Situation for Jazz New Hires

[Apollo]

Thanks!

Hopefully there will be some YYC spots for us noobies! Gotta practice my number out of a hat picking skills!

[BingBong]

when I picked mine I was the third in my class. When I drew the next one it said 7 3/4. It was the oddest senioroty number

[CBcloud9]

Has anyone received calls for the the March 9th Groundschool?

[Maver!ck]

Has anyone received calls for the the March 9th Groundschool?

Yup !

[dirk82]

New hire FO pay scale from the MOU

Year 1---36.00
2---37.00
3---38.00
4---40.00
5---47.00
6---53.23
7---58.95 dash8-100/300 cap
8---63.31

The scale goes to 15 years but I couldn't get paste to work. Add 2% to the scale every year plus at least 10000$ in tax free meal expense

That cant be right. After 5 years you dont even crack 50 a year????? How are they filling gs?

Nothing like working your ass off to get an ATPL and then go make the least amount of your career after you have it. I hope they at least give you a small shot of lube before you bend over for this one.

[rudder]

New hire FO pay scale from the MOU

Year 1---36.00
2---37.00
3---38.00
4---40.00
5---47.00
6---53.23
7---58.95 dash8-100/300 cap
8---63.31

The scale goes to 15 years but I couldn't get paste to work. Add 2% to the scale every year plus at least 10000$ in tax free meal expense

That cant be right. After 5 years you dont even crack 50 a year????? How are they filling gs?

Nothing like working your ass off to get an ATPL and then go make the least amount of your career after you have it. I hope they at least give you a small shot of lube before you bend over for this one.

What Jazz is selling is that after 3-4 years you will go CAPT. For pilots hired in 2015 it will be closer to 7-8 years to left seat. Pilots hired in 2017 and after might be looking at junior left seat in year 4 but even that is not assured if the plan to shrink the fleet is accurate.

Prospective pilots can vote with their wallets and avoid this situation (ridiculously low entry level wages). Once Jazz realize that they are unable to meet the commercial schedule due to lack of new-hire pilots then market forces will prevail and the entry level pay offered will have to go up.

[Kosiw]

New hire FO pay scale from the MOU

Year 1---36.00
2---37.00
3---38.00
4---40.00
5---47.00
6---53.23
7---58.95 dash8-100/300 cap
8---63.31

The scale goes to 15 years but I couldn't get paste to work. Add 2% to the scale every year plus at least 10000$ in tax free meal expense

That cant be right. After 5 years you dont even crack 50 a year????? How are they filling gs?

Nothing like working your ass off to get an ATPL and then go make the least amount of your career after you have it. I hope they at least give you a small shot of lube before you bend over for this one.

What Jazz is selling is that after 3-4 years you will go CAPT. For pilots hired in 2015 it will be closer to 7-8 years to left seat. Pilots hired in 2017 and after might be looking at junior left seat in year 4 but even that is not assured if the plan to shrink the fleet is accurate.

Prospective pilots can vote with their wallets and avoid this situation (ridiculously low entry level wages). Once Jazz realize that they are unable to meet the commercial schedule due to lack of new-hire pilots then market forces will prevail and the entry level pay offered will have to go up.

Nice sentiment, but this will probably take years to occur.

[rudder]

Nice sentiment, but this will probably take years to occur.

With the projected hiring at Encore, Skyregional, Jazz and Porter plus the attrition rates to AC (which will be particularly significant at Jazz) there will be huge demand and competition for the limited pool of pilots qualified and able to fill tier 2 positions.

At some point, one or more of these carriers will come to the realization that they are not getting either enough applicants or enough pilots showing up for training on Day 1. Already happening in the US. And now signing bonuses are being offered as well as retention bonuses. Either way, the total wages paid at the tier 2 entry level rose as a function of supply and demand.

Perhaps Jazz will go the way of retention bonuses (i.e. extra $2500 for each 90 days spent on Jazz payroll). Perhaps it will be something else. But the fact is that Jazz is not offering anything more than a Jazz seniority number and a pay cheque vs what some of the other tier 2 operators are offering (quick upgrades and seniority numbers in the mainline system).

AC could have stepped up and offered more than just an interview as an inducement to prospective Jazz pilots but that did not happen either. And there are good jobs to be had for pilots with some experience at operators like Sunwing, Transat, Cargojet, Morningstar and others. What is almost certain is that status quo of $36/hr and virtually zero pay progression for 4 years will not prevail.

[Kosiw]

Nice sentiment, but this will probably take years to occur.

With the projected hiring at Encore, Skyregional, Jazz and Porter plus the attrition rates to AC (which will be particularly significant at Jazz) there will be huge demand and competition for the limited pool of pilots qualified and able to fill tier 2 positions.

At some point, one or more of these carriers will come to the realization that they are not getting either enough applicants or enough pilots showing up for training on Day 1. Already happening in the US. And now signing bonuses are being offered as well as retention bonuses. Either way, the total wages paid at the tier 2 entry level rose as a function of supply and demand.

Perhaps Jazz will go the way of retention bonuses (i.e. extra $2500 for each 90 days spent on Jazz payroll). Perhaps it will be something else. But the fact is that Jazz is not offering anything more than a Jazz seniority number and a pay cheque vs what some of the other tier 2 operators are offering (quick upgrades and seniority numbers in the mainline system).

AC could have stepped up and offered more than just an interview as an inducement to prospective Jazz pilots but that did not happen either. And there are good jobs to be had for pilots with some experience at operators like Sunwing, Transat, Cargojet, Morningstar and others. What is almost certain is that status quo of $36/hr and virtually zero pay progression for 4 years will not prevail.

