I'm trying to understand...

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TrailerParkBoy
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Re: I'm trying to understand...

#26 Post by TrailerParkBoy » Tue Jul 21, 2015 5:41 pm

Krimson wrote:Easy to say when you have a job on an A scale.
It is easy...since we accepted jobs at A scale level...or we would be working for the competition!
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Re: I'm trying to understand...

#27 Post by Krimson » Tue Jul 21, 2015 11:32 pm

rudder wrote:
Krimson wrote:Easy to say when you have a job on an A scale.
Pilots are asking how do we collectively increase the starting pay at CPA carriers? I told them how and using market forces plus a little self discipline will probably achieve the desired result on the quickest possible timeline. Let's not get in to the wages and working conditions that many of us endured until we had enough and decided to act collectively. We all have our stories to tell. And some of us have actually done more than just bitch about it - we acted.

Do nothing and nothing will change. It is that simple.
Who will put food on the table while waiting for the market to swing in favour of new pilots?

I don't forget the wages and working conditions that I have endured trying to get ahead and make it in this industry, and I don't forget that there are others who are doing the same to further their career. Change always happens top down. To sit back and collect a paycheck while telling everyone behind you to not accept work to increase their pay is not very considerate.
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Re: I'm trying to understand...

#28 Post by Krimson » Tue Jul 21, 2015 11:33 pm

TrailerParkBoy wrote:
Krimson wrote:Easy to say when you have a job on an A scale.
It is easy...since we accepted jobs at A scale level...or we would be working for the competition!
And at a time when A scale level entry jobs existed! :D
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Re: I'm trying to understand...

#29 Post by human garbage » Sun Aug 02, 2015 7:36 pm

TrailerParkBoy wrote: ...If I was a traveling salesman, I would claim all my expenses which would most likely be more then $80 or your salary dollars you've added to your normal salary.

If your company expects you to be away from your home for x time, there is a cost associated to that and it shouldn't be at the employees expense!
Damn straight. I'm not airline, but travel a ton too. My company pays all expenses incurred not just some set amount. Its at my discretion. There has to be some perk for living on the road right? I regularly blow the OP's per diem on dinner alone, never mind anything else! A hard day of flying just begs for a big steak and a good bottle of wine at the end IMHO. Brown bag....Pfffft.

Sure I can't go cheap and pocket 'free money', but when you get paid well enough to compensate anyhow, then not an issue. And my idea of well enough starts at almost double the rates in this thread too. That said its a free market. Someone wants to sell themselves for cheap so be it. I can't stop them. I just know I never will. I've left flying a couple of times before. What is one more time?
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Re: I'm trying to understand...

#30 Post by JohnnyHotRocks » Mon Aug 24, 2015 8:52 pm

rudder wrote:I will say this again - if potential applicants would like the starting pay at GGN/SKY/Jazz/Encore to go up, then DONT APPLY!

It is a sellers market and will become even more so in the not so distant future. Which airline is willing to cancel flights over the principle of low starting pay? Nobody that joins today is going to finish their career at a CPA carrier so forfeiting a few numbers in the near term will reap greater earnings rewards over the long term with normalised and reasonable starting pay levels.

Time to educate the carriers on labour market forces.
So how did the entry level pay decrease? Was it the fault of the "outsiders" applying for jobs or did the current union members vote for it to save their salaries?
Just asking
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Re: I'm trying to understand...

#31 Post by Flyboycanada80 » Mon Aug 24, 2015 9:04 pm

JohnnyHotRocks wrote:
rudder wrote:I will say this again - if potential applicants would like the starting pay at GGN/SKY/Jazz/Encore to go up, then DONT APPLY!

It is a sellers market and will become even more so in the not so distant future. Which airline is willing to cancel flights over the principle of low starting pay? Nobody that joins today is going to finish their career at a CPA carrier so forfeiting a few numbers in the near term will reap greater earnings rewards over the long term with normalised and reasonable starting pay levels.

Time to educate the carriers on labour market forces.
So how did the entry level pay decrease? Was it the fault of the "outsiders" applying for jobs or did the current union members vote for it to save their salaries?
Just asking
It was voted in wasn't it? By the Jazz pilots? Helping gut the industry
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Re: I'm trying to understand...

#32 Post by AirMail » Tue Aug 25, 2015 7:20 am

Downward contracts often have a reason. I'm sure Jazz was voted in reluctantly, given the fact of vote this in get 5 yrs added to AC contract and likely future job security beyond 2025, or don't and gamble to see what happens in 2020.

For most pilots job security outweighs salary and usually we like to see the companies we work for succeed, hopefully without to much sacrifice. I'm not justifying the wages at all, it's garbage wages, but I imagine if you were at Jazz you'd likely vote in favour as well. A point to consider, for years Jazz had very decent contracts, this one, not so much at all. But given the past I'm sure the quality of the t&c's will improve over time. Hopefully this is just a short term pain for long term gain, not just for Jazz, but the other regionals who helped lower the bar or those who've always had sewage level wages. Perhaps it won't happen at all as the threat of losing company contracts will suppress 1980s wages forever. Maybe a US style "pilot shortage" at the regional level will appear here.

Why pilots still apply to these places? Very likeliness that their previous job paid less, or given the fact that EI and regional pay is similar many choose to fly a plane rather than a couch. I wouldn't call it a sellers market, a lot of pilots have been laid off this year.
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Re: I'm trying to understand...

#33 Post by teacher » Tue Aug 25, 2015 4:58 pm

Flyboycanada80 wrote:
JohnnyHotRocks wrote:
rudder wrote:I will say this again - if potential applicants would like the starting pay at GGN/SKY/Jazz/Encore to go up, then DONT APPLY!

