Worth the move?
Moderators: sky's the limit, sepia, Sulako, lilfssister, North Shore, I WAS Birddog
-
infiniteregulus
- Rank 4
- Posts: 231
- Joined: Sat Apr 18, 2015 3:46 am
Worth the move?
How's Jazz looking nowadays? Is it worth moving from a 704 left seat making 65,000 and take the pay cut to be a Jazz new hire? How's morale at the company? What's the average duty days/legs? Days off per month? Is there a future?
-
flyer 1492
- Rank 7
- Posts: 561
- Joined: Thu Jan 27, 2005 7:55 pm
Re: Worth the move?
Greetings,
Is coming to Jazz worth the move? I would think so, with the signing of a 10 year contract and the ability to move to Air Canada when you pass their interview and medical. We just had 46 F/O's upgrade to Captains this month with more to come over the next few years as more Captains retire (early or at 65) or move over to AC. The morale is good, now that we have the new contract. Working conditions are the best in the Canadian industry, you can expect at least 12 days off a month altho most new hires average around 14. With your vacation you can use 3 GDO's either at the beginning or end. The starting pay is now lower than in previous contracts (thanks to the race to the bottom), but our per diems are the highest of all 705 carriers it's not hard to bring in $1000.00 per month just in expenses (tax free). Pay rates, per diems, dry cleaning, foot wear allowance, etc will increase by 2%/year for the life of the contract.
STD is at 60% of your pay (tax free) for 11 months and then you transfer to LTD which is at 70% (taxable) for the next 5 years. The pension is now a DC for any new hire. The rates for the DC are as follows. Year 1 pilot pays 4% company 4%, Year 2/3 5/5, Year 4 6/6, Year 5 6/7, Year 6 and beyond 6/8. I have been with the company for over 25 years and still enjoy coming to work. The choice is up to you, if and where you want to end up, but the employees at Jazz are some of the best in the business. Hope this helps.
Flyer
Is coming to Jazz worth the move? I would think so, with the signing of a 10 year contract and the ability to move to Air Canada when you pass their interview and medical. We just had 46 F/O's upgrade to Captains this month with more to come over the next few years as more Captains retire (early or at 65) or move over to AC. The morale is good, now that we have the new contract. Working conditions are the best in the Canadian industry, you can expect at least 12 days off a month altho most new hires average around 14. With your vacation you can use 3 GDO's either at the beginning or end. The starting pay is now lower than in previous contracts (thanks to the race to the bottom), but our per diems are the highest of all 705 carriers it's not hard to bring in $1000.00 per month just in expenses (tax free). Pay rates, per diems, dry cleaning, foot wear allowance, etc will increase by 2%/year for the life of the contract.
STD is at 60% of your pay (tax free) for 11 months and then you transfer to LTD which is at 70% (taxable) for the next 5 years. The pension is now a DC for any new hire. The rates for the DC are as follows. Year 1 pilot pays 4% company 4%, Year 2/3 5/5, Year 4 6/6, Year 5 6/7, Year 6 and beyond 6/8. I have been with the company for over 25 years and still enjoy coming to work. The choice is up to you, if and where you want to end up, but the employees at Jazz are some of the best in the business. Hope this helps.
Flyer
Last edited by flyer 1492 on Fri Jun 19, 2015 1:01 pm, edited 1 time in total.
-
TrailerParkBoy
- Rank 4
- Posts: 205
- Joined: Tue Apr 12, 2005 8:48 pm
Re: Worth the move?
Flyer,
I may agree that Jazz is a still an OK move, if you can afford to take a pay cut for the next 5 to 10 years! A new hire will take 3 years to make over $40K.
Please don't advertise to new hires that they can move to AC with an Interview and Medical...because that is false! There is no mobility to AC in the contract for anyone NOT on the PML already!
The problem is that Sky Regional has better progression and pay for a new hire. The latest Jazz FOs upgraded were 9-10 year FOs. I cannot say upgrades will happen faster then 5-6 years under our new 10 yr contract term!
There is, unfortunately, better out there then Jazz these days!
