2 CPAs for the price of ....poverty

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fly_in_the_sky
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2 CPAs for the price of ....poverty

#1 Post by fly_in_the_sky » Mon Feb 02, 2015 8:49 pm

Big News at Jazz today!!!!

Some say good, some say bad. I guess it depends if you are a current pilot at Jazz or not. While I am glad that I have secured employment until 2025 as a pilot at Jazz, I am saddened by the hit my friends and colleagues will endure. This new agreement with air canada only cost the soul of the pilots that signed yes to the TA. Mine included. I admit that the information was presented in the memorandum however the real life changes were not highlighted. Classic Airline shall be flown by Jazz pilots. We have secured jazz pilot jobs, next...but wait What about maintenance, dispatch, crew sked, flight attendants? We have thrown them out of the dash 8 cabin door at cruise hoping they miss the prop.

I am ashamed I did not see this coming before it happened. I guess that is why I am a pilot and not in high level management. I am saddened by the impending "cost restructuring" at jazz. Not for my secured job but rather for my friends.

New hire pilots will be back to eating kraft dinner and ramen noodles when they start at jazz with promise of going to mainline to eat more kraft dinner. We are a cannibalistic group. We sold out our colleagues and our profession. Everyone says to remain cost competitive, lower costs, re-structure this and that...How about demanding the same from our leaders? Just because we are told something from management, doesn't mean we have to believe it. We have seen the out sourcing of our groomers and ground agents at out stations that have been in the jazz family for decades. This new airline new workforce will outsource everything over time. It is no longer a race to the bottom, but a stall and spin into the ocean surrounded by sharks. I have built trust in our maintenance and flight attendants at jazz. Can I count on this new airline to find competent and experienced people. I doubt if starting wage for a pilot is 36$/hour. Imagine the gems we will get for minimum wages. Its only a matter of time before CR and JR scheme a new plan to lower costs and "out source" our jobs. How about those foreign pilots from Canjet?


The important thing is the board of directors and our fearless leaders shall now be eligible for DOUBLE BONUSES from JAZZ and this new airline...at least they will sleep well in their ivory towers watching our colleagues go on lay-off or have their salaries sliced and diced.

I hope I will be able to sleep at night knowing my decision enabled greed to win and unemployment lines to lengthen.
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Re: 2 CPAs for the price of ....poverty

#2 Post by Mach7 » Tue Feb 03, 2015 5:23 am

Did you ever consider what the other side of the coin looked like?

Your rant leads one to believe "Jazz" has control over it's own destiny. We are a contract carrier for Air Canada...nothing more nothing less. The control us 100 percent.

It was made painfully clear to the Pilot group that if we did not implement the TA, PML the renewed CPA would not come to fruition and we would remain with the CPA in its current form until 2020.

The worst case scenario plays out something like this....no new financing for the fleet renewal (Q400s), Dash 8 100s and RJ 200s parked anyway.

Where does this leave Jazz????

Do you think our current company roster can support a fleet of less than 60 airframes?

There has been no talk of layoffs or wage rollbacks for Dispatchers, Flight Attendants, Maintenance etc. This is all hearsay generated by conspiracy therories.

Although there is another OC under the Chorus umbrella, this does not mean they will maintain the 100/300s with outside interests. If you have been here as long as I have, you would know that the company survives on flexibility. For example, there is no way they would have a different roster of FAs flying under the 'classic' airline, as they need to be able to switch crews at short notice to fly every product we have on the ramp.

I am not sure how someone like yourself who probably watched or attended a road show, read the MOS and asked questions to the MEC can now stand here and question the companies motives. It was all spelled out for us with no hidden information what the property would look like going forward and what the ramifications were if we failed ratification of this TA/PML.

For the last 5 years all I have heard is people complaining about the end of Jazz come 2020. Now that there is a future, all I hear is the complaining about what that future might be.

If you pray for rain you have to deal with the mud

IMO Jazz is now in a situation to bid on work provided by Air Canada, which was not the case in the past. This means that I can see the 86 aircraft minimum by 2025 as nothing more than a minimum.

