as a rampie. The people who decide these numbers must be on the verge of cracking up when they present them to you. I imagine John Cleese as the Frenchman in The Holy Grail saying to his buddies "I told him, he's already got one" and they all struggle to contain their laughter.

Well.....good luck fellas, I wish you all nothing but the best I assure you.
---------- ADS -----------
  

Mig29
Rank (9)
Rank (9)
Posts: 1213
Joined: Thu Aug 12, 2004 7:47 pm

Re: New CPA and flowthrough to Air Canada?

#271 Post by Mig29 » Tue Jan 27, 2015 6:29 am

Either way you look at it guys, we are dropping the industry standard to a new low. I already said that Jazz offer industry leading contract, and aside from the new DC plan offer and crappy C4's, everything else is unmatched by other regionals.

I can tell you that unless you are a college grad 34K a year is s#*t pay in 2015! How many guys overall have deflected to SKY or Encore?? Guys are not stupid to leave a job where they make on average $50/hr and more with great benefits to some outfit that pays 30% less with a lousy package.
---------- ADS -----------
  

User avatar
Old fella
Rank (9)
Rank (9)
Posts: 1700
Joined: Mon Jan 29, 2007 7:04 am

Re: New CPA and flowthrough to Air Canada?

#272 Post by Old fella » Tue Jan 27, 2015 7:45 am

In other words, it's supply and demand. With the exception of a few blips (here in North America) the supply (pilots) has always exceeded demand (hiring) by a wide margin resulting in the poor wage structure. Adding to the concoction in that pilots are willing to ACCEPT such working conditions/remuneration it is easy to see where it is all headed. It will continue into the future needless to say.
---------- ADS -----------
  

sstaurus
Rank 7
Rank 7
Posts: 556
Joined: Wed Sep 12, 2007 4:32 pm

Re: New CPA and flowthrough to Air Canada?

#273 Post by sstaurus » Tue Jan 27, 2015 7:58 am

Old fella wrote:In other words, it's supply and demand. With the exception of a few blips (here in North America) the supply (pilots) has always exceeded demand (hiring) by a wide margin resulting in the poor wage structure. Adding to the concoction in that pilots are willing to ACCEPT such working conditions/remuneration it is easy to see where it is all headed. It will continue into the future needless to say.
Exactly. As long as little boys and girls dream of flying when they grow up with stars in their eyes and glamorize the profession, it'll continue as you said.
---------- ADS -----------
  

teacher
Rank 10
Rank 10
Posts: 2380
Joined: Thu Feb 19, 2004 3:25 pm

Re: New CPA and flowthrough to Air Canada?

#274 Post by teacher » Tue Jan 27, 2015 8:52 am

ourkid2000 wrote:
Not really, Jazz has been hiring less and less experienced pilots and more folks in their early 20s with decades left in their career and they have WJ and Air Canada in their sights.
So these are the people accepting 36K per year? If you get quality people on a consistent basis for that money, well......like I said earlier you have no one to blame but yourselves for your mess. No other professional occupation in Canada offers such garbage. Not even close actually. I always though we AME's were getting the crappy end of the stick but I was dead wrong. I made more than this as a rampie. The people who decide these numbers must be on the verge of cracking up when they present them to you. I imagine John Cleese as the Frenchman in The Holy Grail saying to his buddies "I told him, he's already got one" and they all struggle to contain their laughter.

Well.....good luck fellas, I wish you all nothing but the best I assure you.
I can't argue with you. I love my job but HATE this industry and have a few times considered leaving it. The problem is of course, if the company is unwilling to pay do you quit to make a point? What is the point? Someone will than replace you and you'll be unemployed. It's a vicious cycle I've watched and been a part of many times. I HAVE quit to make a point and stood up to a shitty operator and both times I ended up on EI begging for work. Can't afford to do that anymore. My suggestion is apply somewhere else if you don't like the pay. When the pool dries up the taps will open.
---------- ADS -----------
  
http://www.collegeofpilots.ca/

402_pilot
Rank 1
Rank 1
Posts: 28
Joined: Sun Sep 13, 2009 8:42 am

Re: New CPA and flowthrough to Air Canada?

#275 Post by 402_pilot » Tue Jan 27, 2015 11:48 am

teacher wrote:When the pool dries up the taps will open
+1 With the number of ATPL's issued on the down fall, we could very well see this effect in the future.
---------- ADS -----------
  

Post Reply

Return to “Jazz Aviation LP - Air Canada Express”