I may agree that Jazz is a still an OK move, if you can afford to take a pay cut for the next 5 to 10 years! A new hire will take 3 years to make over $40K.
Please don't advertise to new hires that they can move to AC with an Interview and Medical...because that is false! There is no mobility to AC in the contract for anyone NOT on the PML already!
The problem is that Sky Regional has better progression and pay for a new hire. The latest Jazz FOs upgraded were 9-10 year FOs. I cannot say upgrades will happen faster then 5-6 years under our new 10 yr contract term!
There is, unfortunately, better out there then Jazz these days!
Re: Worth the move?
A new hire won't take three years to make over $40K. There is lots of overtime to be had if one wants to up their T4. That is only going to increase as the pilot supply tightens.TrailerParkBoy wrote:Flyer,
I may agree that Jazz is a still an OK move, if you can afford to take a pay cut for the next 5 to 10 years! A new hire will take 3 years to make over $40K.
Please don't advertise to new hires that they can move to AC with an Interview and Medical...because that is false! There is no mobility to AC in the contract for anyone NOT on the PML already!
The problem is that Sky Regional has better progression and pay for a new hire. The latest Jazz FOs upgraded were 9-10 year FOs. I cannot say upgrades will happen faster then 5-6 years under our new 10 yr contract term!
There is, unfortunately, better out there then Jazz these days!
Regarding your comment on the PML, that is not correct. Essentially the flow opens to all Express carriers when the PML is exhausted. 60% or better will still come from Jazz.
If Sky Regional is such a great place to work, why do they have over 50% attrition year over year?
-
TrailerParkBoy
- Rank 4
- Posts: 205
- Joined: Tue Apr 12, 2005 8:48 pm
Re: Worth the move?
Lots of OT to be had...if you can find time in the 12 or 13 days of you get these days!
Show me the signed contract that says after Jazz Original PML list is exhausted, AC will hire all Express pilots after!
Show me the signed contract that says after Jazz Original PML list is exhausted, AC will hire all Express pilots after!
Re: Worth the move?
47north:
Not sure where you get your info from but 50% attrition is not even remotely close to being true. Very little turnover on the Q400 and yes, the numbers leaving on the E-175 are higher.
Keep in mind that some do leave for the 18k USD monthly contracts in China or DEC 767 at CargoJet. There is little to be done to keep these people at a regional carrier no matter who it is or the conditions.
I'm not saying things are perfect there but your contentions simply are not the case.
Respectfully..
Not sure where you get your info from but 50% attrition is not even remotely close to being true. Very little turnover on the Q400 and yes, the numbers leaving on the E-175 are higher.
Keep in mind that some do leave for the 18k USD monthly contracts in China or DEC 767 at CargoJet. There is little to be done to keep these people at a regional carrier no matter who it is or the conditions.
I'm not saying things are perfect there but your contentions simply are not the case.
Respectfully..
-
flyer 1492
- Rank 7
- Posts: 561
- Joined: Thu Jan 27, 2005 7:55 pm
Re: Worth the move?
TrailerPark, this is from our MOS.
1. PILOT MOBILITY ARRANGEMENT
The following outlines the process of preferential hiring of current Jazz pilots by Air Canada (AC). Subject at all times to the conditions set forth below, including without limitation, AC’s applicable hiring policies and the number of pilots AC requires, AC shall make offers to pilots on the PML, as defined herein below. From January 1, 2015 until the earlier of (a) the date the PML is exhausted, and (b) the date the ALPA agreement expires or is otherwise terminated, PML pilots shall form no less than 80% of the pilots hired by AC. Once the PML has been exhausted, AC will introduce the FPMA which will apply to all of its contracted regional carriers, including without limitation Jazz and Classic Airline, on a proportional pilot headcount basis.
Any other questions.
Flyer
1. PILOT MOBILITY ARRANGEMENT
The following outlines the process of preferential hiring of current Jazz pilots by Air Canada (AC). Subject at all times to the conditions set forth below, including without limitation, AC’s applicable hiring policies and the number of pilots AC requires, AC shall make offers to pilots on the PML, as defined herein below. From January 1, 2015 until the earlier of (a) the date the PML is exhausted, and (b) the date the ALPA agreement expires or is otherwise terminated, PML pilots shall form no less than 80% of the pilots hired by AC. Once the PML has been exhausted, AC will introduce the FPMA which will apply to all of its contracted regional carriers, including without limitation Jazz and Classic Airline, on a proportional pilot headcount basis.
