Things are brewing in the kitchen.

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TheSocialChameleon
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Re: Things are brewing in the kitchen.

Post by TheSocialChameleon » Thu Jan 17, 2019 10:57 am

What will happen to those are scheduled for CA upgrades at Jazz. Will they get CA protection pay in the event they get bumped.
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Re: Things are brewing in the kitchen.

Post by TheSocialChameleon » Thu Jan 17, 2019 11:02 am

You should never take the FIRST deal given to you. Basic negotiations. Go back and ask for more and get more. Our union guys are afraid to stand up to AC.

Jazz paid ALPA dues this whole time. The MEC at Jazz cannot represent GGN best interest. This is not a merger. We are only offering them employment.
BOTL or no deal! It’s legal.
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Re: Things are brewing in the kitchen.

Post by HansDietrich » Thu Jan 17, 2019 11:04 am

TheSocialChameleon wrote:
Thu Jan 17, 2019 11:02 am
You should never take the FIRST deal given to you. Basic negotiations. Go back and ask for more and get more. Our union guys are afraid to stand up to AC.

Jazz paid ALPA dues this whole time. The MEC at Jazz cannot represent GGN best interest. This is not a merger. We are only offering them employment.
BOTL or no deal! It’s legal.
And I hope you guys do that. It'd be idiotic for any of you to allow a competitor take your spots. A lot of you made sacrifices to be at Jazz, to have someone else come and skip line.
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Re: Things are brewing in the kitchen.

Post by Lightchop » Thu Jan 17, 2019 11:30 am

TheSocialChameleon wrote:
Thu Jan 17, 2019 11:02 am
You should never take the FIRST deal given to you. Basic negotiations. Go back and ask for more and get more. Our union guys are afraid to stand up to AC.

Jazz paid ALPA dues this whole time. The MEC at Jazz cannot represent GGN best interest. This is not a merger. We are only offering them employment.
BOTL or no deal! It’s legal.
Do you think this is the first deal? That's what the negotiations committee is for.

This is not a situation where we own the flying and have open bargaining due to a contract ending. This is mid contract. I fully believe if we vote this down, there will be no second deal.
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Re: Things are brewing in the kitchen.

Post by HansDietrich » Thu Jan 17, 2019 11:32 am

Lightchop wrote:
Thu Jan 17, 2019 11:30 am
TheSocialChameleon wrote:
Thu Jan 17, 2019 11:02 am
You should never take the FIRST deal given to you. Basic negotiations. Go back and ask for more and get more. Our union guys are afraid to stand up to AC.

Jazz paid ALPA dues this whole time. The MEC at Jazz cannot represent GGN best interest. This is not a merger. We are only offering them employment.
BOTL or no deal! It’s legal.
Do you think this is the first deal? That's what the negotiations committee is for.

This is not a situation where we own the flying and have open bargaining due to a contract ending. This is mid contract. I fully believe if we vote this down, there will be no second deal.
Isn't that what they always tell you? "This is the only way you'll survive!" Come on...
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Re: Things are brewing in the kitchen.

Post by TheSocialChameleon » Thu Jan 17, 2019 11:40 am

Lightchop wrote:
Thu Jan 17, 2019 11:30 am
TheSocialChameleon wrote:
Thu Jan 17, 2019 11:02 am
You should never take the FIRST deal given to you. Basic negotiations. Go back and ask for more and get more. Our union guys are afraid to stand up to AC.

Jazz paid ALPA dues this whole time. The MEC at Jazz cannot represent GGN best interest. This is not a merger. We are only offering them employment.
BOTL or no deal! It’s legal.
Do you think this is the first deal? That's what the negotiations committee is for.

This is not a situation where we own the flying and have open bargaining due to a contract ending. This is mid contract. I fully believe if we vote this down, there will be no second deal.
It is the First deal as the rest of the pilot group hasn't nt voted no. If you vote no they have to come back with a second deal. Air Canada needs the feeder routes to connect to the larger aircraft. It's not like they're going to go out and buy regional props or jets. Also they just bought 97 million worth of shares in CHR. They need us more now. It's a pilots market now. We must make the best of it. Don't be afraid like the guys did last time by buying into the AC threats of taking away our flying.
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Last edited by TheSocialChameleon on Thu Jan 17, 2019 11:45 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Things are brewing in the kitchen.

