Fleet growth 5 new Qs, 5 new 705 within the next two years.

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Stinky
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Re: Fleet growth 5 new Qs, 5 new 705 within the next two ye

Post by Stinky »

DropTanks wrote:What does the Captain side look like?
It's another "not a B scale" situation. I believe before the new contract you would be paid based on your years of service, now you start at year 1 captain pay once you upgrade even if you've been at Jazz for 10 years.
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Maxpwr
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Re: Fleet growth 5 new Qs, 5 new 705 within the next two ye

Post by Maxpwr »

Stinky wrote:
DropTanks wrote:What does the Captain side look like?
It's another "not a B scale" situation. I believe before the new contract you would be paid based on your years of service, now you start at year 1 captain pay once you upgrade even if you've been at Jazz for 10 years.
Does that apply to all new upgrades? Or only those hired after this contract?
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TrailerParkBoy
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Re: Fleet growth 5 new Qs, 5 new 705 within the next two ye

Post by TrailerParkBoy »

Pay Scale for those hired Prior to Contract
Screenshot_2015-10-04-20-45-50-1.png
Screenshot_2015-10-04-20-45-50-1.png (134.42 KiB) Viewed 3932 times
New Hire payscale
Screenshot_2015-10-04-20-45-44-1.png
Screenshot_2015-10-04-20-45-44-1.png (159.56 KiB) Viewed 3932 times
I've never seen a pay scale where the FO makes more then a Captain!
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TrailerParkBoy
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Re: Fleet growth 5 new Qs, 5 new 705 within the next two ye

Post by TrailerParkBoy »

Maxpwr wrote:
Stinky wrote:
DropTanks wrote:What does the Captain side look like?
It's another "not a B scale" situation. I believe before the new contract you would be paid based on your years of service, now you start at year 1 captain pay once you upgrade even if you've been at Jazz for 10 years.
Does that apply to all new upgrades? Or only those hired after this contract?
It applies to all who would be on the B Scale (New Hire) Pay Scale.

This includes New Hires and those who signed up on the PML but turn down the AC Interview or turn down the AC job offer, including those captains who have been at Jazz for 17+ years and gets bumped off the CRJ or Q400 to fly the Classic!
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TheStig
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Re: Fleet growth 5 new Qs, 5 new 705 within the next two ye

Post by TheStig »

Time to move on. ALPA, it's Jazz members, and the airline did what needed to be done to survive. Air Canada needs its employees to be paid market rates, just that simple, this contract was a foregone conclusion the days Encore opened its doors.

I think everyone on this forum would love to see all pilots in this country earning at a minimum a 6 figure salary, and personally, I think we deserve every penny. However, it's important to look at the current environment before you start pointing fingers. If ALPA hadn't created this pay scale what do you think would have happened? If Jazz's pilots had walked off the job they would have either faced the same situation the mainline pilots did in 2012 and had an even worse contract forced upon them. More likely, they would have simply watched from the picket line as their flying was absorbed by Mainline, Sky Regional and Georgian and found themselves unemployed. Pilots at Jazz were well aware of this and voted accordingly, any of us in the same situation would have done the same, so please get off your soap boxes.
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cdnpilot77
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Re: Fleet growth 5 new Qs, 5 new 705 within the next two ye

Post by cdnpilot77 »

TheStig wrote:Time to move on. ALPA, it's Jazz members, and the airline did what needed to be done to survive. Air Canada needs its employees to be paid market rates, just that simple, this contract was a foregone conclusion the days Encore opened its doors.

I think everyone on this forum would love to see all pilots in this country earning at a minimum a 6 figure salary, and personally, I think we deserve every penny. However, it's important to look at the current environment before you start pointing fingers. If ALPA hadn't created this pay scale what do you think would have happened? If Jazz's pilots had walked off the job they would have either faced the same situation the mainline pilots did in 2012 and had an even worse contract forced upon them. More likely, they would have simply watched from the picket line as their flying was absorbed by Mainline, Sky Regional and Georgian and found themselves unemployed. Pilots at Jazz were well aware of this and voted accordingly, any of us in the same situation would have done the same, so please get off your soap boxes.
Easy to say when you ARE making well into the 6 figures!

