Winter Bid released today.

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fish4life
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Re: Winter Bid released today.

#26 Post by fish4life » Sun Aug 14, 2016 3:16 pm

Well that is really unfortunate then.
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Re: Winter Bid released today.

#27 Post by Maxpwr » Sun Aug 14, 2016 5:44 pm

Anybody being reduced can bump into any position they can hold. Most likely onto the Q in YYZ. So most likely those getting punted out of YYZ will be junior DH8 and Junior Q Capts. This is a very interesting situation actually because I thought all the overflow would have been taken up by mainline PML. Is that not the case? I'll be interested to hear the date of hire of the guys being punted out of YYZ.
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Re: Winter Bid released today.

#28 Post by Tail-Chaser » Sun Aug 14, 2016 6:28 pm

Anyone want to hazard a guess as to how senior you'd have to be to hold a YVR RJ FO spot?
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Re: Winter Bid released today.

#29 Post by Canoehead » Sun Aug 14, 2016 7:17 pm

Rowdy wrote:So everyone is complaining when there are still over 100 vacancies system wide even with the reduction of the yyj RJ base and a hit to the Yyc Q base that has been predominantly doing Yvr flying. Hmmm....

Can't blame GGN or SKR.. I mean we will soon have the entire Q operation from the latter. And the purchase of additional 705/900's.

You are new at Jazz, aren't you?
Why don't you ask someone who is familiar with the history of the what's happened in the last 10 years at Jazz and AC.
Have you been displaced from a position or base yet?
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Re: Winter Bid released today.

#30 Post by Oxi » Sun Aug 14, 2016 9:36 pm

Exactly!
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Re: Winter Bid released today.

#31 Post by TheStig » Mon Aug 15, 2016 9:21 am

PROC_HDG wrote:
You are right, and don't forget to throw ACPA into the mix, as it's many years of scope lets that have allowed the regionals to "prosper".
PROC_HDG
There's some truth to that but here a bit of expanded history. The original SR let YTZ Let should have never happened, it was the product of a runaway MEC who also created rouge and the creation of Defined Contribution pension plans for AC new hires. The ACPA scope Chair from that period is now in management...

In the early 1990's the newly created ACPA fought hard to secure 25 RJ's on behalf of 243 pilots on layoff, once again during CCAA ACPA battled to keep scope at 50 seats only to see an arbitrated settlement award Jazz 15 CRJ705's and Air Canada 15 E175's. To it's credit 2011's 'TA1' did protect the E175 flying at AC, however, if I recall correctly there were some scope changes?

It doesn't really matter though as the membership voted TA1 down only to be led down the garden path to once again to arbitration. The terms of the Protecting Air Services Act dictated that each side submit an all or nothing proposal. Individual items such as the creation of the LCC,wages, pension changes and scope were not individually arbitrated. ACPA lost FOS, big time, the company used the occasion to gut the scope language, and shift the limit to 75 seats at tier 2.

After 2012 the scope limit was also controlled by a domestic ASM ratio between mainline and the feeders. This was soon proving a challenge for both AC and ACPA (or so we were told...) and was changed to a aircraft fin ratio in the ACPA 2014 contract.

The biggest change to scope from the tier 2 standpoint, was the Let to allow carriers other than Jazz to operate on behalf of Air Canada. The reality is airlines are under constant pressure to drive costs down. The introduction to the market of Porter and (moreso) Encore required Air Canada to reduce costs in the regional market or watch them wither. Instead of pointing fingers at one carrier or another, pilots need to find a way to organize their efforts to improve wages across the board.
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Re: Winter Bid released today.

#32 Post by Rowdy » Mon Aug 15, 2016 10:40 am

Canoehead wrote:

You are new at Jazz, aren't you?
Why don't you ask someone who is familiar with the history of the what's happened in the last 10 years at Jazz and AC.
Have you been displaced from a position or base yet?
I grew up in the industry and have watched first hand what has happened at AC, and the regionals long before they became jazz. The Yvr bases have consistently been very senior and have seen mostly reductions over the years. I watched my father get bumped out multiple times and even back into a sideways seat. Watched the closure of the Victoria base. The loss of the bae146. The battle for the CRJ and the eventual loss of it from the base.

I feel for those in Toronto that will now have to commute or move off the jet. It is unfortunate for sure. Much like the closure of many other bases over the years have affected many lives.
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Re: Winter Bid released today.

#33 Post by mbav8r » Mon Aug 15, 2016 3:19 pm

Rowdy wrote:So everyone is complaining when there are still over 100 vacancies system wide even with the reduction of the yyj RJ base and a hit to the Yyc Q base that has been predominantly doing Yvr flying. Hmmm....