Post by TheSocialChameleon » Thu Jan 17, 2019 11:40 am

Don't be gullible and bullied.
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Re: Things are brewing in the kitchen.

Post by TheSocialChameleon » Thu Jan 17, 2019 12:11 pm

GGN guys got pfo'd at Jazz. We worked hard at our interviews and got in. BOTL is a fair deal. If you're not happy to have a job after you've lost yours then go to swg or air Tran.
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Re: Things are brewing in the kitchen.

Post by skypirate88 » Thu Jan 17, 2019 12:16 pm

TheSocialChameleon wrote:
Thu Jan 17, 2019 11:40 am
Lightchop wrote:
Thu Jan 17, 2019 11:30 am
TheSocialChameleon wrote:
Thu Jan 17, 2019 11:02 am
You should never take the FIRST deal given to you. Basic negotiations. Go back and ask for more and get more. Our union guys are afraid to stand up to AC.

Jazz paid ALPA dues this whole time. The MEC at Jazz cannot represent GGN best interest. This is not a merger. We are only offering them employment.
BOTL or no deal! It’s legal.
Do you think this is the first deal? That's what the negotiations committee is for.

This is not a situation where we own the flying and have open bargaining due to a contract ending. This is mid contract. I fully believe if we vote this down, there will be no second deal.
It is the First deal as the rest of the pilot group hasn't nt voted no. If you vote no they have to come back with a second deal. Air Canada needs the feeder routes to connect to the larger aircraft. It's not like they're going to go out and buy regional props or jets. Also they just bought 97 million worth of shares in CHR. They need us more now. It's a pilots market now. We must make the best of it. Don't be afraid like the guys did last time by buying into the AC threats of taking away our flying.
They didn't buy anything yet. That equity investment was contingent on CA ratification.
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Re: Things are brewing in the kitchen.

Post by TheSocialChameleon » Thu Jan 17, 2019 12:29 pm

skypirate88 wrote:
Thu Jan 17, 2019 12:16 pm
TheSocialChameleon wrote:
Thu Jan 17, 2019 11:40 am
Lightchop wrote:
Thu Jan 17, 2019 11:30 am


Do you think this is the first deal? That's what the negotiations committee is for.

This is not a situation where we own the flying and have open bargaining due to a contract ending. This is mid contract. I fully believe if we vote this down, there will be no second deal.
It is the First deal as the rest of the pilot group hasn't nt voted no. If you vote no they have to come back with a second deal. Air Canada needs the feeder routes to connect to the larger aircraft. It's not like they're going to go out and buy regional props or jets. Also they just bought 97 million worth of shares in CHR. They need us more now. It's a pilots market now. We must make the best of it. Don't be afraid like the guys did last time by buying into the AC threats of taking away our flying.
They didn't buy anything yet. That equity investment was contingent on CA ratification.
You're right. I stand corrected.
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Re: Things are brewing in the kitchen.

Post by truedude » Thu Jan 17, 2019 1:55 pm

TheSocialChameleon wrote:
Thu Jan 17, 2019 12:29 pm
skypirate88 wrote:
Thu Jan 17, 2019 12:16 pm
TheSocialChameleon wrote:
Thu Jan 17, 2019 11:40 am


It is the First deal as the rest of the pilot group hasn't nt voted no. If you vote no they have to come back with a second deal. Air Canada needs the feeder routes to connect to the larger aircraft. It's not like they're going to go out and buy regional props or jets. Also they just bought 97 million worth of shares in CHR. They need us more now. It's a pilots market now. We must make the best of it. Don't be afraid like the guys did last time by buying into the AC threats of taking away our flying.
They didn't buy anything yet. That equity investment was contingent on CA ratification.
You're right. I stand corrected.
Who cares if they don't come back with a second deal. Let them put the 900's with GGN (even though they will make a mess of it) or Sky Regional. Both companies are having issues staffing, which will not get better with the 400 - 600 pilots Air Canada needs to hire this year. We continue to move along with our current contract and our current flying. Also, remember the amount of money Chorus aviation stands to lose, including the managers personally; that is a huge incentive for them to come back to the table. How are they going to explain a failure to secure nearly 100 million in equity because they would rather screw the pilots one last time. Honestly, if voting no deprives Joe and his cronies of any sort of bonus money, I will consider that a win!
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Re: Things are brewing in the kitchen.

