PML Portal

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KenoraPilot
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Re: PML Portal

#26 Post by KenoraPilot » Sat Aug 25, 2018 1:27 pm

PositiveRate27 wrote:
Sat Aug 25, 2018 12:58 pm
AvifiskAlly wrote:
Sat Aug 25, 2018 7:35 am
Tap wrote:
Thu Aug 23, 2018 8:31 pm
Is it all bad news for B scale? Doesn’t sound like there’s a PML, low wages, and slower upgrades with the LOA?
I think AVCan readers need to remember most people on here that talk about the current PML not working are either not at Express or didn't make it through the process. One would have to assume they were never going to make it to AC regardless of the entry point. The voices missing from the site are all those Sky, Jazz and GGN drivers that are now at AC.

I can't comment on OTS vs PML numbers this year as I haven't looked in a while but from an interview perspective, the PML is the only path with a guarantee. Yes, the bad part of that is they end up having to interview people they know they are not going to hire and would not have interviewed if that person applied OTS. For sure WJ has been a great way into AC lately and I would be surprised if that's not the 2018 winner in numbers.
What is the guarantee you’re claiming? I’ve been at Jazz for 3 years, have had no interview, and have had no communication on when to expect one. The guaranteed interview seems to be something created by hopeful candidates, but never anything I’ve ever heard Jazz or Air Canada commit to.
I think he means its the guarantee to have the possibility maybe occasionally if the stars align in the proper zodiac that you might get an interview. But common when has anything ever been a "guarantee" in aviation? I have yet to see anything that comes close lol
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Re: PML Portal

#27 Post by PositiveRate27 » Sat Aug 25, 2018 2:19 pm

KenoraPilot wrote:
Sat Aug 25, 2018 1:27 pm
PositiveRate27 wrote:
Sat Aug 25, 2018 12:58 pm
AvifiskAlly wrote:
Sat Aug 25, 2018 7:35 am


I think AVCan readers need to remember most people on here that talk about the current PML not working are either not at Express or didn't make it through the process. One would have to assume they were never going to make it to AC regardless of the entry point. The voices missing from the site are all those Sky, Jazz and GGN drivers that are now at AC.

I can't comment on OTS vs PML numbers this year as I haven't looked in a while but from an interview perspective, the PML is the only path with a guarantee. Yes, the bad part of that is they end up having to interview people they know they are not going to hire and would not have interviewed if that person applied OTS. For sure WJ has been a great way into AC lately and I would be surprised if that's not the 2018 winner in numbers.
What is the guarantee you’re claiming? I’ve been at Jazz for 3 years, have had no interview, and have had no communication on when to expect one. The guaranteed interview seems to be something created by hopeful candidates, but never anything I’ve ever heard Jazz or Air Canada commit to.
I think he means its the guarantee to have the possibility maybe occasionally if the stars align in the proper zodiac that you might get an interview. But common when has anything ever been a "guarantee" in aviation? I have yet to see anything that comes close lol
That’s exactly my point. There is no guarantee of an interview if you go through express. Express may be the best route for people, or a dead end. I feel like the express route is still advertised as a “guarantee” of some kind, and I think it’s important that people understand it simply isn’t that when they apply here.

For me personally, Jazz is the best thing to have happened to me and I can’t think of a job I’d enjoy more. The express route is what you make of it, just be aware of what you are applying to.
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Re: PML Portal

#28 Post by KenoraPilot » Sun Aug 26, 2018 2:57 am

PositiveRate27 wrote:
Sat Aug 25, 2018 2:19 pm
KenoraPilot wrote:
Sat Aug 25, 2018 1:27 pm
PositiveRate27 wrote:
Sat Aug 25, 2018 12:58 pm


What is the guarantee you’re claiming? I’ve been at Jazz for 3 years, have had no interview, and have had no communication on when to expect one. The guaranteed interview seems to be something created by hopeful candidates, but never anything I’ve ever heard Jazz or Air Canada commit to.
I think he means its the guarantee to have the possibility maybe occasionally if the stars align in the proper zodiac that you might get an interview. But common when has anything ever been a "guarantee" in aviation? I have yet to see anything that comes close lol
That’s exactly my point. There is no guarantee of an interview if you go through express. Express may be the best route for people, or a dead end. I feel like the express route is still advertised as a “guarantee” of some kind, and I think it’s important that people understand it simply isn’t that when they apply here.