Can't blame GGN or SKR.. I mean we will soon have the entire Q operation from the latter. And the purchase of additional 705/900's.
So you lived it yet this post seems to have little empathy for how it will ultimately affect up to 400 Jazz pilots, can I assume you won't be affected?
Here's my story, after waiting nearly 10 years to even be able to hold a left seat, that's right first time I was able to hold left seat at any base was one year ago at 9 years in. I bid it with about 30 or so below me and before I even start the training a new bid comes out where if I can hold it at my base it will be bottom reserve, otherwise I may have to move to another base, but where? Who knows, it's a crap shoot as to where all the reduced/displaced pilots will go.
It's great news that there are vacancies and even more Captain spots available but a lot of people's lifestyle is about to change drastically and that gives them the right to complain, I wouldn't wish commuting on anyone but you lived it, so it's all good!
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Re: Winter Bid released today.

#34 Post by hithere » Mon Aug 15, 2016 3:48 pm

Just curious if you had bothered putting your name on the PML. If you, like myself, had put your name on the PML and got PFO'ed, then no regrets. But right about now, if you live in YYZ, AC is a much better place to be then Jazz
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Re: Winter Bid released today.

#35 Post by PositiveRate27 » Mon Aug 15, 2016 5:18 pm

hithere wrote:Just curious if you had bothered putting your name on the PML. If you, like myself, had put your name on the PML and got PFO'ed, then no regrets. But right about now, if you live in YYZ, AC is a much better place to be then Jazz
Im sure flow is a large component to the RJ reduction in YYZ. Im sure you'll see a large amount of people choosing to move to AC on PML 2.0 who didnt tick the box the first time.

Litterally the day before this latest bid came out I overheard a conversation about how the YVR RJ base "will never ever return." I was also told that you will never see the Q400's in YVR or YUL, yet here they are. Give it a few years and the landscape will change drastically again. This latest bid has been a godsend to lots of hard working folks on the west coast who can finally return to a non-commuting lifestyle. I feel deeply for the boys and girls in YYZ, but thems the breaks in this business unfortunately. It happens at Jazz. It happens at AC and WS. It happens everywhere. The positive to take out of this is there are over 100 vacancies system wide.
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Re: Winter Bid released today.

#36 Post by hithere » Mon Aug 15, 2016 6:02 pm

The FPML(PML 2.0) will not be attractive to anyone with any amount of seniority at Jazz. It will not have any FIP(Flow incentive pay/pay protection). It will just be a guaranteed interview at AC, in order of seniority and in proportion to the size of each AC express carrier. So just a continuation of the revolving door at the bottom of the seniority list at Jazz. all of those on the RJ in YYZ at Jazz have been through the PML process. Some didn't bother signing up, some differed with no intentions of ever joining mainline and a bunch were PFO'ed. Furthermore if they elect to bump down to the Q400, they will displace many junior pilots that did the PML interview and were PFO'ed. That is where the great injustice kicks in.
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Re: Winter Bid released today.

#37 Post by Canoehead » Mon Aug 15, 2016 6:04 pm

Rowdy wrote:
Canoehead wrote:

You are new at Jazz, aren't you?
Why don't you ask someone who is familiar with the history of the what's happened in the last 10 years at Jazz and AC.
Have you been displaced from a position or base yet?
I grew up in the industry and have watched first hand what has happened at AC, and the regionals long before they became jazz. The Yvr bases have consistently been very senior and have seen mostly reductions over the years. I watched my father get bumped out multiple times and even back into a sideways seat. Watched the closure of the Victoria base. The loss of the bae146. The battle for the CRJ and the eventual loss of it from the base.

I feel for those in Toronto that will now have to commute or move off the jet. It is unfortunate for sure. Much like the closure of many other bases over the years have affected many lives.
I'll refrain from further comment, other than to say there are many of us here that "grew up" in the industry (including myself) and have seen both exciting times and downright pathetic times at the connectors.

My reply was specifically regarding your thought that "everyone is complaining..... but there's still vacancies..." comments.

Please understand that at this point in my 11 out of 30ish years at Jazz, I don't really care about vacancies (you do know we had roughly 1500 pilots at one time right?), but I do care about maintaining a lifestyle and progression at the company that I've chosen to make a career at. It's bad enough we can't be part of any 'risk-flying', and are bound by a CPA that has eroded many facets of our operation (admittedly it HAD to change, but the pendulum has swung way too far to the other side), but to see entire rosters being moved back and forth across the country is a bit much to swallow. Great for YVR guys who get their jets back and a Q base, but now we see the hit in the east. What happens at the next bid? Or the next...