Post by Lightchop » Thu Jan 17, 2019 2:41 pm

.
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Last edited by Lightchop on Fri Jan 18, 2019 10:45 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Things are brewing in the kitchen.

Post by Lightchop » Thu Jan 17, 2019 2:41 pm

skypirate88 wrote:
Thu Jan 17, 2019 12:16 pm
TheSocialChameleon wrote:
Thu Jan 17, 2019 11:40 am
Lightchop wrote:
Thu Jan 17, 2019 11:30 am


Do you think this is the first deal? That's what the negotiations committee is for.

This is not a situation where we own the flying and have open bargaining due to a contract ending. This is mid contract. I fully believe if we vote this down, there will be no second deal.
It is the First deal as the rest of the pilot group hasn't nt voted no. If you vote no they have to come back with a second deal. Air Canada needs the feeder routes to connect to the larger aircraft. It's not like they're going to go out and buy regional props or jets. Also they just bought 97 million worth of shares in CHR. They need us more now. It's a pilots market now. We must make the best of it. Don't be afraid like the guys did last time by buying into the AC threats of taking away our flying.
They didn't buy anything yet. That equity investment was contingent on CA ratification.
Correct.
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Last edited by Lightchop on Fri Jan 18, 2019 10:45 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Things are brewing in the kitchen.

Post by flyer 1492 » Thu Jan 17, 2019 3:16 pm

Piece of CRAP TA.
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Re: Things are brewing in the kitchen.

Post by truedude » Thu Jan 17, 2019 3:20 pm

Lightchop wrote:
Thu Jan 17, 2019 2:41 pm
TheSocialChameleon wrote:
Thu Jan 17, 2019 11:40 am
Lightchop wrote:
Thu Jan 17, 2019 11:30 am


Do you think this is the first deal? That's what the negotiations committee is for.

This is not a situation where we own the flying and have open bargaining due to a contract ending. This is mid contract. I fully believe if we vote this down, there will be no second deal.
It is the First deal as the rest of the pilot group hasn't nt voted no. If you vote no they have to come back with a second deal. Air Canada needs the feeder routes to connect to the larger aircraft. It's not like they're going to go out and buy regional props or jets. Also they just bought 97 million worth of shares in CHR. They need us more now. It's a pilots market now. We must make the best of it. Don't be afraid like the guys did last time by buying into the AC threats of taking away our flying.

There is no second deal. Second deal is GGN gets the RJs, GGN gets the flow.

AC does not like being embarrassed do you really think they would come back to us with a second deal? I don't. Jazz will be done in 2025.
Fine by me! I will not choke down a shitty deal while others get rich by being bullied or scared into signing. Give the flying to GGN, they are a joke. As far as flow, Air Canada will continue to hire pilots from everywhere. And as far as 2025 goes, who know what that will look like, or who will be running Air Canada. IF this is a take it or leave it deal, I vote for leave it. If one person from the union tries to scare me into voting yes with that sort of rhetoric, I will vote no just on the merit that I will not be scared into taking anything. And in the end we are negotiating with Chorus, if Chorus believes that this would be the end of us in 2025, it would also be the near death of Chorus. If it is such a great deal, then let Joe pony up the cash. But I will not be intimidated into voting Yes.

So Lightchop, I don't know if you are in the union or not, or what your affiliation is in all of this, but this is not how you sell a contract. In fact, with your rhetoric, I think it only fair that you reveal if you are in the union, how long you have been at Jazz, and what your long term intentions are.
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Re: Things are brewing in the kitchen.

Post by bearitus » Thu Jan 17, 2019 3:22 pm

As a fairly new YYZ FO at Jazz I am scared I will have to go back on reserve or switch bases altogether. Hope it doesn't come to that.
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Re: Things are brewing in the kitchen.

