2 CPAs for the price of ....poverty

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proper
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Re: 2 CPAs for the price of ....poverty

#26 Post by proper » Wed Feb 04, 2015 5:53 pm

I do hope and feel for our colleagues that will face the pressure of the new CPA. I'm keeping my fingers crossed there will be no layoffs or forced moves to the Classic operation involving degraded pay and working conditions.
Remember Air France in Yyz? The heroes that day were not the "skilled pilots" nor the "trained mechanics" but the experienced cabin crew. They and only they saved all those people. I will support my cabin crew!
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aV1aTOr
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Re: 2 CPAs for the price of ....poverty

#27 Post by aV1aTOr » Wed Feb 04, 2015 6:20 pm

proper wrote:Yes your right, it sucks to have short term, long term disability and travel insurance in addition to life insurance , accidental death and dismemberment, almost a thousand dollars worth of massages etc etc. If I die tomorrow, my family will get 20 000$ within 24 hours for funeral arrangements and subsequently 400 000$ plus. Yes indeed the premiums are expensive but it gives me the comfort of mind. Not to mention if I become a vegetable. My family will be safe. Now I realize you need additional insurance in this current economic time. New hires will not have the DB pension but the DC is far superior to every carrier except Air Canada's new hire DC. It is what it is but Jazz still is a great career company. With the movement forecast you won't have to be reserve for long. Oh and wait new hire at mainline works ya 16 days on a block or if you are on reserve min 12 days off WITH MOVABLE DAYS OFF? WTF?
We all can pick where we want to go. For those of you looking at regional employment, dont listen to those on a web board... Me included. Get the facts, get the contracts and see the pay stubs and pension plans for yourself. Look at bid packages and travel perk policies. If you dont know anyone than this is the best you can do I suppose.

Sorry I needed to clarify that.
Please continue original discussion.
If we are clarifying facts, may as well apply to yours as well. Reserve at mainline affords you 6 G days off per month, which are not movable. They are guaranteed, hence the G designation. There are 6 days + 6 hours which are either T days (technical) or O days (optional). If O days follow G days (eg 2 Gs followed by 2 Os) the Os are as good as Gs. So in actual fact, the only 2 days which are completely at the company's discretion every month are the 2 T days +6 hours.
As for block holders working 16 days, yes that does happen, depending on fleet, base, and season. It is definitely not a sure thing, every month. I am on a narrow body fleet and have not worked a 16 day month in 6 months.
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BingBong
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Re: 2 CPAs for the price of ....poverty

#28 Post by BingBong » Wed Feb 04, 2015 11:01 pm

Don't be short sighted...the addition of Q400s to the fleet is a nice touch, but you and I both know that that Aircraft is mission handicapped, in other words it can not do long sectors like YUL YWG or YOW YYT etc and is capped at FL250. This means that the additional expansion will be in the form of CRJ 900s.[/quote]

Actually I did YUL-YWG-YUL as a rescue.

Flight was blocked at 3 hr on the jet.

Westbound took 3:17, Eastbound took 2:45. The Q isn't so handicapped as you might think. It just sucks There is no movies to watch.
And being at 25 oh has maybe been an hindrance four times in the three years I've flown this bird.
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proper
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Re: 2 CPAs for the price of ....poverty

#29 Post by proper » Thu Feb 05, 2015 7:50 am

Great I stand corrected, I was under the impression that you had 4 fixed days off not six so thats good. Also good to hear about the 16 days thing. My point was simply for those looking for info to not completely trust us. We have a very unique experience as we all sit at a specific seniority number, bid slightly differently and have had a different voyage in this industry. Things change and you will only know for sure once you are there. In the meantime look for letterheads and documents. That will be as close as you can get.
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aV1aTOr
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Re: 2 CPAs for the price of ....poverty

#30 Post by aV1aTOr » Thu Feb 05, 2015 10:18 am

You are not far off. Reserve increased from 4 to 6 G days with the latest contract. But the nature of G and O days has been that way since 2012.
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teacher
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Re: 2 CPAs for the price of ....poverty

#31 Post by teacher » Thu Feb 05, 2015 10:25 am

I once again say. The only thing to blame for this new contract is the cost pressures placed on Jazz and ALPA by Air Canada.

