Fleet growth 5 new Qs, 5 new 705 within the next two years.

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cdnpilot77
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Re: Fleet growth 5 new Qs, 5 new 705 within the next two ye

#51 Post by cdnpilot77 » Tue Oct 06, 2015 7:15 am

TheStig wrote:
cdnpilot77 wrote:Teacher,

Respectively, I don't entirely disagree with you. But where TheStig is wrong is being at the very pinnacle of the game at AC and telling the 90% who will never ever see anywhere but a fraction of his earnings (myself included) in their entire career, to essentially to suck it up. They fought, you fought but we should all just lie down and take it. That's the message.

I would say that it's certainly easier for people in that position to be standing on the sidelines and criticize the lower echelon for wanting more, or at the very least what he had?

I very clearly understand why the situation is what it is, doesn't mean I have to agree with it or the justification of it.
Cdnpilot77, your point is taken, I'll try to mind my own business. I certainly didn't intend to sound condescending, I've never considered myself to be at the pinnacle of the game. My intention was to simply offer support to those at Jazz who were forced to deal with a difficult choice and ask that the name calling stop. At AC we've been dealt our lumps too.
TheStig,

I am defiantly not suggesting that anyone should mind their own business. Everyone is very much entitled to their opinion and to voice it. I know you've been dealt lumps at AC, but there has always been some sort of correction or positive movement, no? We certainly don't see that happening anytime soon for the good people who will join jazz or the other regionals.

What I really don't want to see is an erosion like we have In The U.S. SilverAirways, pays their Saab f/o's $19k/yr and forced to live in Ft. Lauderdale or Atlanta or the DC area. It is disgusting. I shudder to think of such a day!!

I was shocked while at sim training one year. My sim partner had >4000hrs and had been applying for a DEC at a notable US jet operating regional carrier. He was desperate for that job! What did it pay? $41,000/yr! Why do we want to work towards this, instead of away from it and then justify it?
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Re: Fleet growth 5 new Qs, 5 new 705 within the next two ye

#52 Post by ourkid2000 » Tue Oct 06, 2015 3:43 pm

I was shocked while at sim training one year. My sim partner had >4000hrs and had been applying for a DEC at a notable US jet operating regional carrier. He was desperate for that job! What did it pay? $41,000/yr! Why do we want to work towards this, instead of away from it and then justify it?
Because you're the most divided professionals in North America. The industry has worked very hard to create this situation and you now have ZERO bargaining power.
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Re: Fleet growth 5 new Qs, 5 new 705 within the next two ye

#53 Post by TrailerParkBoy » Tue Oct 06, 2015 5:14 pm

If the Jazz pilots said NO to the TA, it doesn't mean strike! The TA proposed by ALPA was 90% good. The problem is that the 10% that was shit, wasn't worth voting NO.

Lots of carrots dangled in front of the group. Actually, it was more like leverage, or a guilt trip. "If you vote NO, we will lose this; if we don't vote by this date we will lose this!"

We have to trust the MEC, right?

It's just unfortunate that ALPA joined the race to the bottom!
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Re: Fleet growth 5 new Qs, 5 new 705 within the next two ye

#54 Post by AirMail » Tue Oct 06, 2015 7:51 pm

And what of 2025? Another take these cuts or get the boot? Where/when does the race to the bottom end? When will pilot have enough? (Not just Jazz but all regionals ).

Also ALPA (any union) dues should be reduced percentage wise for paycuts they allow. Won't happen, just in my rose coloured world
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Re: Fleet growth 5 new Qs, 5 new 705 within the next two ye

#55 Post by av8ts » Wed Oct 07, 2015 5:08 am

ALPA dues are already based on % of pay.
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Re: Fleet growth 5 new Qs, 5 new 705 within the next two ye

#56 Post by TrailerParkBoy » Wed Oct 07, 2015 6:44 am

Unfortunately, Jazz is no longer a lifetime career option. This was confirmed from Jazz during the roadshow telling us that our pilots are too expensive to be competitive with other Regionals for AC.