Edit: I have no dog in this fight and very happy where I am, but t & c's effect us all, except for those at the top.
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BingBong
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Re: Fleet growth 5 new Qs, 5 new 705 within the next two ye

Post by BingBong »

cdnpilot77 wrote:
TheStig wrote:Time to move on. ALPA, it's Jazz members, and the airline did what needed to be done to survive. Air Canada needs its employees to be paid market rates, just that simple, this contract was a foregone conclusion the days Encore opened its doors.

I think everyone on this forum would love to see all pilots in this country earning at a minimum a 6 figure salary, and personally, I think we deserve every penny. However, it's important to look at the current environment before you start pointing fingers. If ALPA hadn't created this pay scale what do you think would have happened? If Jazz's pilots had walked off the job they would have either faced the same situation the mainline pilots did in 2012 and had an even worse contract forced upon them. More likely, they would have simply watched from the picket line as their flying was absorbed by Mainline, Sky Regional and Georgian and found themselves unemployed. Pilots at Jazz were well aware of this and voted accordingly, any of us in the same situation would have done the same, so please get off your soap boxes.
Easy to say when you ARE making well into the 6 figures!

Edit: I have no dog in this fight and very happy where I am, but t & c's effect us all, except for those at the top.

Your right it does affect you all. Imagine if sky and Georgian took over everything at THEIR rates. What would your 703/704 companies be offering you then???
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teacher
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Re: Fleet growth 5 new Qs, 5 new 705 within the next two ye

Post by teacher »

cdnpilot77 wrote:
TheStig wrote:Time to move on. ALPA, it's Jazz members, and the airline did what needed to be done to survive. Air Canada needs its employees to be paid market rates, just that simple, this contract was a foregone conclusion the days Encore opened its doors.

I think everyone on this forum would love to see all pilots in this country earning at a minimum a 6 figure salary, and personally, I think we deserve every penny. However, it's important to look at the current environment before you start pointing fingers. If ALPA hadn't created this pay scale what do you think would have happened? If Jazz's pilots had walked off the job they would have either faced the same situation the mainline pilots did in 2012 and had an even worse contract forced upon them. More likely, they would have simply watched from the picket line as their flying was absorbed by Mainline, Sky Regional and Georgian and found themselves unemployed. Pilots at Jazz were well aware of this and voted accordingly, any of us in the same situation would have done the same, so please get off your soap boxes.
Easy to say when you ARE making well into the 6 figures!

Edit: I have no dog in this fight and very happy where I am, but t & c's effect us all, except for those at the top.
cdnpilot77 it is not easier. TheStig is right and I 'very said it many times before. Nothing would have been gained at this point from fighting AC and Chorus. Our fate was sealed with the introduction of other regional carriers paying "70% of market wages not including Jazz".

What would have AC and Chorus done had we rejected the TA and gone on strike? Paid up? Gave into our demands? The writing was on the wall plain enough for everyone to see. They created a deal that would pass a vote by the membership and attempt to mitigate the pain for new hires. Does it suck that we had to go down this road? Of course! How ever the alternative was a lot less desirable.

Respectfully cdnpilot77 having the good job making the good money that you do without having a dog in this fight and being happy where you are makes it easy for you to stand on the side lines and criticize doesn't it?
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cdnpilot77
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Re: Fleet growth 5 new Qs, 5 new 705 within the next two ye

Post by cdnpilot77 »

Teacher,

Respectively, I don't entirely disagree with you. But where TheStig is wrong is being at the very pinnacle of the game at AC and telling the 90% who will never ever see anywhere but a fraction of his earnings (myself included) in their entire career, to essentially to suck it up. They fought, you fought but we should all just lie down and take it. That's the message.

I would say that it's certainly easier for people in that position to be standing on the sidelines and criticize the lower echelon for wanting more, or at the very least what he had?