Care to "crystal ball" as to a time line for the tier 2's to start hurting for pilots ?

[rudder]

Nice sentiment, but this will probably take years to occur.

With the projected hiring at Encore, Skyregional, Jazz and Porter plus the attrition rates to AC (which will be particularly significant at Jazz) there will be huge demand and competition for the limited pool of pilots qualified and able to fill tier 2 positions.

At some point, one or more of these carriers will come to the realization that they are not getting either enough applicants or enough pilots showing up for training on Day 1. Already happening in the US. And now signing bonuses are being offered as well as retention bonuses. Either way, the total wages paid at the tier 2 entry level rose as a function of supply and demand.

Perhaps Jazz will go the way of retention bonuses (i.e. extra $2500 for each 90 days spent on Jazz payroll). Perhaps it will be something else. But the fact is that Jazz is not offering anything more than a Jazz seniority number and a pay cheque vs what some of the other tier 2 operators are offering (quick upgrades and seniority numbers in the mainline system).

AC could have stepped up and offered more than just an interview as an inducement to prospective Jazz pilots but that did not happen either. And there are good jobs to be had for pilots with some experience at operators like Sunwing, Transat, Cargojet, Morningstar and others. What is almost certain is that status quo of $36/hr and virtually zero pay progression for 4 years will not prevail.

Care to "crystal ball" as to a time line for the tier 2's to start hurting for pilots ?

Encore has already found outside what happens if what you are offering is at the low end of the spectrum. Some action was taken (not enough) and apparently the application drawer has been replenished.

I see 2017 as a problem year for some tier 2 carriers as attrition/growth at AC kicks in to high gear. Jazz will be most affected although the Jazz fleet is planned to shrink which will partially offset any shortfall in applicants. What will really get the attention of Jazz will be recent hire pilot departures to non-AC carriers.

Only time will tell but over the next decade almost 2000 airline pilots will be turning 65 in Canada. I don't think that there are nearly enough pilots entering the commercial pilot training pipeline to fill the void that will result.

[Stinky]

Already happening in the US. And now signing bonuses are being offered as well as retention bonuses. Either way, the total wages paid at the tier 2 entry level rose as a function of supply and demand.

Have a look at this GAO report regarding the fictional airline pilot in the U.S. There's a reason why the airlines are offering bonuses but not raising wages.
I've cut and paste a line found on page 33
These new low wages at Jazz are here to say, best case scenario would be a signing bonus during period where attracting pilots is tight.

http://gao.gov/assets/670/661243.pdf

Improve wages and fringe benefits. Increasing wages will help
increase the number of personnel willing to work in a particular
position or occupation. However, employers are reluctant to do this
because they may be forced to raise the wages of current employees
as well. Further, unlike some other actions, once wages are raised, it is unlikely that they will be reduced later if hiring becomes less
difficult

[Flyboycanada80]

Say a pilot starts at Jazz today with his ATPL and about 3000 hours. He takes a pay cut and a big lifestyle change and takes a right seat on Jazz. How soon realistically until he gets an opportunity at the left seat?

[AllClutch]

Realistic projections say 5-7 years. Could be less or more.
Be warned that the most junior captain right now is about 8 years.

[Flyboycanada80]

Realistic projections say 5-7 years. Could be less or more.
Be warned that the most junior captain right now is about 8 years.

Ok so say an FO that starts today get upgraded in 5 years. Does he then start at yr1 cap payscale or yr5 cap payscale. Thats a huge difference and may be a deciding factor.

Also the new employees that start now are or are not on "the list" for AC. Are they just interviews or job offers?

Is there a seniority # you carry forward to AC if you do get offered and decide down the road to goto AC?

Are the current Jazz captains leaving Jazz or is the problem that the Captains have it good and are not interested in moving on, thus upgrades are slow.

thanks for the info.

[Krimson]

Year 1 pay, not on the list, and no carry over seniority to AC.

[Flyboycanada80]

Year 1 pay, not on the list, and no carry over seniority to AC.

that doesn't sound very good for new hires, why would anyone accept this?

[Krimson]

Year 1 pay, not on the list, and no carry over seniority to AC.

that doesn't sound very good for new hires, why would anyone accept this?

Good question. Jazz is not the same company it was 1 year ago. It is likely why they are hiring pilots with less than 1500 hours to fly their 705 machines.

[JoeyBarton]

The guys I see getting hired at Jazz right now are 703/704 Fo's with hardly any MPIC time around 1500-2000 TT. The deal is shitty now with absolutely no gurarantee when it comes to flowing to mainline. Upgrades still take forever and you'll be making below 40k for the first 3 years...Below 60 for the first 6-7 years on the new payscale. It is awful.
When you look at the current level of experience of new hires at Encore, Sky and Jazz I think it says it all. Encore and Sky hire in the 3000+ most of them with previous 705 experience. The new guys leave their own 705 operation for Encore or Sky, not for Jazz.
I would have a close look at those numbers, if you cannot attract higher time guys, then it says a lot about the current deal at Jazz.

Just my 2 cents

[mbav8r]

Year 1 pay, not on the list, and no carry over seniority to AC.

that doesn't sound very good for new hires, why would anyone accept this?

The year 1 captain pay is because that's how Westjet and Encore do it, this is not something new Jazz execs thought up. Also fairly certain Sky and GGN are doing it as well

[CBcloud9]

Average new hire time is 2000-3000 hours with ATPL's. Most with Multi-turbine Captain time but there are a couple in every class with <2000 hours and no turbine, but at least have them written and PIC time. Hiring is still on-going for foreseeable future. *Talk* has upgrade time pegged at anywhere from 4-6 years, dependent entirely on mainline hiring in the next 5 years.