No, we can't really blame GGN or SKR. rxl I believe said it that this is all an AC decision.
(But having worked at GGN with many of the guys who are now running the operation makes my stomach turn incidentally).

But we shouldn't complain here in YYZ. Ok.
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Re: Winter Bid released today.

#38 Post by AvExpress » Tue Aug 16, 2016 3:49 am

What happens at the next bid? Or the next...
Jazz, like the other regionals are shifting away from career destinations. They don't want guys making 100k plus. They don't want you here for more than 5-10 yrs. Sky, GGN, WJE top pay scales are indicative of that. Future contracts will further erode, and continual shake ups designed to get senior guys/gals to move along will invariably happen. ACPA should take note IMO. Erosion and race to the bottom is very contagious in this industry thanks to a lack of pilot unity. AC execs I'm sure are planning their next move to capitalize on the value of such tactics.
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Re: Winter Bid released today.

#39 Post by PROC_HDG » Tue Aug 16, 2016 6:29 am

AvExpress wrote:
What happens at the next bid? Or the next...
Jazz, like the other regionals are shifting away from career destinations. They don't want guys making 100k plus. They don't want you here for more than 5-10 yrs. Sky, GGN, WJE top pay scales are indicative of that. Future contracts will further erode, and continual shake ups designed to get senior guys/gals to move along will invariably happen. ACPA should take note IMO. Erosion and race to the bottom is very contagious in this industry thanks to a lack of pilot unity. AC execs I'm sure are planning their next move to capitalize on the value of such tactics.
This is why having some unity is so important, and inflammatory comments like "scab" and "blame GGN/SR" don't get anybody anywhere. We are all in this together, and I can assure you that the majority of guys/gals at SR want to see a change just as much as our colleagues at JZA. We are in probably the best market for labour in the last 20 years right now, and are watching our counterparts in the US see big wage increases and work rules improvements. AC is as profitable as it has ever been. Now is the time to stop blaming each other.

PROC_HDG
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Re: Winter Bid released today.

#40 Post by rudder » Tue Aug 16, 2016 8:30 am

Want to know what SKY/GGN/Porter pilots can do to help the cause?

Sign the ALPA card that is being put in front of you. If you aren't part of the solution then you are just part of the problem.
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Re: Winter Bid released today.

#41 Post by rxl » Tue Aug 16, 2016 10:23 am

PROC_HDG wrote:
AvExpress wrote:
What happens at the next bid? Or the next...
Jazz, like the other regionals are shifting away from career destinations. They don't want guys making 100k plus. They don't want you here for more than 5-10 yrs. Sky, GGN, WJE top pay scales are indicative of that. Future contracts will further erode, and continual shake ups designed to get senior guys/gals to move along will invariably happen. ACPA should take note IMO. Erosion and race to the bottom is very contagious in this industry thanks to a lack of pilot unity. AC execs I'm sure are planning their next move to capitalize on the value of such tactics.
This is why having some unity is so important, and inflammatory comments like "scab" and "blame GGN/SR" don't get anybody anywhere. We are all in this together, and I can assure you that the majority of guys/gals at SR want to see a change just as much as our colleagues at JZA. We are in probably the best market for labour in the last 20 years right now, and are watching our counterparts in the US see big wage increases and work rules improvements. AC is as profitable as it has ever been. Now is the time to stop blaming each other.

PROC_HDG
THEN SIGN THE DAMN UNION CARD
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Re: Winter Bid released today.

#42 Post by rxl » Tue Aug 16, 2016 10:27 am

rudder wrote:Want to know what SKY/GGN/Porter pilots can do to help the cause?

Sign the ALPA card that is being put in front of you. If you aren't part of the solution then you are just part of the problem.
I would add the Westjet/Ecore group to that list.
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Re: Winter Bid released today.

#43 Post by A V I A T O » Tue Aug 16, 2016 10:34 am

why not CMA too while were at it.

such a post makes me paranoid of internet surveillance. All if you who said "union" and "(company)" in the same sentence should be too.

"Whoops. I said the loud part quiet and the quiet part loud."
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Re: Winter Bid released today.

#44 Post by rxl » Tue Aug 16, 2016 10:37 am

A V I A T O wrote:why not CMA too while were at it.

such a post makes me paranoid of internet surveillance. All if you who said "union" and "(company)" in the same sentence should be too.

"Whoops. I said the loud part quiet and the quiet part loud."
-Krusty the Clown
EVAS
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Re: Winter Bid released today.