Separate OC or lose all the classics to another airline.
Accept the deal and go to Air Canada or face the axe in 2020.

That's it that's all. It's a lot simpler than all the conspiracy theories being presented on this board. Nobody was going to go head to head with Air Canada this time unlike our last negots. When it comes to negotiations, like war, you have to learn to realize when you are surrounded and in a no win situation. Considering our alternatives I think we did pretty good. I and most others at Jazz were not ready to burn down the house to prove a point.
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TrailerParkBoy
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Re: 2 CPAs for the price of ....poverty

#32 Post by TrailerParkBoy » Thu Feb 05, 2015 11:05 am

teacher wrote:I once again say. The only thing to blame for this new contract is the cost pressures placed on Jazz and ALPA by Air Canada.

Separate OC or lose all the classics to another airline.
Accept the deal and go to Air Canada or face the axe in 2020.

That's it that's all. It's a lot simpler than all the conspiracy theories being presented on this board. Nobody was going to go head to head with Air Canada this time unlike our last negots. When it comes to negotiations, like war, you have to learn to realize when you are surrounded and in a no win situation. Considering our alternatives I think we did pretty good. I and most others at Jazz were not ready to burn down the house to prove a point.
Thank you for not burning down the house today...I hope you'll be around in 2025 to watch the fire re-light! Me thinks you'll be long gone in 10 years...so who cares right?

Don't worry...most of the pilot group won't be around in 2025 to lay their cards down again!
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Re: 2 CPAs for the price of ....poverty

#33 Post by teacher » Thu Feb 05, 2015 2:01 pm

I wish I was going to be around in 2025. I planned Jazz to be my career but the road show made it very clear. Sign up for the PML or else. Pass this TA or else. I felt, like many others, that I had no choice. Was it an accurate feeling or was I played? What would we and the piloting profession have gained had another tier 2 carrier been given the classic flying?

No doubt we ALL would have preferred a completely different scenario.

Strike vote=Sky Regional
Bench marking arbitration in Jazz's favour=Georgian
Refusal to pass the TA?=Not willing to take the risk

If I had faith in my fellow pilots to not stab me in the back or jump at the soonest opportunity to replace me than maybe I may have followed a more confrontational path with the company but I've done that and been there in the past and I was replaced.

Counting on a possible pilot shortage and ACs unwillingness to completely replace Jazz in 2020 is one too many eggs in my basket.
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Kosiw
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Re: 2 CPAs for the price of ....poverty

#34 Post by Kosiw » Fri Feb 06, 2015 3:10 pm

Any word on who the mystery buyer of those 24 crj 900s is? Is it Jazz or possibly Sky Regional, or another as yet unnamed AC connector?
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CanadianEh
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Re: 2 CPAs for the price of ....poverty

#35 Post by CanadianEh » Fri Feb 06, 2015 3:23 pm

Kosiw wrote:Any word on who the mystery buyer of those 24 crj 900s is? Is it Jazz or possibly Sky Regional, or another as yet unnamed AC connector?
Rumour has it they are going to a new AC connector called Sky Georgian Rouge and they will be operated by highly trained monkeys as part of a "pilot" project.
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Texan1256
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Re: 2 CPAs for the price of ....poverty

#36 Post by Texan1256 » Fri Feb 06, 2015 9:41 pm

If it wasn't so sad, it'd be funny. :roll: :lol:
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altiplano
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Re: 2 CPAs for the price of ....poverty

#37 Post by altiplano » Sat Feb 07, 2015 8:30 am

To think you are "above" "unskilled"labour is insulting. If you do not agree that longevity and loyalty towards a company doesn't allow you to have a bigger salary over years, you should re evaluate your own situation and take a new hire pay scale. A gate agent who makes 50k after 1-2-3 decades is merited. They gave their professional career to a company, should they not be able to make a living from their job? But what happened at jazz. Layoff and pink slips to outsource their labour to minimum wage no future jobs. Be happy the you had the opportunity to become a pilot a make a life. Other people became flight attendants and agents and ame. They have given years and decades of their careers to be chewed up and spit out.
I didn't say I was above unskilled labour.
You are drawing your own inferences which are inaccurate.