Don't be short sighted...the addition of Q400s to the fleet is a nice touch, but you and I both know that that Aircraft is mission handicapped, in other words it can not do long sectors like YUL YWG or YOW YYT etc and is capped at FL250. This means that the additional expansion will be in the form of CRJ 900s.
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Re: 2 CPAs for the price of ....poverty

#3 Post by CanadianEh » Tue Feb 03, 2015 5:24 am

So Chorus will now have "JAZZ" which does the Q400 and RJ flying and a "NEW" airline that does the DH1 and DH3 flying. They compare it to being like an Air Canada Rouge arrangement. Maybe they'll call it Jazz Rouge.

This all seems like a management shell game to me where labour loses. Maybe this is their way of introducing C-Scale wages. New, smaller pay scale since the new airline is only operating the smallest aircraft of the fleet. $30 starting pay at Jazz Rouge and $36 at Jazz since you fly bigger planes.

Then maybe you'll be able to flow through from Jazz Rouge to Jazz one day :rolleyes:
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Re: 2 CPAs for the price of ....poverty

#4 Post by flyloose » Tue Feb 03, 2015 6:36 am

fly_in_the_sky wrote:Big News at Jazz today!!!!

Some say good, some say bad. I guess it depends if you are a current pilot at Jazz or not. While I am glad that I have secured employment until 2025 as a pilot at Jazz, I am saddened by the hit my friends and colleagues will endure. This new agreement with air canada only cost the soul of the pilots that signed yes to the TA. Mine included. I admit that the information was presented in the memorandum however the real life changes were not highlighted. Classic Airline shall be flown by Jazz pilots. We have secured jazz pilot jobs, next...but wait What about maintenance, dispatch, crew sked, flight attendants? We have thrown them out of the dash 8 cabin door at cruise hoping they miss the prop.

I am ashamed I did not see this coming before it happened. I guess that is why I am a pilot and not in high level management. I am saddened by the impending "cost restructuring" at jazz. Not for my secured job but rather for my friends.

New hire pilots will be back to eating kraft dinner and ramen noodles when they start at jazz with promise of going to mainline to eat more kraft dinner. We are a cannibalistic group. We sold out our colleagues and our profession. Everyone says to remain cost competitive, lower costs, re-structure this and that...How about demanding the same from our leaders? Just because we are told something from management, doesn't mean we have to believe it. We have seen the out sourcing of our groomers and ground agents at out stations that have been in the jazz family for decades. This new airline new workforce will outsource everything over time. It is no longer a race to the bottom, but a stall and spin into the ocean surrounded by sharks. I have built trust in our maintenance and flight attendants at jazz. Can I count on this new airline to find competent and experienced people. I doubt if starting wage for a pilot is 36$/hour. Imagine the gems we will get for minimum wages. Its only a matter of time before CR and JR scheme a new plan to lower costs and "out source" our jobs. How about those foreign pilots from Canjet?


The important thing is the board of directors and our fearless leaders shall now be eligible for DOUBLE BONUSES from JAZZ and this new airline...at least they will sleep well in their ivory towers watching our colleagues go on lay-off or have their salaries sliced and diced.

I hope I will be able to sleep at night knowing my decision enabled greed to win and unemployment lines to lengthen.
While I respect your concern and compassion, it's important to remember that the heart of this matter revolves around your scope. It's not the pilot's responsibility to maintain scope protection for all the other labor groups. I know at AC the FA's were riding our coat tails for decades. I can't tell you how many times one would hear "oh, we should ME TOO that next contract". Those days are long gone. Many other groups chose not to use negotiating capital on scope.
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Re: 2 CPAs for the price of ....poverty

#5 Post by rudder » Tue Feb 03, 2015 7:15 am

All of the Tier 2 carriers are going to be struggling to recruit replacement pilots in the not too distant future. And now the CPA carriers are dangling 'flow' carrots to try to improve their offerings.

New-hire pay levels will improve once one of the Tier 2 carriers realizes that it will be cancelling flights due to lack of pilots. And the Tier 2 carrier get does not raise wages in unison will become the next one that must curtail growth plans or call its commercial partner and explain why it cannot fulfill its flying obligations.

This is hopefully just a speed bump. Job seekers should migrate to the carrier with the highest starting pay and fastest progression and ignore the one with the lowest and slowest. The laws of supply and demand will re-jig the pay equilibrium that should apply.