Any other questions.
Flyer
-
TrailerParkBoy
- Rank 4
- Posts: 205
- Joined: Tue Apr 12, 2005 8:48 pm
Re: Worth the move?
Great! Now go round up all the other Express MOS and tell me what they say about the mobility agreement!
Re: Worth the move?
I'm really getting tired of this bullshit.47north wrote:
A new hire won't take three years to make over $40K. There is lots of overtime to be had if one wants to up their T4. That is only going to increase as the pilot supply tightens.
One should be able to have a decent salary without having to work on his/her days off.
A day off is meant to be spent with friends, family, have fun, do some sports/activites, or just rest/relax.
A day off is a day OFF, not a day spent at work. If you rely on overtime to get a decent salary, then there is a problem...
End of rant
Re: Worth the move?
To answer the original poster:
I was in a similar situation when I came to Jazz. I took the cut in pay. Working conditions were an immediate improvement. Despite what the uninformed think/say of working at Jazz or its future, this is a very good company. I made more than twice what you make last year, had 7 weeks vacation.
If you want stability, stay in Canada, and a chance to move on to AC come to Jazz. If you want to go overseas then go to SR and get your jet time and leave. You will probably get upgraded quicker over there. But don't let anyone fool you that the 2 companies offer similar wawcon. They are light years apart. As for the future, Jazz will become more and more competitive as the next 5 years go by, while the other regionals will suffer a steady increase in cost creep, imo. Good luck.
I was in a similar situation when I came to Jazz. I took the cut in pay. Working conditions were an immediate improvement. Despite what the uninformed think/say of working at Jazz or its future, this is a very good company. I made more than twice what you make last year, had 7 weeks vacation.
If you want stability, stay in Canada, and a chance to move on to AC come to Jazz. If you want to go overseas then go to SR and get your jet time and leave. You will probably get upgraded quicker over there. But don't let anyone fool you that the 2 companies offer similar wawcon. They are light years apart. As for the future, Jazz will become more and more competitive as the next 5 years go by, while the other regionals will suffer a steady increase in cost creep, imo. Good luck.
-
infiniteregulus
- Rank 4
- Posts: 231
- Joined: Sat Apr 18, 2015 3:46 am
Re: Worth the move?
7 weeks vacation at Jazz?? Am I reading that right? haha
Re: Worth the move?
You have to be there 20 years to get 5 weeks + 2 weeks stats for 7 weeks. Some of the overtime kings are pulling in nearly 20k per month right now. Crazy but if you like being at work all the time, fill your boots! 
Let’s Go Brandon
-
TopperHarley
- Rank (9)
- Posts: 1870
- Joined: Fri Feb 20, 2004 2:56 pm
Re: Worth the move?
Isn't OT topped out at 2 days per month?
At that payscale, it's still not easy to make a liveable wage in YYZ or YYC, even if you did your 2 days OT per month.
If you're dying to get out of the north & 704 flying, and you can stomach the horrid payscale for 5 years, then go to jazz. The schedule and work rules will be a big improvement to what you're used to. Otherwise, stay where you are or go for a corporate flying gig with a quick upgrade and try for AC as an off-the-street hire. There have been Jazz pilots PFOd under the PML already, there's no guarantee.
At that payscale, it's still not easy to make a liveable wage in YYZ or YYC, even if you did your 2 days OT per month.
If you're dying to get out of the north & 704 flying, and you can stomach the horrid payscale for 5 years, then go to jazz. The schedule and work rules will be a big improvement to what you're used to. Otherwise, stay where you are or go for a corporate flying gig with a quick upgrade and try for AC as an off-the-street hire. There have been Jazz pilots PFOd under the PML already, there's no guarantee.
"Never travel faster than your guardian angel can fly." - Mother Theresa
Re: Worth the move?
Overtime is unlimited now. Can work overtime on vacation days as well since the new contract.