I said they deserve our respect.

Do I think pilots should earn more and enjoy better benefits than ramp or gate or FAs? Absolutely! Don't you? Should doctors have it better than unit clerks and orderlies? That's just the way the world works... and you get what you negotiate.

Somehow protecting other labour groups or spending bargaining capital on protecting their jobs when we open our own contracts isn't our problem. That's up to their negots and make no mistake, their unions have done very well for them over the years and never had a second thought about pilots along the way beyond getting the same benefits... So again, they deserve our respect, but we owe them nothing. That doesn't mean I want to see anyone kicked to the curb either, but you get what you negotiate.
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Re: 2 CPAs for the price of ....poverty

#38 Post by altiplano » Sat Feb 07, 2015 8:38 am

I once again say. The only thing to blame for this new contract is the cost pressures placed on Jazz and ALPA by Air Canada.
There it is again, "Blame Air Canada".

For what? Trying to compete? Against lower costs at Encore, Porter and every US feeder?

Maybe that's where you should put the "blame"? Or maybe you have a better solution? What should AC do to compete in regional feed that allows costs to stay out of line?
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Re: 2 CPAs for the price of ....poverty

#39 Post by rudder » Sat Feb 07, 2015 8:44 am

altiplano wrote: There it is again, "Blame Air Canada".

For what? Trying to compete? Against lower costs at Encore, Porter and every US feeder?

Maybe that's where you should put the "blame"? Or maybe you have a better solution? What should AC do to compete in regional feed that allows costs to stay out of line?
Have you seen the alternatives?

AC is fortunate to have Jazz as a commercial partner. And Jazz is fortunate to be the principal CPA partner for AC. With the revised CPA AC will achieve the cost objectives that it requires while retaining the service of the most reliable regional service provider in Canada.

Seems like a fair arrangement for both.
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Re: 2 CPAs for the price of ....poverty

#40 Post by teacher » Sat Feb 07, 2015 8:45 am

altiplano wrote:
I once again say. The only thing to blame for this new contract is the cost pressures placed on Jazz and ALPA by Air Canada.
There it is again, "Blame Air Canada".

For what? Trying to compete? Against lower costs at Encore, Porter and every US feeder?

Maybe that's where you should put the "blame"? Or maybe you have a better solution? What should AC do to compete in regional feed that allows costs to stay out of line?
Actually if you read my earlier posts I did say that the other AC regionals and encore are the #1 reason for declining regional pilots wages and working conditions. AC is doing nothing more than attempting to match their WAWCON.
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altiplano
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Re: 2 CPAs for the price of ....poverty

#41 Post by altiplano » Sat Feb 07, 2015 10:05 am

rudder wrote: With the revised CPA AC will achieve the cost objectives that it requires while retaining the service of the most reliable regional service provider in Canada.

Seems like a fair arrangement for both.
Sounds like we agree. AC has to compete.
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Re: 2 CPAs for the price of ....poverty

#42 Post by rudder » Sat Feb 07, 2015 11:23 am

altiplano wrote:
Sounds like we agree. AC has to compete.
Yes. But if you are suggesting that lowest bidder wins with no other considerations factored into the decision then we disagree.

It does not appear that AC has made a decision to go with lowest bidder in this instance. However, this was a negotiation and AC was facing 5 more years with a very expensive CPA. It's will be interesting to see what decisions AC makes in future CPA RFP awards. That will be determinative of the real role that AC feels that CHR plays in the AC Express portfolio.
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Re: 2 CPAs for the price of ....poverty

#43 Post by altiplano » Sat Feb 07, 2015 12:26 pm

rudder wrote:
Yes. But if you are suggesting that lowest bidder wins with no other considerations factored into the decision then we disagree.