Post by yhz41 » Thu Jan 17, 2019 3:28 pm

bearitus wrote:
Thu Jan 17, 2019 3:22 pm
As a fairly new YYZ FO at Jazz I am scared I will have to go back on reserve or switch bases altogether. Hope it doesn't come to that.
Or what if things go sideways and everyone below those Georgian people end up getting laid off in 5 years time. Where if they didnt come in with DOH, you wouldn't be getting laid off. As has previously been stated, this is not a merger. Theres no reason for them to come in with seniority.
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Re: Things are brewing in the kitchen.

Post by 47north » Thu Jan 17, 2019 3:41 pm

Piece of CRAP TA.
I disagree.

- Pay issues look to be addressed with Dash 8 cap lifted, a blended pay scale and better credit for captain pay
- Improvement to deadhead credit
- 60% of AC pilots to come from Jazz- not insignificant with the hiring that is coming there with something like 1200 pilots required at AC in the next couple of years.
- 90% of those that apply will be accepted. In seniority so no BS about picking and choosing. Closest thing to a guaranteed to a job at AC for those interested. Anyone off the street would take those odds all day long.
- Fleet guarantees and job security for those that want to stay, which we don't have past 2025 now. No small thing in this business. Don't underestimate the affect the C series and the AC RRA language can have on our flying.
- Georgian pilots not an issue. Small group and looks like many will not end up here anyway. Pay protection and base protection to mitigate the issue.

Basically protects those who want to stay and provides a guaranteed path to those that want to go to AC.

We would be stupid to vote this down.
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Re: Things are brewing in the kitchen.

Post by Lightchop » Thu Jan 17, 2019 3:55 pm

truedude wrote:
Thu Jan 17, 2019 3:20 pm
Lightchop wrote:
Thu Jan 17, 2019 2:41 pm
TheSocialChameleon wrote:
Thu Jan 17, 2019 11:40 am


It is the First deal as the rest of the pilot group hasn't nt voted no. If you vote no they have to come back with a second deal. Air Canada needs the feeder routes to connect to the larger aircraft. It's not like they're going to go out and buy regional props or jets. Also they just bought 97 million worth of shares in CHR. They need us more now. It's a pilots market now. We must make the best of it. Don't be afraid like the guys did last time by buying into the AC threats of taking away our flying.

There is no second deal. Second deal is GGN gets the RJs, GGN gets the flow.

AC does not like being embarrassed do you really think they would come back to us with a second deal? I don't. Jazz will be done in 2025.
Fine by me! I will not choke down a shitty deal while others get rich by being bullied or scared into signing. Give the flying to GGN, they are a joke. As far as flow, Air Canada will continue to hire pilots from everywhere. And as far as 2025 goes, who know what that will look like, or who will be running Air Canada. IF this is a take it or leave it deal, I vote for leave it. If one person from the union tries to scare me into voting yes with that sort of rhetoric, I will vote no just on the merit that I will not be scared into taking anything. And in the end we are negotiating with Chorus, if Chorus believes that this would be the end of us in 2025, it would also be the near death of Chorus. If it is such a great deal, then let Joe pony up the cash. But I will not be intimidated into voting Yes.

So Lightchop, I don't know if you are in the union or not, or what your affiliation is in all of this, but this is not how you sell a contract. In fact, with your rhetoric, I think it only fair that you reveal if you are in the union, how long you have been at Jazz, and what your long term intentions are.
Not fine by me. Gives me a legit shot at going to AC and if I get turned down I have job security for 17 years and guaranteed %2 across all monetary value in the contract until then. With the ability to negotiate a raise in 2029 on both pay and DC pension. Sounds good to me.
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Re: Things are brewing in the kitchen.

Post by truedude » Thu Jan 17, 2019 4:11 pm

Lightchop wrote:
Thu Jan 17, 2019 3:55 pm
truedude wrote:
Thu Jan 17, 2019 3:20 pm
Lightchop wrote:
Thu Jan 17, 2019 2:41 pm



There is no second deal. Second deal is GGN gets the RJs, GGN gets the flow.