Let’s Go Brandon
Re: Worth the move?
20k a month? That's absolute bs. way more to that story here then what's being told to potential jazz candidates.
20,000/$110 is 182 credit hours
182 - 82 regular block is 100 hours.
Even 100 hours at 1.5 is
Working an extra 66 hours!
I recall average pairing productivity at Jazz around 4.5-5 hours for most months.
That means buddy is working 13 Extra days atop of 16.
29 days!
Keep dreaming
20,000/$110 is 182 credit hours
182 - 82 regular block is 100 hours.
Even 100 hours at 1.5 is
Working an extra 66 hours!
I recall average pairing productivity at Jazz around 4.5-5 hours for most months.
That means buddy is working 13 Extra days atop of 16.
29 days!
Keep dreaming
Re: Worth the move?
$240K a year at Jazz is impossible. A 20 year guy on the old payscale doing overtime to the max CARS allows might hit $140k.Inverted2 wrote:You have to be there 20 years to get 5 weeks + 2 weeks stats for 7 weeks. Some of the overtime kings are pulling in nearly 20k per month right now. Crazy but if you like being at work all the time, fill your boots!
A new hire would never see even close to that with the new contract.
Re: Worth the move?
A new hire is on the same pay scale Stinky (just 3 years added to it) so yes, they would eventually see that kind of $. And actually I know a Checker who made 180K last year. I know top scale line pilots making 150K. Gotta work for it of course.
Re: Worth the move?
Stinky,
The top scale is 122/hr and most Jazz pilots log about 65 hours a month but get paid 85 credit hours, big difference. At 65 hours flown you can still fly 35 more and be in the 100 hours a month(1200/yr) CARS limit. 35 more flight time could be 45 credit hours, so that's 67.5 hours of pay over and above the 85. To be fair that's the equivalent of working two four day pairings over and above, doable but not realistic. However just one high credit four day extra would add up to aprox 122.5 credit hours in a month which is 15,000 for a yearly 180,000 plus pension and perdiems. i believe training pilots are paid 10% premium.
With 7 weeks of vacation, 7 months of the year, these guys are working 10-12 days freeing them up to do 6 or more days of overtime which could put them quite close to 200gs if not over.
Obviously not the norm, but quite possible.
I do very little ot, but have had months where I was paid 120+ credit hours after ot.
The top scale is 122/hr and most Jazz pilots log about 65 hours a month but get paid 85 credit hours, big difference. At 65 hours flown you can still fly 35 more and be in the 100 hours a month(1200/yr) CARS limit. 35 more flight time could be 45 credit hours, so that's 67.5 hours of pay over and above the 85. To be fair that's the equivalent of working two four day pairings over and above, doable but not realistic. However just one high credit four day extra would add up to aprox 122.5 credit hours in a month which is 15,000 for a yearly 180,000 plus pension and perdiems. i believe training pilots are paid 10% premium.
With 7 weeks of vacation, 7 months of the year, these guys are working 10-12 days freeing them up to do 6 or more days of overtime which could put them quite close to 200gs if not over.
Obviously not the norm, but quite possible.
I do very little ot, but have had months where I was paid 120+ credit hours after ot.
-
TrailerParkBoy
- Rank 4
- Posts: 205
- Joined: Tue Apr 12, 2005 8:48 pm
Re: Worth the move?
Sorry to the original poster on this hijack.
Seems that Jazz IS a good move, because when you put 20 YOS in you will make lots of money and have lots of vacation. Now only if working conditions in 20 years will be the same!
Jazz is a good move from any 704 operator. The new hire pay is the worst and most embarrassing part of the new contract. If you can afford to make less then $40K for the next 3 to 4 years, then go for it. Just don't rely on the OT to make your bread and butter!
Seems that Jazz IS a good move, because when you put 20 YOS in you will make lots of money and have lots of vacation. Now only if working conditions in 20 years will be the same!
Jazz is a good move from any 704 operator. The new hire pay is the worst and most embarrassing part of the new contract. If you can afford to make less then $40K for the next 3 to 4 years, then go for it. Just don't rely on the OT to make your bread and butter!