Also, if flow is a factor in your decisionmaking then go with a CPA carrier that gives you a mainline seniority number rather than a seniority number for a mainline interview.
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Re: 2 CPAs for the price of ....poverty

#6 Post by TrailerParkBoy » Tue Feb 03, 2015 9:24 am

Mach7 wrote:
Don't be short sighted...the addition of Q400s to the fleet is a nice touch, but you and I both know that that Aircraft is mission handicapped, in other words it can not do long sectors like YUL YWG or YOW YYT etc and is capped at FL250. This means that the additional expansion will be in the form of CRJ 900s.
You tell people that they only speak of conspiracy theories...you're above statement is as much as one; unless you know something that the rest of the pilots don't know. If thats the case then the pilot group was not well informed of the state of the union!
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Re: 2 CPAs for the price of ....poverty

#7 Post by TrailerParkBoy » Tue Feb 03, 2015 9:32 am

I also have to admit I am embarrassed to be voting for this TA; however, when the company tells you that we need to rid of the senior pilots because they are over paid, it doesn't paint a pretty picture for me at the top of the payscale in 10 years come renewal.

There is no longer a long term career at jazz...get in, get on the PML, get out!

Speaking of the PML, once the Jazz list is exhausted, anyone at all Express brands will be chosen in order of seniority, this is what I understand. If this is correct, Jazz is not the only place to be anymore. Sky Reg amd Georgian are both the same if not more considering tmyou would go left seat faster!
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Re: 2 CPAs for the price of ....poverty

#8 Post by Old fella » Tue Feb 03, 2015 9:38 am

From another prospective(non Jazz pilot but a member of the travelling public). Far as the public goes, JAZZ is just another airline flying much the same aircraft but different colors. I hear very little complaining about you company from the many I know, your airline isn't a talkative one, but you quietly and very effectively get the job done. That is, you get us to our destinations as best as you can possibly do.

By your leave.
:drinkers:
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Re: 2 CPAs for the price of ....poverty

#9 Post by rxl » Tue Feb 03, 2015 9:38 am

The message I got from the negotiating team was there wouldn't be much of a future for any employee group at Jazz beyond 2020 without the new CPA and pilot CBA.
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Re: 2 CPAs for the price of ....poverty

#10 Post by TrailerParkBoy » Tue Feb 03, 2015 10:59 am

rxl wrote:The message I got from the negotiating team was there wouldn't be much of a future for any employee group at Jazz beyond 2020 without the new CPA and pilot CBA.
If AC cannot afford to pay what it costs to fly an airplane, then they shouldn't be flying planes!

A simple comparison to show the disparity between Mainline and Regionals; AC FO in year 5 can make as much as a year 20 Captain at Jazz under the new salary. Under the New Hire at Jazz Captain makes $72 year 1 and FO year 4 AC makes $74.

AC cannot afford to lose regional passengers and therefore cannot afford to lose a companies service like Jazz! I believe ALPA gave in too soon and Jazz failed to provide a home for their current pilots!

This is why the TA passed with high numbers!
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Re: 2 CPAs for the price of ....poverty

#11 Post by CanadianEh » Tue Feb 03, 2015 11:26 am

TrailerParkBoy wrote:
rxl wrote:The message I got from the negotiating team was there wouldn't be much of a future for any employee group at Jazz beyond 2020 without the new CPA and pilot CBA.
If AC cannot afford to pay what it costs to fly an airplane, then they shouldn't be flying planes!

A simple comparison to show the disparity between Mainline and Regionals; AC FO in year 5 can make as much as a year 20 Captain at Jazz under the new salary. Under the New Hire at Jazz Captain makes $72 year 1 and FO year 4 AC makes $74.

AC cannot afford to lose regional passengers and therefore cannot afford to lose a companies service like Jazz! I believe ALPA gave in too soon and Jazz failed to provide a home for their current pilots!

This is why the TA passed with high numbers!
+1.