For me personally, Jazz is the best thing to have happened to me and I can’t think of a job I’d enjoy more. The express route is what you make of it, just be aware of what you are applying to.
I could not agree more!!!
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Re: PML Portal

#29 Post by citizenbanana » Tue Aug 28, 2018 11:08 am

I don't think anyone gets a guaranteed interview after PML 2..throw your name in the portal and see what happens. AC claims its still the best way to get in. In my opinion there is a very long line up of GGN SKY and B scale jazz pilots your going to have to fight with for a shot at AC through the portal.
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Re: PML Portal

#30 Post by Rowdy » Tue Aug 28, 2018 5:24 pm

citizenbanana wrote:
Tue Aug 28, 2018 11:08 am
I don't think anyone gets a guaranteed interview after PML 2..throw your name in the portal and see what happens. AC claims its still the best way to get in. In my opinion there is a very long line up of GGN SKY and B scale jazz pilots your going to have to fight with for a shot at AC through the portal.
Fight with? Unlikely. Lots of us B scalers that have zero interest or have turned AC down already (myself included).
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Re: PML Portal

#31 Post by KenoraPilot » Tue Aug 28, 2018 6:08 pm

Rowdy wrote:
Tue Aug 28, 2018 5:24 pm
citizenbanana wrote:
Tue Aug 28, 2018 11:08 am
I don't think anyone gets a guaranteed interview after PML 2..throw your name in the portal and see what happens. AC claims its still the best way to get in. In my opinion there is a very long line up of GGN SKY and B scale jazz pilots your going to have to fight with for a shot at AC through the portal.
Fight with? Unlikely. Lots of us B scalers that have zero interest or have turned AC down already (myself included).
Ditto, I'm not going to AC. Jazz for life lol Good luck to all that are going though!
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Re: PML Portal

#32 Post by Hangry » Wed Aug 29, 2018 1:57 am

KenoraPilot wrote:
Tue Aug 28, 2018 6:08 pm
Rowdy wrote:
Tue Aug 28, 2018 5:24 pm
citizenbanana wrote:
Tue Aug 28, 2018 11:08 am
I don't think anyone gets a guaranteed interview after PML 2..throw your name in the portal and see what happens. AC claims its still the best way to get in. In my opinion there is a very long line up of GGN SKY and B scale jazz pilots your going to have to fight with for a shot at AC through the portal.
Fight with? Unlikely. Lots of us B scalers that have zero interest or have turned AC down already (myself included).
Ditto, I'm not going to AC. Jazz for life lol Good luck to all that are going though!
Sure hope that works out for you. Probably better to work for the payer. Not the payee.
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Re: PML Portal

#33 Post by TheStig » Wed Aug 29, 2018 4:36 am

Rowdy wrote:
Tue Aug 28, 2018 5:24 pm

Fight with? Unlikely. Lots of us B scalers that have zero interest or have turned AC down already (myself included).
Just wondering why you'd turn down AC?
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Re: PML Portal

#34 Post by citizenbanana » Wed Aug 29, 2018 9:37 am

Seeing as this is about a PML portal and nothing to do with your decision to stay at Jazz Rowdy. There's no need to get all defensive about your decision to stay.

Don't kid yourself, there is still a long list of people in line for the mothership from express.
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Re: PML Portal

#35 Post by KenoraPilot » Wed Aug 29, 2018 11:11 am

TheStig wrote:
Wed Aug 29, 2018 4:36 am
Rowdy wrote:
Tue Aug 28, 2018 5:24 pm

Fight with? Unlikely. Lots of us B scalers that have zero interest or have turned AC down already (myself included).
Just wondering why you'd turn down AC?
For myself its all about life style
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Re: PML Portal

#36 Post by Rowdy » Wed Aug 29, 2018 9:24 pm

citizenbanana wrote:
Wed Aug 29, 2018 9:37 am
Seeing as this is about a PML portal and nothing to do with your decision to stay at Jazz Rowdy. There's no need to get all defensive about your decision to stay.