I still don't know why the payscale for FOs goes to 15 years (from 12 yrs) and Capt to 20 yrs (from 17 yrs). It should have gone the other way and make less levels of pay.

However, it's tough to squeeze in the 3 extra years to make it seem like there is no B Scale!
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Re: Fleet growth 5 new Qs, 5 new 705 within the next two ye

#57 Post by AirMail » Wed Oct 07, 2015 7:58 am

av8ts wrote:ALPA dues are already based on % of pay.
I know, and it's what 3%... should be reduced like the pay to 2% or whatnot
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Re: Fleet growth 5 new Qs, 5 new 705 within the next two ye

#58 Post by av8ts » Wed Oct 07, 2015 10:30 am

AirMail wrote:
av8ts wrote:ALPA dues are already based on % of pay.
I know, and it's what 3%... should be reduced like the pay to 2% or whatnot
Well you should be very happy then because it's 1.9%
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Re: Fleet growth 5 new Qs, 5 new 705 within the next two ye

#59 Post by AirMail » Wed Oct 07, 2015 1:09 pm

lol ok so my source was wrong, none the less you get my point :wink:
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Re: Fleet growth 5 new Qs, 5 new 705 within the next two ye

#60 Post by TheStig » Wed Oct 07, 2015 2:01 pm

cdnpilot77 wrote:I know you've been dealt lumps at AC, but there has always been some sort of correction or positive movement, no? We certainly don't see that happening anytime soon for the good people who will join jazz or the other regionals.
This is where I disagree. As the title of this thread shows, Jazz is growing. The plan for Jazz is to offset their higher costs by replacing it's 37-50 aircraft with 75-78 seat Q400's and 705's. For the first time in a long time Air Canada is growing and this agreement allows Jazz to be part of the plan. If you've been following along you'll having noticed that Air Canada has been increasing capacity by about 10% annually since 2012, with WJ hovering around 6-7% despite AC flying 3 times as many ASM's. In order for this to happen, and continue, everyone has had to make some concessions.

Maybe I'm being naive and drinking the kool-aid too much, but the plan CR has put in motion has already started bearing some fruit. The LCC has drastically slowed WJ's expansion and provided AC with a tool to compete in price sensitive markets. While the new contract at Jazz has allowed pilots an opportunity to move to mainline without having to take a massive short term pay cut. While pilots remaining at Jazz have seem upgrade times drop dramatically, but more importantly the company they work for has stability again. While I don't like seeing pilots at AC flying at two different pay scales for the same type of aircraft, just as pilots at Jazz must dislike the capped 'Classic' Dash-8 pay scale, I do understand why they exist and that nothing that's changed is done so in isolation.
cdnpilot77 wrote:What I really don't want to see is an erosion like we have In The U.S. SilverAirways, pays their Saab f/o's $19k/yr and forced to live in Ft. Lauderdale or Atlanta or the DC area. It is disgusting. I shudder to think of such a day!!
Nobody wants to see that, and I think if you were a 1000-2000 hour pilot looking to move to a regional airline, Jazz would provide one of the best compensation packages. I'm not very well tuned into the airline employment market in the US, but I'm under the impression the pendulum is quickly swinging the other way. It's hard to say where the bottom will be in Canada, I'd like to think salaries have already hit the floor as airlines are projected to continue hiring for the foreseeable future, however that certainly would not be the case if 1000+ Jazz pilots found themselves unemployed and fighting for jobs at GGN, SR and Encore.
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Re: Fleet growth 5 new Qs, 5 new 705 within the next two ye

#61 Post by cdnpilot77 » Wed Oct 07, 2015 6:13 pm

TheStig,

Those are all respectable points and interesting numbers. I haven't followed so closely to know the growth numbers. However, there are a couple of points where we will continue to disagree.

It is mostly irrelevant here except that it sets a benchmark for heinous pay structures, but I don't think the pendulum is swaying in the U.S. at all except at the legacy carriers. Those bottom feeders are still getting away with paying peanuts and there is a line up of elephants because they all want to get to the legacies. Where there is not, the companies are more than willing to contract. They seem to make more money, by taking less flying, than having to cancel flights because they can't crew them. A curious strategy to say the least.