Aviation is one of the only industries I know where experience and loyalty are not rewarded. The fact that there are lots of guys at the top end of pay scale obviously bugged the crap out of Calin and this "innovative" partnership kills 2 birds with one stone.
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Re: 2 CPAs for the price of ....poverty

#12 Post by fly_in_the_sky » Tue Feb 03, 2015 11:42 am

TrailerParkBoy wrote:
rxl wrote:The message I got from the negotiating team was there wouldn't be much of a future for any employee group at Jazz beyond 2020 without the new CPA and pilot CBA.
If AC cannot afford to pay what it costs to fly an airplane, then they shouldn't be flying planes!

A simple comparison to show the disparity between Mainline and Regionals; AC FO in year 5 can make as much as a year 20 Captain at Jazz under the new salary. Under the New Hire at Jazz Captain makes $72 year 1 and FO year 4 AC makes $74.

AC cannot afford to lose regional passengers and therefore cannot afford to lose a companies service like Jazz! I believe ALPA gave in too soon and Jazz failed to provide a home for their current pilots!

This is why the TA passed with high numbers!
I agree. This TA and new flow through is a complete MASTERPIECE. Air canada gets what they want: Experienced pilots for peanuts. Jazz gets rid of higher scale people and creates a longer progression payscale and only had to add 5 years of CPA to the deal. In that deal, Jazz creates its on worst enemy of CLASSIC airline and and come 2025 who is to stop Jazz from farming out our 705/Q4 fleet to CLASSIC. Sure it doesnt change the fact that it's Jazz pilots flying them but I can see it effecting new hire pilots to fly 75 pax for the price of 36$/hour.....or maybe a company will treat it's employees with respect and fairness in this ultra-capitalist world. That could happen right?



MACH7. No they didn't announce layoffs....yet...you are correct. They simply announced a transition period and that they understand our concerns for the future. Just because you think you are safe doesn't mean that you are. It's a matter of time before the creative business strategy of CR and JR lower pilots wages. If you think they will not have a seperate roster for the flight attendants for this new airline you are greatly mistaken my friend. Are Air Canada flight attendants are operating the rouge flights? Rouge was for leisure are doing much more than LEISURE air travel as their management promised them. Let's hire more FA that are young and dont know aviation so we can trick them into the job that is sub standard. I would estimate that half The flight attendant group at jazz is a mature and top scale/max vacation. Sure they make 50$/h, but they have been here for at least 15 years to make that.
People will always complain. The fact that we have sold out people for 5 years of work right away is a scary thought. I too think alpa gave up too much for our industry. Alpa was played out by AC and Jazz. How many pilots did we prevent and preemptively cut by allowing an increase of blocking hours....these cuts are at a 36$/hour rate. Think about it if you feel this was a fair deal.



We shall see what the future holds for our colleagues.
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Re: 2 CPAs for the price of ....poverty

#13 Post by fly_in_the_sky » Tue Feb 03, 2015 11:56 am

flyloose wrote:
fly_in_the_sky wrote:Big News at Jazz today!!!!

Some say good, some say bad. I guess it depends if you are a current pilot at Jazz or not. While I am glad that I have secured employment until 2025 as a pilot at Jazz, I am saddened by the hit my friends and colleagues will endure. This new agreement with air canada only cost the soul of the pilots that signed yes to the TA. Mine included. I admit that the information was presented in the memorandum however the real life changes were not highlighted. Classic Airline shall be flown by Jazz pilots. We have secured jazz pilot jobs, next...but wait What about maintenance, dispatch, crew sked, flight attendants? We have thrown them out of the dash 8 cabin door at cruise hoping they miss the prop.

I am ashamed I did not see this coming before it happened. I guess that is why I am a pilot and not in high level management. I am saddened by the impending "cost restructuring" at jazz. Not for my secured job but rather for my friends.

New hire pilots will be back to eating kraft dinner and ramen noodles when they start at jazz with promise of going to mainline to eat more kraft dinner. We are a cannibalistic group. We sold out our colleagues and our profession. Everyone says to remain cost competitive, lower costs, re-structure this and that...How about demanding the same from our leaders? Just because we are told something from management, doesn't mean we have to believe it. We have seen the out sourcing of our groomers and ground agents at out stations that have been in the jazz family for decades. This new airline new workforce will outsource everything over time. It is no longer a race to the bottom, but a stall and spin into the ocean surrounded by sharks. I have built trust in our maintenance and flight attendants at jazz. Can I count on this new airline to find competent and experienced people. I doubt if starting wage for a pilot is 36$/hour. Imagine the gems we will get for minimum wages. Its only a matter of time before CR and JR scheme a new plan to lower costs and "out source" our jobs. How about those foreign pilots from Canjet?