Don't kid yourself, there is still a long list of people in line for the mothership from express.
I'm not defensive at all. I just find it funny when someone says something ridiculous like there's a fight to get to AC. Maybe I'm just tired of the constant threads about the PML, a portal, all the whining about pfo's and other carriers pilots being hired instead of express ones etc etc.

If it's about the PML to AIR CANADA, perhaps it's better in the AC forum :mrgreen:
TheStig wrote:
Wed Aug 29, 2018 4:36 am
Rowdy wrote:
Tue Aug 28, 2018 5:24 pm

Fight with? Unlikely. Lots of us B scalers that have zero interest or have turned AC down already (myself included).
Just wondering why you'd turn down AC?
Lifestyle, progression and the pay cut. Just like KP. Its all about lifestyle. Even if hired tomorrow, I'd never be a wide body skip in YVR and thus never make the big bucks that would make ruining my next few years worth it. My newborn son is way more interesting than an embraer or 320.
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Re: PML Portal

#37 Post by TheStig » Thu Aug 30, 2018 8:52 am

Rowdy wrote:
Wed Aug 29, 2018 9:24 pm

Lifestyle, progression and the pay cut. Just like KP. Its all about lifestyle. Even if hired tomorrow, I'd never be a wide body skip in YVR and thus never make the big bucks that would make ruining my next few years worth it. My newborn son is way more interesting than an embraer or 320.
After talking with many former Jazz pilots who are at AC, that's a fairly unique opinion, I've met one who wished they'd stayed. Given your junior position at Jazz the quality of life wouldn't be that different then that of junior narrow body First Officer at AC. Lifestyle focused pilots in YVR at AC tend to bid RP positions that usually result in 9-12 days worked per month.

Progression at AC has been much quicker at AC than Jazz since the last of the PML pilot joined, a pilot hired last September would be around 55% in the right seat of the 320 in YVR, 40% as a 737 FO, 65% as a 787 RP although none of those positions would pay over $100,000 year for at least 4 years. Junior Captains positions on the A320 in YVR were just awarded to pilots hired in 2013. Progression in YUL and YYZ has been faster. Lots of options and everyone decides their own balance between lifestyle and pay, in a way similar to what pilots who don't come to AC choose to do. I'd like my contribution to this forum to be a source of insight into what the job actually entails and what is rumour for those pilots.

Of coarse, everyone is entitled to make their own choice and I hope that you continue to be content with yours, having a young family is a huge financial burden on AC's 4 years of low pay, but I'd hate for misinformation about life at AC be ruinous to be a deterrent for pilots at Jazz to following through with the portal application.
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Re: PML Portal

#38 Post by daedalusx » Thu Aug 30, 2018 9:39 am

If you're a Bscaler and under 35, your be absolutely batshit insane to turn down mainline AC, the only exception being that if you were to live and work in YYC. Please think long term 20+ years ahead...

You're locked in a disgusting contract until 2025 and you have no idea how the fleet will look like after that. Jazz leases almost everything... Stroke of a pen post 2025, a lot could be reallocated to another skyregional type company. What if hard times/recession comes around during renegotiation ? More cuts on a already disgraceful payscale? AC will always be there for better or worst... They'll get their govt bailouts if things get tough and we already witness a decrease of regional flying and expansion of mainline.

Yeah the money sucks year 1-2 on AC no doubt but it's still 40% more take home than a year 1-2 Jazz FO. By year 5 at AC you'll make way more than you'd ever make left seat at Jazz.
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Re: PML Portal

#39 Post by av8ts » Thu Aug 30, 2018 9:54 am

daedalusx wrote:
Thu Aug 30, 2018 9:39 am
If you're a Bscaler and under 35, your be absolutely batshit insane to turn down mainline AC, the only exception being that if you were to live and work in YYC. Please think long term 20+ years ahead...