#45 Post by Tanker299 » Tue Aug 16, 2016 12:12 pm

Is ALPA the answer? Wasaya and the Bear are in and they have seriously weak CBAs. Up front bonds at an ALPA represented airline.... How does this make it better. At the end of the day it's still up to the pilot group. Jazz pilots are making GGN Sky Porter and dub jay E places to look at. They are he ones who ratified the new contract. Did they not see this would be a result of offering those crap wages to the new folks only. Like a guy I know who has a CL65 rating could go to jazz get a right seat for like 35k be on reserve and go back to a prop or go to Ggn and be a DEC on a jet for 60k. If everything is just a stepping stone now what stone is better?
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Re: Winter Bid released today.

#46 Post by rudder » Tue Aug 16, 2016 12:56 pm

Tanker299 wrote:Is ALPA the answer? Wasaya and the Bear are in and they have seriously weak CBAs. Up front bonds at an ALPA represented airline.... How does this make it better. At the end of the day it's still up to the pilot group. Jazz pilots are making GGN Sky Porter and dub jay E places to look at. They are he ones who ratified the new contract. Did they not see this would be a result of offering those crap wages to the new folks only. Like a guy I know who has a CL65 rating could go to jazz get a right seat for like 35k be on reserve and go back to a prop or go to Ggn and be a DEC on a jet for 60k. If everything is just a stepping stone now what stone is better?
Step 1: investigate carriers with higher starting pay than Jazz

Step 2: accept a job offer from a carrier with higher starting pay than Jazz

Step 3: sign a union card ASAP at that carrier and support a negotiating agenda for improved pay, work rules, pension, and benefits.

Eventually Jazz wil have to offer better starting pay and eventually the other carriers will have to improve everything else.

A rising tide floats all boats.
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Last edited by rudder on Tue Aug 16, 2016 4:12 pm, edited 1 time in total.

frostedflakes
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Re: Winter Bid released today.

#47 Post by frostedflakes » Tue Aug 16, 2016 1:14 pm

I have to ask, if ALPA is the answer why is it that jazz was once a career place is now a stepping stone. It was under alpa that wages dropped to the lowest levels in the regional game at jazz and YOS lost. I'm all for better working conditions and more money but ALPA has actually given new jazz hires less over the years. Just my 2 cents
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Re: Winter Bid released today.

#48 Post by mbav8r » Tue Aug 16, 2016 1:52 pm

frostedflakes wrote:I have to ask, if ALPA is the answer why is it that jazz was once a career place is now a stepping stone. It was under alpa that wages dropped to the lowest levels in the regional game at jazz and YOS lost. I'm all for better working conditions and more money but ALPA has actually given new jazz hires less over the years. Just my 2 cents
Because Jazz pilots represented by ALPA were/are competing with pilots who are not.
I would also like to say, if Pilots stopped applying and accepting the new wages at Jazz, they would go up. It was asked at a road show presentation, if the company was worried they wouldn't be able to attract new pilots and the response was, we will know in about 6 months if we went to far! No kidding, I was there and heard it with my own ears. Reality is, they are still able to fill the ground schools, as is GGN and SR and Encore.
Imagine you're a Jazz pilot and you're presented a contract that preserves what you have and even improves it a little but new hires will be offered less. If we say no do you think for a second there would have been any new pilots at Jazz, I didn't! We would have died a slow painful death and in 3 1/2 years we would be a much smaller airline if not gone altogether.
Like I said, with all due respect to my colleagues, if they weren't willing to accept the new conditions the company would have had to do something and we all would have won but the idiots keep coming!
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Re: Winter Bid released today.

#49 Post by TGale » Tue Aug 16, 2016 2:00 pm

For the record, ALPA has not given or taken away anything from anybody. ALPA provides a legal, certified bargaining platform for the pilots at an airline to represent themselves with the support of significant resources far beyond what would be otherwise available. We support each other in times of need and share information, resources and expertise. The politics belong to the members but the jobs belong to the companies we work for.
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Re: Winter Bid released today.

#50 Post by Tanker299 » Tue Aug 16, 2016 2:03 pm

It's a very valid point. I just think personally that ALPA should have a few hard fast rules such as no upfront bonds or wages lower then the non Union shops out there and most definitely not to screw the guys coming in behind you!

I am for the unions in our industry but I want to look at the con's but they have dropped the ball a bit in the past few years. The AC regionals have died so many times but the routes they serve and the people they move still need to be moved. Nobody has 30 years at Jazz they all worked at another AC regional before it was all one.
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