The important thing is the board of directors and our fearless leaders shall now be eligible for DOUBLE BONUSES from JAZZ and this new airline...at least they will sleep well in their ivory towers watching our colleagues go on lay-off or have their salaries sliced and diced.

I hope I will be able to sleep at night knowing my decision enabled greed to win and unemployment lines to lengthen.
While I respect your concern and compassion, it's important to remember that the heart of this matter revolves around your scope. It's not the pilot's responsibility to maintain scope protection for all the other labor groups. I know at AC the FA's were riding our coat tails for decades. I can't tell you how many times one would hear "oh, we should ME TOO that next contract". Those days are long gone. Many other groups chose not to use negotiating capital on scope.

I agree the "me too" clause has been thrown around for decades. Is there something wrong with that though. You are correct that it's not the pilots' responsibility to protect every labour group from the company. I do think though that if you have the power to protect the weak, you should. We all know that ALPA has virtually limitless resources (with our dues that we all pay). Why not help those less fortunate. I fly with FAs from every base and a big majority do not feel as though they have a union.
We can go through life only looking out for our best interests but then we are no different from the high level management raking in bonuses and exploiting their staff on soon to be "C" scales.
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Re: 2 CPAs for the price of ....poverty

#14 Post by altiplano » Tue Feb 03, 2015 12:10 pm

Blame Air Canada...

You guys sound like the CBC...

Nobody likes B scales or more airline within airlines but fact is Jazz pilots are among the highest paid regional pilots in the world and have a largely mature work force. And look at the competitive landscape... Mcwages at regionals in the US, Westjet not far behind with Encore, what are you supposed to do to compete in that theatre?

Additionally, other labour groups deserve nothing but respect, they have their own contracts they can negotiate protections into of that's what they expect. IMO you can't worry about not using your bargaining capital to protect other labour groups, particularly unskilled labour. Afterall... are they worried about you?
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Re: 2 CPAs for the price of ....poverty

#15 Post by fly_in_the_sky » Tue Feb 03, 2015 1:19 pm

altiplano wrote:Blame Air Canada...

You guys sound like the CBC...

Nobody likes B scales or more airline within airlines but fact is Jazz pilots are among the highest paid regional pilots in the world and have a largely mature work force. And look at the competitive landscape... Mcwages at regionals in the US, Westjet not far behind with Encore, what are you supposed to do to compete in that theatre?

Additionally, other labour groups deserve nothing but respect, they have their own contracts they can negotiate protections into of that's what they expect. IMO you can't worry about not using your bargaining capital to protect other labour groups, particularly unskilled labour. Afterall... are they worried about you?
You are right, nobody likes airlines within airlines. We have seen the United states regionals deteriorate over time and we have faught hard to make jazz a great place to work. As a result of fair compensation we have stayed. Our mature workforce has hours upon hours upon hours of experience. So our wages are merited. We put in the time. Your comparison to US regionals is not fair. We are in canada and we fought to maintain a great career type regional contract. We are letting our conditions and management team win by selling out. If we would have lost everything in 2020, where would AC get replacements for their pilot shortage? Who would feed the 787 at the regional level. This is not only jazz but all regionals needs. Sky, ggn, jazz, encore, porter.

To think you are "above" "unskilled"labour is insulting. If you do not agree that longevity and loyalty towards a company doesn't allow you to have a bigger salary over years, you should re evaluate your own situation and take a new hire pay scale. A gate agent who makes 50k after 1-2-3 decades is merited. They gave their professional career to a company, should they not be able to make a living from their job? But what happened at jazz. Layoff and pink slips to outsource their labour to minimum wage no future jobs. Be happy the you had the opportunity to become a pilot a make a life. Other people became flight attendants and agents and ame. They have given years and decades of their careers to be chewed up and spit out.
Show some respect for your colleagues.
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Re: 2 CPAs for the price of ....poverty

#16 Post by dukepoint » Tue Feb 03, 2015 2:37 pm

fly_in_the_sky wrote:
altiplano wrote:Blame Air Canada...