It is a sellers market and will become even more so in the not so distant future. Which airline is willing to cancel flights over the principle of low starting pay? Nobody that joins today is going to finish their career at a CPA carrier so forfeiting a few numbers in the near term will reap greater earnings rewards over the long term with normalised and reasonable starting pay levels.

Time to educate the carriers on labour market forces.
So how did the entry level pay decrease? Was it the fault of the "outsiders" applying for jobs or did the current union members vote for it to save their salaries?
Just asking
It was voted in wasn't it? By the Jazz pilots? Helping gut the industry
Come close to matching Georgian, Sky Regional and Encore and live. Vote against the contract and lose big in 2020 when the CPA was up. Decision was painful but yet an easy one to make. We played hardball last time and won, for a little while. Than came the "competition" and we were check mated.

Did I see any other pilot groups threaten to shut down the company in order to get a better contract? Air Canada did, anyone else? WJ handed their management cheap labour, Sky and Georgian fired up and we were left as the expensive help ready to be cut. We were out maneuvered, plain and simple.
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Re: I'm trying to understand...

#34 Post by JohnnyHotRocks » Tue Aug 25, 2015 7:27 pm

Who voted for your new contract?...Jazz pilots or the pilots of Skyreg, Georgian, Encore?
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Re: I'm trying to understand...

#35 Post by rxl » Tue Aug 25, 2015 9:52 pm

JohnnyHotRocks wrote:Who voted for your new contract?...Jazz pilots or the pilots of Skyreg, Georgian, Encore?
Of course Jazz pilots voted in favour of the agreement.
What other choice was there?
If we had voted the TA down and potentially gone on strike, (would have been the fourth time for a lot of us) would our colleagues at SR, GGN etc. crossed the picket line? In the three pilot strikes that I have been involved with over the years, NO other pilot group has ever provided support for the cause.
Would the Minister of Labour have tabled back to work legislation?
Was a large amount of the work that we have been doing reliably for a long time for AC being sold off to the lowest bidders?
Put your self in our shoes at the time - what would you have done?
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Re: I'm trying to understand...

#36 Post by teacher » Thu Aug 27, 2015 12:35 pm

JohnnyHotRocks wrote:Who voted for your new contract?...Jazz pilots or the pilots of Skyreg, Georgian, Encore?
They might as well have. They helped make the decision for us.
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Re: I'm trying to understand...

#37 Post by JohnnyHotRocks » Thu Aug 27, 2015 7:09 pm

Always someone elses fault
Now you have lowered the bar as well
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Re: I'm trying to understand...

#38 Post by TrailerParkBoy » Thu Aug 27, 2015 7:41 pm

teacher wrote:
JohnnyHotRocks wrote:Who voted for your new contract?...Jazz pilots or the pilots of Skyreg, Georgian, Encore?
They might as well have. They helped make the decision for us.
I, for one, am embarrassed that we voted in this contract. The main points that suck were overshadowed by the PML. 6 months into this new contract and we start to see and feel the pain of voting YES for the PML....uh hum...I mean contract!

Things that weren't discussed, like Jazz new business model to operate with minimum crew expecting everyone to do OT to pick up the slack...this is shameful! I would have voted a big fat NO...to working more then 19 days per month!
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Re: I'm trying to understand...

#39 Post by rxl » Thu Aug 27, 2015 7:56 pm

JohnnyHotRocks wrote:Always someone elses fault
Now you have lowered the bar as well
Jazz pilots can point to a long collective history of taking responsibility for themselves and for their chosen profession, and can quite easily and confidently say that quite the opposite is true.

Like I said above, we have risked it all by taking legal strike action, not once, not twice but three times in the last 30+ years to raise - or at the very least - to maintain the "bar". What other pilot group has done that?

Jazz pilot VOLUNTEERS working along side their colleagues from other airlines, have spent countless thousands of hours away from family and friends performing valuable work in the fields of aviation safety, pilot support, WHMIS and labour relations. This is work that has helped to produce positive and tangible results - not just for the Jazz pilot group - but for just about anyone who has chosen to make their living by flying airplanes.

LOWERED the "bar"? I don't think so.
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Last edited by rxl on Thu Aug 27, 2015 8:44 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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Re: I'm trying to understand...

#40 Post by JohnnyHotRocks » Thu Aug 27, 2015 8:15 pm

No, every pilot that has flown for low pay instead of collecting unemployment has lowered the bar. Now that will include pilots who work for The new entry level wage at Jazz.
And Jazz pilots never flew 757s for Dash 8 wages either.
Don't misunderstand me here. I have no dog in this fight and hopefully never will. I am just tired of listening to Jazz pilots throughout the years blame every other pilot group for the crap that has gone on in this industry.
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Re: I'm trying to understand...

#41 Post by rxl » Thu Aug 27, 2015 9:17 pm

JohnnyHotRocks wrote: Don't misunderstand me here. I have no dog in this fight and hopefully never will.
With all due respect to you, I'm not so sure that you understand. If you hope to make a long term career out of this business, you most definitely DO have a "dog in this fight". We all have "a dog in this fight".

A huge step in the right direction will be made when we all come to the realization that there is much more to be achieved by working collectively rather than individually in "this fight".

It's "OUR fight".
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Re: I'm trying to understand...

#42 Post by rudder » Sat Aug 29, 2015 8:27 am

New-hire pay rates at Jazz are an embarrassment. However, the rest of the collective agreement is the top of the heap for all of the CPA carriers in North America and that is by a significant margin.

New-hire pay rates will correct themselves when Jazz is no longer able to attract enough pilots to cover attrition rates.
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