I very clearly understand why the situation is what it is, doesn't mean I have to agree with it or the justification of it.
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TheStig
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Re: Fleet growth 5 new Qs, 5 new 705 within the next two ye

Post by TheStig »

cdnpilot77 wrote:Teacher,

Respectively, I don't entirely disagree with you. But where TheStig is wrong is being at the very pinnacle of the game at AC and telling the 90% who will never ever see anywhere but a fraction of his earnings (myself included) in their entire career, to essentially to suck it up. They fought, you fought but we should all just lie down and take it. That's the message.

I would say that it's certainly easier for people in that position to be standing on the sidelines and criticize the lower echelon for wanting more, or at the very least what he had?

I very clearly understand why the situation is what it is, doesn't mean I have to agree with it or the justification of it.
Cdnpilot77, your point is taken, I'll try to mind my own business. I certainly didn't intend to sound condescending, I've never considered myself to be at the pinnacle of the game. My intention was to simply offer support to those at Jazz who were forced to deal with a difficult choice and ask that the name calling stop. At AC we've been dealt our lumps too.
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Re: Fleet growth 5 new Qs, 5 new 705 within the next two ye

Post by cdnpilot77 »

TheStig wrote:
cdnpilot77 wrote:Teacher,

Respectively, I don't entirely disagree with you. But where TheStig is wrong is being at the very pinnacle of the game at AC and telling the 90% who will never ever see anywhere but a fraction of his earnings (myself included) in their entire career, to essentially to suck it up. They fought, you fought but we should all just lie down and take it. That's the message.

I would say that it's certainly easier for people in that position to be standing on the sidelines and criticize the lower echelon for wanting more, or at the very least what he had?

I very clearly understand why the situation is what it is, doesn't mean I have to agree with it or the justification of it.
Cdnpilot77, your point is taken, I'll try to mind my own business. I certainly didn't intend to sound condescending, I've never considered myself to be at the pinnacle of the game. My intention was to simply offer support to those at Jazz who were forced to deal with a difficult choice and ask that the name calling stop. At AC we've been dealt our lumps too.
TheStig,

I am defiantly not suggesting that anyone should mind their own business. Everyone is very much entitled to their opinion and to voice it. I know you've been dealt lumps at AC, but there has always been some sort of correction or positive movement, no? We certainly don't see that happening anytime soon for the good people who will join jazz or the other regionals.

What I really don't want to see is an erosion like we have In The U.S. SilverAirways, pays their Saab f/o's $19k/yr and forced to live in Ft. Lauderdale or Atlanta or the DC area. It is disgusting. I shudder to think of such a day!!

I was shocked while at sim training one year. My sim partner had >4000hrs and had been applying for a DEC at a notable US jet operating regional carrier. He was desperate for that job! What did it pay? $41,000/yr! Why do we want to work towards this, instead of away from it and then justify it?
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ourkid2000
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Re: Fleet growth 5 new Qs, 5 new 705 within the next two ye

Post by ourkid2000 »

I was shocked while at sim training one year. My sim partner had >4000hrs and had been applying for a DEC at a notable US jet operating regional carrier. He was desperate for that job! What did it pay? $41,000/yr! Why do we want to work towards this, instead of away from it and then justify it?
Because you're the most divided professionals in North America. The industry has worked very hard to create this situation and you now have ZERO bargaining power.
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TrailerParkBoy
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Re: Fleet growth 5 new Qs, 5 new 705 within the next two ye

Post by TrailerParkBoy »

If the Jazz pilots said NO to the TA, it doesn't mean strike! The TA proposed by ALPA was 90% good. The problem is that the 10% that was shit, wasn't worth voting NO.

Lots of carrots dangled in front of the group. Actually, it was more like leverage, or a guilt trip. "If you vote NO, we will lose this; if we don't vote by this date we will lose this!"

We have to trust the MEC, right?

It's just unfortunate that ALPA joined the race to the bottom!
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AirMail
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Re: Fleet growth 5 new Qs, 5 new 705 within the next two ye

Post by AirMail »

And what of 2025? Another take these cuts or get the boot? Where/when does the race to the bottom end? When will pilot have enough? (Not just Jazz but all regionals ).