Secondly, while the benefit to those currently at Jazz is undoubtedly positive and the growth is hand in hand with AC, it is more than partially on the backs of any newcomers which allow the growth as the regular attrition and attrition from the PML maxes out. We are told this growth wouldn't have been possible without creating this new pay scale. Call it a B scale, call it a table, call it a green tomato for all I care, but let's look at it and see it for what it truly is. It's a step in the wrong direction and CR was able to exploit the relationship with Jazz because of the likes of Sky and Georgian.

Once again, I understand very clearly why the members and the very good people at Jazz had to ratify this agreement, but it does not mean that we should champion it as a great success. It was a life raft to what COULD have been a sinking ship. I have friends at Jazz, some of them very long term, and I can't express how grateful I am that they still have stable employment.
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Re: Fleet growth 5 new Qs, 5 new 705 within the next two ye

#62 Post by biatch » Thu Oct 08, 2015 7:52 am

It's on the backs of newcomers by design. Not very many pre contract pilots wanted to give up their share for some pilot who hasn't put skin in the game. It's the price of admission.
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Re: Fleet growth 5 new Qs, 5 new 705 within the next two ye

#63 Post by upintheair_ » Fri Oct 09, 2015 8:21 am

ourkid2000 wrote:
I was shocked while at sim training one year. My sim partner had >4000hrs and had been applying for a DEC at a notable US jet operating regional carrier. He was desperate for that job! What did it pay? $41,000/yr! Why do we want to work towards this, instead of away from it and then justify it?
Because you're the most divided professionals in North America. The industry has worked very hard to create this situation and you now have ZERO bargaining power.
There will always be people who drag the industry down. It goes down to the lower levels too. I know of some pilots at a certain operator in Canada that get paid $1000/month. As PIC on a single engine aircraft flying cargo and people. Yes, that's right... $1000 and month. As long as there are people willing to take those jobs for the sake of "experience" they will always exist.

Jazz on the other hand while the pay has declined is by no means, in my opinion... the same. With the rising cost of fuel, the loss of income generated for middle class families (who still need to travel), the costs of flying must remain low to sustain viability. If that means you make $40K/yr for the first year instead of $46k, that's the way it is. The golden age of aviation has come and gone and unfortunately this is the future. In the long run, Pilots are still going to make a lot more money than the average middle class family.
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Re: Fleet growth 5 new Qs, 5 new 705 within the next two ye

#64 Post by Canadian Skyhawk » Fri Oct 09, 2015 9:10 pm

I have been following the numbers and I just don't see anything positive for Jazz in these announcements.

Even with the revised fleet numbers from the recent September 28 press release, the fleet will drop from its current 125 aircraft (27 Q400, 16 CRJ705, 34 Dash8-100, 26 Dash8-300 and 25 CRJ200) to 96 aircraft in 2025 (49 Q400, 21 CRJ705 and 26 Dash8-300). How is this good for pilots jobs? There'll be fewer jobs at Jazz.

The available seat capacity will also drop by 6% (previously a 9% drop stated in the February 2nd press release announcing the new CPA). As a previous poster stated above, this is in the face of annual growth of 10% at AC (measured in ASM - Avallable Seat Miles). Hmmm, I wonder where all that growth is going??

Oh yeah, GGN is adding another 7 aircraft (that's a doubling of the fleet) and SR is adding 5 E175s (a 25% overall fleet increase) - and that's just in the next twelve months, not in the next ten years.

Furthermore, as of this year, Jazz is no longer being paid on a cost-plus-12.5% basis (now that was a sweet deal!) and is now getting paid a fixed fee (just like every other subcontracting regional carrier in North America). Gee, do you think that suddenly management might try to start chopping costs compared to previous years? Does anyone really think that the new B-scale isn't just the beginning?

CR's strategy of "commoditizing" regional flying in Canada and having multiple companies bidding for AC's regional routes is coming to fruition, as the honeymoon with Jazz - which actually used to belong entirely to AC but has been a completely distinct publicly traded company for a number of years - is now completely over.