AC does not like being embarrassed do you really think they would come back to us with a second deal? I don't. Jazz will be done in 2025.
Fine by me! I will not choke down a shitty deal while others get rich by being bullied or scared into signing. Give the flying to GGN, they are a joke. As far as flow, Air Canada will continue to hire pilots from everywhere. And as far as 2025 goes, who know what that will look like, or who will be running Air Canada. IF this is a take it or leave it deal, I vote for leave it. If one person from the union tries to scare me into voting yes with that sort of rhetoric, I will vote no just on the merit that I will not be scared into taking anything. And in the end we are negotiating with Chorus, if Chorus believes that this would be the end of us in 2025, it would also be the near death of Chorus. If it is such a great deal, then let Joe pony up the cash. But I will not be intimidated into voting Yes.

So Lightchop, I don't know if you are in the union or not, or what your affiliation is in all of this, but this is not how you sell a contract. In fact, with your rhetoric, I think it only fair that you reveal if you are in the union, how long you have been at Jazz, and what your long term intentions are.
Not fine by me. Gives me a legit shot at going to AC and if I get turned down I have job security for 17 years and guaranteed %2 across all monetary value in the contract until then. With the ability to negotiate a raise in 2029 on both pay and DC pension. Sounds good to me.
And this is where they are going to try and scare you. There are not enough pilots available to fill demand without hiring from Jazz. You want to work at Air Canada, you will have that chance whether you vote yes or no on this contract. GGN is done. You don't indicate you are going to make a 100 million capital investment on a whim. If they go to GGN, it will be a disaster. Vote however you feel comfortable voting. Just don't vote yes because you are scared, vote yes because you believe to be a good deal. A good deal does not require you to be frightened to agree with it.
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Re: Things are brewing in the kitchen.

Post by Outlaw58 » Thu Jan 17, 2019 4:12 pm

Ya know I wish some of you guys were on the negotiating committee..,

I guess I'd get to see AC and Jazz management all curled up, crying in the fetal position because they just could not stand up to the almighty pilot group and had to give captain pay to everyone, bring back the DB pension, pay overtime for any flying done on evenings and weekends, 100% flow through to AC with full DOH seniority and pay protection,..... wow.....wouldn't that be nice.

If only we had these supah stars on the negotiating committee....

sigh :(

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Re: Things are brewing in the kitchen.

Post by TheSocialChameleon » Thu Jan 17, 2019 4:18 pm

What the hell is a blended payscale anyways. Is it an average of scale A and scale B. In which case you won't be making as much as you did pre-2015 scale but not as low as B scale?

No deal...

How about not making our labour cheaper again. Not watering down the A scale too.

It should not be a blended payscale. It should be a 'finally feed your family because a pilot is not an entry level job' scale.
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Re: Things are brewing in the kitchen.

Post by truedude » Thu Jan 17, 2019 4:34 pm

TheSocialChameleon wrote:
Thu Jan 17, 2019 4:18 pm
What the hell is a blended payscale anyways. Is it an average of scale A and scale B. In which case you won't be making as much as you did pre-2015 scale but not as low as B scale?

No deal...

How about not making our labour cheaper again. Not watering down the A scale too.

It should not be a blended payscale. It should be a 'finally feed your family because a pilot is not an entry level job' scale.
The blended pay scale is that they merge at some point in the future. So lets take a number seemingly at random and call it 5 or 6 years, you will be where the current legacy table is. Think of it this way, there is no one left that is below x number of years on the legacy scale, so take the new pay scale up to 5 years, tack it onto the bottom of the legacy payscale.. voila, blended. And since they know most people have no intentions of staying for 5 or 6 years, the cost is minimal.
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Re: Things are brewing in the kitchen.

Post by C-GGGQ » Thu Jan 17, 2019 4:58 pm

I thought it already did catch up around that mark?
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Re: Things are brewing in the kitchen.

Post by av8ts » Thu Jan 17, 2019 5:28 pm

47north wrote:
Thu Jan 17, 2019 3:41 pm
Piece of CRAP TA.
I disagree.


- 60% of AC pilots to come from Jazz- not insignificant with the hiring that is coming there with something like 1200 pilots required at AC in the next couple of years.
- 90% of those that apply will be accepted. In seniority so no BS about picking and choosing. Closest thing to a guaranteed to a job at AC for those interested. Anyone off the street would take those odds all day long
It doesn’t say 90% of those that apply will be accepted. It says “Air Canada must hire minimum of 90% of eligible candidates who apply”
What is the definition of an “eligible” candidate and will that definition be included in the CA?
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