You guys sound like the CBC...

Nobody likes B scales or more airline within airlines but fact is Jazz pilots are among the highest paid regional pilots in the world and have a largely mature work force. And look at the competitive landscape... Mcwages at regionals in the US, Westjet not far behind with Encore, what are you supposed to do to compete in that theatre?

Additionally, other labour groups deserve nothing but respect, they have their own contracts they can negotiate protections into of that's what they expect. IMO you can't worry about not using your bargaining capital to protect other labour groups, particularly unskilled labour. Afterall... are they worried about you?
You are right, nobody likes airlines within airlines. We have seen the United states regionals deteriorate over time and we have faught hard to make jazz a great place to work. As a result of fair compensation we have stayed. Our mature workforce has hours upon hours upon hours of experience. So our wages are merited. We put in the time. Your comparison to US regionals is not fair. We are in canada and we fought to maintain a great career type regional contract. We are letting our conditions and management team win by selling out. If we would have lost everything in 2020, where would AC get replacements for their pilot shortage? Who would feed the 787 at the regional level. This is not only jazz but all regionals needs. Sky, ggn, jazz, encore, porter.

To think you are "above" "unskilled"labour is insulting. If you do not agree that longevity and loyalty towards a company doesn't allow you to have a bigger salary over years, you should re evaluate your own situation and take a new hire pay scale. A gate agent who makes 50k after 1-2-3 decades is merited. They gave their professional career to a company, should they not be able to make a living from their job? But what happened at jazz. Layoff and pink slips to outsource their labour to minimum wage no future jobs. Be happy the you had the opportunity to become a pilot a make a life. Other people became flight attendants and agents and ame. They have given years and decades of their careers to be chewed up and spit out.
Show some respect for your colleagues.
I don't get where this sense of self importance comes from. Sorry, but Pilots are absolutely above unskilled labour. There is no thinking required. They actually have a licenced skill that takes years to develop. That licence can be taken away of a certian standard is not met multiple times each year. Is that not the definition of skilled? What criteria are you using to define it??? Loyalty??? Ask Calin what he thinks of loyalty and how it should be rewarded. He wants every un-skilled employee earning north of 30k gone. It's sad, but it's our new reality. Don't group yourselves with AME's either.....they have a licenced skill that they fought long and hard for. Their licence can be revoked for "malpractice" just as quickly as a pilots can. As far as "being happy" we're a pilot.....What? We earned that skill with blood, tears and dedication, followed by years of garbage pay at sketchy Tier 3 carriers while others took the easy road to C2 passes and started on the ramp or behind a check-in counter at 20. It was a long hard road that a lot of us lost collegues on, and still very few of those that survived (financially and otherwise...) actually made to to a Major carrier. But you would have no clue.

If you can be replaced in three weeks by someone off the street with a High School diploma at minimum wage, then your job is classified as unskilled. AME's and pilots don't fit in this category, at all. It was your choice to make it a "career". Don't get me wrong I feel for some of you guys (the nicer ones), but we're at War with a super-savy businessman that can run circles around us all day. If this were a game of chess, we're 6 moves behind, and I'm talking about every one of us. Blame Calin for your woes, not us.

This "we're all equal attitude" is so typical of other labour groups at AC and Jazz; cling to the coat-tails of the pilots with "me-too" clauses and everything will be OK. Then blame them when you aren't supported 100% any more. The reality is the beginning of the end for all unskilled labour at AC/Jazz started 5 years ago. Only the very senior will emerge unscathed. Best of luck to all of us. It is what it is.

DP.

Ps. I'm really interested in hearing a well thought out, logical explanation as to why you believe you are not "un-skilled" and should be rewarded so.
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Re: 2 CPAs for the price of ....poverty

#17 Post by flyloose » Tue Feb 03, 2015 4:00 pm

fly_in_the_sky wrote:
altiplano wrote:Blame Air Canada...

You guys sound like the CBC...

Nobody likes B scales or more airline within airlines but fact is Jazz pilots are among the highest paid regional pilots in the world and have a largely mature work force. And look at the competitive landscape... Mcwages at regionals in the US, Westjet not far behind with Encore, what are you supposed to do to compete in that theatre?