Please don't shoot the messenger. I am saddened by the state of aviation in Canada and the trend it is on. However there is no sense in denying reality - and the numbers are talking loudly. Jazz is slowly being transformed into just another GGN or SR. It'll be a slow and torturous bloodletting process by a thousand small cuts - while management celebrates each new "cost reduction".

Or maybe I just haven't been drinking the right Kool-Aid.............

Safe Flying.
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Re: Fleet growth 5 new Qs, 5 new 705 within the next two ye

#65 Post by Oxi » Sat Oct 10, 2015 5:41 pm

The Jazz fleet will be 106 aircraft now with the announcement of 5 more Q's and 5 more 705s.

Curious which 7 aircraft Georgian will be getting?
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Re: Fleet growth 5 new Qs, 5 new 705 within the next two ye

#66 Post by FighterPilot » Sat Oct 10, 2015 7:16 pm

The oldest, shittiest, clapped out airframes they have to offer. :mrgreen:
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Re: Fleet growth 5 new Qs, 5 new 705 within the next two ye

#67 Post by Splash » Sat Oct 10, 2015 9:07 pm

Oxi wrote:The Jazz fleet will be 106 aircraft now with the announcement of 5 more Q's and 5 more 705s.

Curious which 7 aircraft Georgian will be getting?
My guess is that they will be getting 7 more CRJ200's. I wouldn't be surprised if the come from Jazz. They currently have about 8 clapped-out CRJ100's from AC original order back in the early 90's. If that transfer occurs,it's possible that all 15 CRJ200's that Jazz ordered could be destined to CGN. The wild card is if CGN will start operating DH1's,considering that they can likely operate them viably(if you know what I mean).
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Re: Fleet growth 5 new Qs, 5 new 705 within the next two ye

#68 Post by Canadian Skyhawk » Sun Oct 11, 2015 5:28 am

My math shows the Jazz fleet in 2025 at 96 after recent additions: 49 Q400, 21 CRJ705 and 26 Dash8-300. These numbers are straight out of the Chorus Aviation press release of September 28. Here's the link:

http://chorusaviation.ca/2015-09-28-Cho ... ft-by-2017

The Dash8-300 numbers are unchanged from today, as per February 2nd press release. If you have better info, please advise.

Fly Safe.
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Re: Fleet growth 5 new Qs, 5 new 705 within the next two ye

#69 Post by rudder » Sun Oct 11, 2015 7:37 am

Splash wrote:
Oxi wrote:The Jazz fleet will be 106 aircraft now with the announcement of 5 more Q's and 5 more 705s.

Curious which 7 aircraft Georgian will be getting?
My guess is that they will be getting 7 more CRJ200's. I wouldn't be surprised if the come from Jazz. They currently have about 8 clapped-out CRJ100's from AC original order back in the early 90's. If that transfer occurs,it's possible that all 15 CRJ200's that Jazz ordered could be destined to CGN. The wild card is if CGN will start operating DH1's,considering that they can likely operate them viably(if you know what I mean).
Georgian originally placed in to service 5 former CRJ100's from AC/Jazz that were no longer in active service. It was subsequently announced by AC that the Georgian CRJ fleet would be comprised of 2 CRJ100's and 4 CRJ200's by the end of 2015. The first CRJ200 arrived on the Georgian property in the spring and was a transfer from Jazz. It was then announced internally at Georgian that 8 additional CRJ200's would be added to the Georgian operated AC Express fleet between December 2015 and June 2016. The 12 CRJ200's that will eventually comprise the Georgian CRJ fleet will likely all be transfers from Jazz on a CRJ fleet reduction schedule that forms part of the Chorus CPA with AC. Jazz wil continue to operate 13 CRJ200's in 2016 reducing to 10 CRJ200's in 2017 through 2019. AC has begun to substitute CRJ's on to former transborder D8 routes. It is also likely that these CRJ aircraft and the associated routes will be the source of Georgian aircraft and expanded AC Express flying.
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