It does not appear that AC has made a decision to go with lowest bidder in this instance. However, this was a negotiation and AC was facing 5 more years with a very expensive CPA. It's will be interesting to see what decisions AC makes in future CPA RFP awards. That will be determinative of the real role that AC feels that CHR plays in the AC Express portfolio.
Where did I say that it should always be the lowest bidder?

Of course there are commercial decisions and other factors that drive agreements like this. But the CPA had to change for AC to be competitive and guys who apparently either don't like the TA or felt forced into it are saying blame Air Canada for the pressure on CHR and I disagree.

Something HAD to change. Looking at the deal it seems they made out alright.
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Re: 2 CPAs for the price of ....poverty

#44 Post by teacher » Sat Feb 07, 2015 10:00 pm

altiplano wrote:
rudder wrote:
Yes. But if you are suggesting that lowest bidder wins with no other considerations factored into the decision then we disagree.

It does not appear that AC has made a decision to go with lowest bidder in this instance. However, this was a negotiation and AC was facing 5 more years with a very expensive CPA. It's will be interesting to see what decisions AC makes in future CPA RFP awards. That will be determinative of the real role that AC feels that CHR plays in the AC Express portfolio.
Where did I say that it should always be the lowest bidder?

Of course there are commercial decisions and other factors that drive agreements like this. But the CPA had to change for AC to be competitive and guys who apparently either don't like the TA or felt forced into it are saying blame Air Canada for the pressure on CHR and I disagree.

Something HAD to change. Looking at the deal it seems they made out alright.
The reason I have simplified my comments to "it ACs fault" is because of the "it's Jazz's fault" comments making it seem like Jazz is single handily responsible for the lowering of regional WAWCON. Anyone with half a brain knows that Jazz was just responding to ACs demands for lower costs I exchange for a new CPA. The choice was clear, work within the new parameters or be finished.
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rudder
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Re: 2 CPAs for the price of ....poverty

#45 Post by rudder » Sat Feb 14, 2015 2:38 pm

The more that I look at what ALPA/Jazz did the more that I see it was a 100% copy of what AC did with Rouge except that Jazz and AC added the incentive to attrit tenured pilots since what is missing from the Jazz plan vs the AC plan is growth. As a matter of fact - the plan is specifically based on fleet reduction and block hour reduction (and a modest reduction in ASM's).

2 operating certificates (AC/Rouge and Jazz/Classic). Single pilot seniority lists. Single collective agreements with LOU's for the newly formed 'division'. Starting pilot pay NOT on par with competitors (AC paying $55K to starting 767 FO at Rouge which is less than any other airline with that equipment in Canada and Jazz paying $36K to starting Q400/CRJ FO below starting pay at Porter and Encore). No more DB pensions for new-hires at either AC/Rouge or Jazz/Classic. Self-renewing consecutive collective agreements with pre-determined COLA increases.

So, for those that are overly critical of the Jazz pilots for agreeing to these conditions one has only to look at recent AC/ACPA agreements to find the template. And while much of the content of those deals emanated from the intervention by the Federal government in the ACPA bargaining process, it would certainly appear that the die was cast several years ago in a plan formed somewhere on Cote-Vertu Blvd..... the pilots at AC and Jazz were simply pawns in a more sophisticated game than they could have imagined.

Hopefully growth at AC and rapid equipment/rank progression at AC/Rouge and Jazz/Classic will balance out the low starting circumstances. Either way, this is how it will be in the AC system for many years to come.

Best of luck to those joining up. It will be an interesting ride.
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Re: 2 CPAs for the price of ....poverty

#46 Post by TrailerParkBoy » Mon Feb 16, 2015 8:02 am

Sorry but I disagree about the comparison between AC and Jazz contracts.

The similarities end with the creation of 2 companies. I'm too tired to go on!

This contract was a plate of sh*t with a 4 oz piece of Fillet Mignon on it. If you felt you would go hungry at Jazz, you'll vote yes to eating the Fillet Mignon, but will still taste the shi*t because it's touching the only edible piece of meat on the plate!
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