Additionally, other labour groups deserve nothing but respect, they have their own contracts they can negotiate protections into of that's what they expect. IMO you can't worry about not using your bargaining capital to protect other labour groups, particularly unskilled labour. Afterall... are they worried about you?
You are right, nobody likes airlines within airlines. We have seen the United states regionals deteriorate over time and we have faught hard to make jazz a great place to work. As a result of fair compensation we have stayed. Our mature workforce has hours upon hours upon hours of experience. So our wages are merited. We put in the time. Your comparison to US regionals is not fair. We are in canada and we fought to maintain a great career type regional contract. We are letting our conditions and management team win by selling out. If we would have lost everything in 2020, where would AC get replacements for their pilot shortage? Who would feed the 787 at the regional level. This is not only jazz but all regionals needs. Sky, ggn, jazz, encore, porter.

To think you are "above" "unskilled"labour is insulting. If you do not agree that longevity and loyalty towards a company doesn't allow you to have a bigger salary over years, you should re evaluate your own situation and take a new hire pay scale. A gate agent who makes 50k after 1-2-3 decades is merited. They gave their professional career to a company, should they not be able to make a living from their job? But what happened at jazz. Layoff and pink slips to outsource their labour to minimum wage no future jobs. Be happy the you had the opportunity to become a pilot a make a life. Other people became flight attendants and agents and ame. They have given years and decades of their careers to be chewed up and spit out.
Show some respect for your colleagues.
I wouldn't get too deep about it. ALPA has represented you well over the years through a combination of good collective bargaining and a rich CPA, that we all know was done to facilitate a large monetary spin off. It's not sustainable and changes were necessary. In my opinion ALPA has done a good job for you guys. Obviously a CPA with 200 fins and $150/hr Captain rates would've been better, but that's not in the cards. Seems like the bulk of your work rules have stayed intact.
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Re: 2 CPAs for the price of ....poverty

#18 Post by fly_in_the_sky » Tue Feb 03, 2015 6:56 pm

We pilots are a very skilled workforce. We have become skilled and "special" for thousands upon thousands of flight hours. All I was trying to convey is that the business and reality of capitalism is very sad and disgusting. When you see profits soaring, bonuses handed out and people laid off at the low levels, it is very sad. People have vested their lives at their job and I am fortunate that my skill set has allowed me to be in demand and not instantly replaceable such as the other unionized groups. As I am sure most of us here have sacrificed years flying for poor wages in mediocre conditions and we have paid the price both financially and with our families.

I find it sad where a future in capitalism will take us and how long we can save our skins before the ultra rich maintain their power and outsource our friends and colleagues. I would only like to hope and wish that if our group is in a position to mitigate layoffs or the degredation of working conditions from people in our industry, we should at least try. I am not saying at our expense. We have earned where we are but I do think we should at least try to support them in any capacity we can. I know I will try, even if it is futile and pointless as I am only 1 person. But one small step, might be a step in the right direction.

There is ALWAYS a win win situation, the only problem is that it is often obscured by greed and the "business" view.

I only wanted to open up peoples eyes to a possible outcome. Time will tell what Jazz has in store for our colleagues. Let us support them as we can, however that might be. Keep in mind, we have pilot/fa, fa/maint. fa/fa, pilot/pilot. It really is a family at jazz and I for one shall miss it while this transition occurs at our expense.

Look to the skies and look to the future for a better industry for ALL of us.
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Re: 2 CPAs for the price of ....poverty

#19 Post by Art Garfunkel » Tue Feb 03, 2015 7:19 pm

Today my regional day consisted of 4 sectors flying a total of 288 pax for a total flight time of 6 hours and 41 minutes. It sounds a lot like a 767 YYZ-LHR kind of day.

So, how come I don't get paid the same as a 767 skipper? I'm willing to bet my passengers yielded a lot more too! This is what I don't understand. Regional pilots are the hardest working and the lowest paid. I don't get it.
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Re: 2 CPAs for the price of ....poverty

#20 Post by TrailerParkBoy » Wed Feb 04, 2015 3:05 am

I'm so tired of hearing that Jazz Pilots are the highest paid regional....Air Canada Pilots fly the same routes as Jazz with similar jets; example YUL-YHZ-YYT. Ill compare again, a Jazz Captain with 17 YOS makes $120/hr vs the lowest paid 1st year Captain making $142/hr.