Also ALPA (any union) dues should be reduced percentage wise for paycuts they allow. Won't happen, just in my rose coloured world
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av8ts
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Re: Fleet growth 5 new Qs, 5 new 705 within the next two ye

Post by av8ts »

ALPA dues are already based on % of pay.
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TrailerParkBoy
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Re: Fleet growth 5 new Qs, 5 new 705 within the next two ye

Post by TrailerParkBoy »

Unfortunately, Jazz is no longer a lifetime career option. This was confirmed from Jazz during the roadshow telling us that our pilots are too expensive to be competitive with other Regionals for AC.

I still don't know why the payscale for FOs goes to 15 years (from 12 yrs) and Capt to 20 yrs (from 17 yrs). It should have gone the other way and make less levels of pay.

However, it's tough to squeeze in the 3 extra years to make it seem like there is no B Scale!
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AirMail
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Re: Fleet growth 5 new Qs, 5 new 705 within the next two ye

Post by AirMail »

av8ts wrote:ALPA dues are already based on % of pay.
I know, and it's what 3%... should be reduced like the pay to 2% or whatnot
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av8ts
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Re: Fleet growth 5 new Qs, 5 new 705 within the next two ye

Post by av8ts »

AirMail wrote:
av8ts wrote:ALPA dues are already based on % of pay.
I know, and it's what 3%... should be reduced like the pay to 2% or whatnot
Well you should be very happy then because it's 1.9%
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AirMail
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Re: Fleet growth 5 new Qs, 5 new 705 within the next two ye

Post by AirMail »

lol ok so my source was wrong, none the less you get my point :wink:
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TheStig
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Re: Fleet growth 5 new Qs, 5 new 705 within the next two ye

Post by TheStig »

cdnpilot77 wrote:I know you've been dealt lumps at AC, but there has always been some sort of correction or positive movement, no? We certainly don't see that happening anytime soon for the good people who will join jazz or the other regionals.
This is where I disagree. As the title of this thread shows, Jazz is growing. The plan for Jazz is to offset their higher costs by replacing it's 37-50 aircraft with 75-78 seat Q400's and 705's. For the first time in a long time Air Canada is growing and this agreement allows Jazz to be part of the plan. If you've been following along you'll having noticed that Air Canada has been increasing capacity by about 10% annually since 2012, with WJ hovering around 6-7% despite AC flying 3 times as many ASM's. In order for this to happen, and continue, everyone has had to make some concessions.

Maybe I'm being naive and drinking the kool-aid too much, but the plan CR has put in motion has already started bearing some fruit. The LCC has drastically slowed WJ's expansion and provided AC with a tool to compete in price sensitive markets. While the new contract at Jazz has allowed pilots an opportunity to move to mainline without having to take a massive short term pay cut. While pilots remaining at Jazz have seem upgrade times drop dramatically, but more importantly the company they work for has stability again. While I don't like seeing pilots at AC flying at two different pay scales for the same type of aircraft, just as pilots at Jazz must dislike the capped 'Classic' Dash-8 pay scale, I do understand why they exist and that nothing that's changed is done so in isolation.
cdnpilot77 wrote:What I really don't want to see is an erosion like we have In The U.S. SilverAirways, pays their Saab f/o's $19k/yr and forced to live in Ft. Lauderdale or Atlanta or the DC area. It is disgusting. I shudder to think of such a day!!
Nobody wants to see that, and I think if you were a 1000-2000 hour pilot looking to move to a regional airline, Jazz would provide one of the best compensation packages. I'm not very well tuned into the airline employment market in the US, but I'm under the impression the pendulum is quickly swinging the other way. It's hard to say where the bottom will be in Canada, I'd like to think salaries have already hit the floor as airlines are projected to continue hiring for the foreseeable future, however that certainly would not be the case if 1000+ Jazz pilots found themselves unemployed and fighting for jobs at GGN, SR and Encore.
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