You're locked in a disgusting contract until 2025 and you have no idea how the fleet will look like after that. Jazz leases almost everything... Stroke of a pen post 2025, a lot could be reallocated to another skyregional type company. What if hard times/recession comes around during renegotiation ? More cuts on a already disgraceful payscale? AC will always be there for better or worst... They'll get their govt bailouts if things get tough and we already witness a decrease of regional flying and expansion of mainline.

Yeah the money sucks year 1-2 on AC no doubt but it's still 40% more take home than a year 1-2 Jazz FO. By year 5 at AC you'll make way more than you'd ever make left seat at Jazz.
I’m close to retirement at Jazz so I didn’t go to AC. I agree the the above post although I’d go as far as to say anyone under 45 is crazy not to go
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Re: PML Portal

#40 Post by Inverted2 » Thu Aug 30, 2018 10:20 am

av8ts wrote:
Thu Aug 30, 2018 9:54 am
daedalusx wrote:
Thu Aug 30, 2018 9:39 am
If you're a Bscaler and under 35, your be absolutely batshit insane to turn down mainline AC, the only exception being that if you were to live and work in YYC. Please think long term 20+ years ahead...

You're locked in a disgusting contract until 2025 and you have no idea how the fleet will look like after that. Jazz leases almost everything... Stroke of a pen post 2025, a lot could be reallocated to another skyregional type company. What if hard times/recession comes around during renegotiation ? More cuts on a already disgraceful payscale? AC will always be there for better or worst... They'll get their govt bailouts if things get tough and we already witness a decrease of regional flying and expansion of mainline.

Yeah the money sucks year 1-2 on AC no doubt but it's still 40% more take home than a year 1-2 Jazz FO. By year 5 at AC you'll make way more than you'd ever make left seat at Jazz.
I’m close to retirement at Jazz so I didn’t go to AC. I agree the the above post although I’d go as far as to say anyone under 45 is crazy not to go
I wouldn’t go quite that far. I’m slightly under 45 but do not desire to lose my vacation, DB pension, left seat, do any long haul flying or back on reserve. The pay cut would be over 100,000 for the first 2 years alone.
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Re: PML Portal

#41 Post by KenoraPilot » Thu Aug 30, 2018 11:20 am

For myself I live and luckily work in Alberta for Jazz which is uniquely situated as AC doesn't have anything in AB. The thought of commuting for the rest of my life and 4 years of crap starting pay at AC when I just had my first child?!?! Currently I don't make a ton as a Captain but its very livable in Alberta and my schedule is pretty good, lots of overnights at home and basically get the schedule I want. Money isn't the be all and end all of it for me at least. I'd rather have time at home and a schedule I can live with then having to commute to YYZ or YVR for the rest of my career for a bigger plane and more money. At the end of the day an overnight is an overnight and with a new family I am far from wanting to do International long haul stuff (RP etc). I've been flying for 14 years and Jazz is pretty great place to settle in my opinion. There is lots of work to be done on the contract but I am in it for the long haul and willing to put in the effort to fix it for myself and all the other Jazz pilots ahead and behind me. (And I am under 35)

If you live and work in YYZ you'd be pretty silly not to go to AC as its probably the best YYZ based job in Canada and you're under 35! lol.

Just my two cents :)
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Re: PML Portal

#42 Post by Lightchop » Thu Aug 30, 2018 6:05 pm

Anyone on here get a call lately?

I've been told by my friends at AC who are involved in training, that they are preparing for a large influx of new hires this fall.
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Re: PML Portal

#43 Post by daedalusx » Thu Aug 30, 2018 6:27 pm

Large influx doesn't mean it'll come from Jazz. When you have a 705 crew that cost you as low as 115$ per block hour why would you facilitate them going to big red ? Way more economical to poach from OTS. When I see it, I'll believe it but I remain highly sceptical. AC doesn't even promise you an interview anymore, the whole 80% express is also gone and both companies are completely silent and they've even stopped promoting the PML at the recent interviews. We all took a gamble and we all hope it'll pay eventually but I wouldn't stick around another 1-2 years only to find out it's still 75% WJ/Encore hires per GS.
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Re: PML Portal