So please stop saying Jazz pilots are the highest paid regional pilots!
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Re: 2 CPAs for the price of ....poverty

#21 Post by Diadem » Wed Feb 04, 2015 5:05 am

Ditto. With this CPA, new Jazz pilots will now be making $2/hour less than Encore, so they definitely will not be the highest paid, by any metric. It's like the current Jazz pilots think that if they keep repeating the mantra, that makes it true, and they won't have to feel bad about signing the TA.
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Re: 2 CPAs for the price of ....poverty

#22 Post by Stinky » Wed Feb 04, 2015 6:07 am

Diadem wrote:Ditto. With this CPA, new Jazz pilots will now be making $2/hour less than Encore, so they definitely will not be the highest paid, by any metric. It's like the current Jazz pilots think that if they keep repeating the mantra, that makes it true, and they won't have to feel bad about signing the TA.
Absolutely, it's funny how this keeps getting repeated and this myth has managed to live on. I would actually argue that Jazz pilots were, and will continue to be the lowest compensated in North America. If you just look at the average FO at Jazz vs the average FO at Encore or Sky, Jazz looks OK because of the years of service.
Now look at something that is actually meaningful, a 5 or 10 year trajectory for a new hire. Total compensation at Sky or Encore, and perhaps most regionals in the U.S. and Jazz is now closer to the bottom of the list.
With the new CPA, upgrades will come faster but with the new payscale Jazz will once again drop to the bottom of the pile. ALPA strikes again.
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Re: 2 CPAs for the price of ....poverty

#23 Post by Gilles Hudicourt » Wed Feb 04, 2015 6:29 am

Mach7 wrote:Did you ever consider what the other side of the coin looked like?

Your rant leads one to believe "Jazz" has control over it's own destiny. We are a contract carrier for Air Canada...nothing more nothing less. The control us 100 percent.
Did you ever consider what the third side of the coin looked like ?

Jazz is the second or third largest airline in Canada. Over 100 aircraft and 1200 to 1500 pilots. But like in Poker, the cards you have in your hand, regardless of how good they are, do not necessarily guarantee you will win.....
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Re: 2 CPAs for the price of ....poverty

#24 Post by Stinky » Wed Feb 04, 2015 6:30 am

.....and just to add....

The other often repeated "best working conditions in the country!" is BS as well. I think it's a real disservice to post that on here, new pilots may come here to look for information and end up with distorted expectations.

The BOTL guy at Jazz has a very different life than the top guys. You'll work every weekend with the crappiest layovers and flying at the company.
Compare that to a new hire at Sky and Encore where I believe both company use a fair bidding system. A day one guy will have a decent schedule.
Jazz promoters also fail to mention things like zero pay for deadheads and the high cost of their healthcare plans.
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Re: 2 CPAs for the price of ....poverty

#25 Post by proper » Wed Feb 04, 2015 5:48 pm

Yes your right, it sucks to have short term, long term disability and travel insurance in addition to life insurance , accidental death and dismemberment, almost a thousand dollars worth of massages etc etc. If I die tomorrow, my family will get 20 000$ within 24 hours for funeral arrangements and subsequently 400 000$ plus. Yes indeed the premiums are expensive but it gives me the comfort of mind. Not to mention if I become a vegetable. My family will be safe. Now I realize you need additional insurance in this current economic time. New hires will not have the DB pension but the DC is far superior to every carrier except Air Canada's new hire DC. It is what it is but Jazz still is a great career company. With the movement forecast you won't have to be reserve for long. Oh and wait new hire at mainline works ya 16 days on a block or if you are on reserve min 12 days off WITH MOVABLE DAYS OFF? WTF?
We all can pick where we want to go. For those of you looking at regional employment, dont listen to those on a web board... Me included. Get the facts, get the contracts and see the pay stubs and pension plans for yourself. Look at bid packages and travel perk policies. If you dont know anyone than this is the best you can do I suppose.

Sorry I needed to clarify that.
Please continue original discussion.
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