#44 Post by bearitus » Thu Aug 30, 2018 6:52 pm

I wonder how many Jazz pilots are leaving to other airlines, corporate and 703/704. I myself am a bit disheartened by the slow upgrades and lack of movement to AC. I am enjoying my time at Jazz but when cost of living and feeding your family is double your salary you start asking questions...
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Re: PML Portal

#45 Post by Lightchop » Thu Aug 30, 2018 11:04 pm

bearitus wrote:
Thu Aug 30, 2018 6:52 pm
I wonder how many Jazz pilots are leaving to other airlines, corporate and 703/704. I myself am a bit disheartened by the slow upgrades and lack of movement to AC. I am enjoying my time at Jazz but when cost of living and feeding your family is double your salary you start asking questions...


This.

There are a lot of people leaving and I know a few who have been exploring other options.

There's going to come a time where AC is going to have to realize they're losing people either way. May as well bring them on as they are familiar with the operation and have already been invested in with the training at Jazz. The carrot can only go so far and a lot of people are not happy to see so many WJ hires as of late while more or less completely ignoring Jazz.
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Re: PML Portal

#46 Post by mmm..bacon » Fri Aug 31, 2018 8:11 am

Tough spot for AC - keep the troops happy, and the training costs lower at Jazz, or deal WJ a large kick in the 'nads - just like Wj did to Jazz ~ 2005/6/7...
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Re: PML Portal

#47 Post by DH8Pilot » Sun Sep 02, 2018 2:52 am

I'm remaining cautiously optimistic that things will pick up in the fall. The reduced hiring from Jazz seen recently might be entirely a function of the dramatic numbers hired from 2015-2017, and the limited crews Jazz had for the summer of 2017. However, I think the fall will be quite decisive in respect to what AC does.

While the trend to hire OTS is understandable from a financial standpoint, Express hiring is necessary to maintain a continued flow of applicants to AC's associated regionals. Otherwise, who wouldn't go to Encore, with guaranteed flow to Westjet and a higher probability of getting on with AC?

For me, I'm somewhat limited on being able to leave Jazz until early next year. However, if after that point it is clear AC is still barely hiring from us, I will be actively looking to leave, and I know I'm not alone.

Interestingly enough, Jazz might quickly become the new PML to FlyDubai, especially if people get stuck here.
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Re: PML Portal

#48 Post by Rowdy » Sun Sep 02, 2018 9:07 am

DH8Pilot wrote:
Sun Sep 02, 2018 2:52 am
I'm remaining cautiously optimistic that things will pick up in the fall. The reduced hiring from Jazz seen recently might be entirely a function of the dramatic numbers hired from 2015-2017, and the limited crews Jazz had for the summer of 2017. However, I think the fall will be quite decisive in respect to what AC does.

While the trend to hire OTS is understandable from a financial standpoint, Express hiring is necessary to maintain a continued flow of applicants to AC's associated regionals. Otherwise, who wouldn't go to Encore, with guaranteed flow to Westjet and a higher probability of getting on with AC?

For me, I'm somewhat limited on being able to leave Jazz until early next year. However, if after that point it is clear AC is still barely hiring from us, I will be actively looking to leave, and I know I'm not alone.

Interestingly enough, Jazz might quickly become the new PML to FlyDubai, especially if people get stuck here.
FlyDubai? Unlikely.. AT and SW? most definitely. I think we're still waiting for it to sink into the brains of management at AC and Jazz that the current climate will not support their plans for low wages everywhere. This is especially noticeable when you bring it up to them or your union reps and they start off with 'well 25 years ago..." or 'in '96....'

Those days are over.
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Re: PML Portal

#49 Post by Inverted2 » Sun Sep 02, 2018 12:30 pm

In ‘96 the wages were about the same and you could get gas for 59 cents and your hydro bill was $250/yr instead of $250/month.
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Re: PML Portal

#50 Post by KenoraPilot » Sun Sep 02, 2018 3:43 pm

One shocking thing I heard the other day was someone at Jazz not realizing there was a divide between the new and old pay scale pilots. That kinda blew me away a little bit that some people don't recognize there is a divide amongst the pilots.......maybe that was me being naive. :(
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