Classic Dash replacement??

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dhc#
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Re: Classic Dash replacement??

Post by dhc# »

Regarding the Jazz fleet, how many aircraft are owned vs. leased ?

Is there a breakdown someplace online to reference ?
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J31
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Re: Classic Dash replacement??

Post by J31 »

dhc# wrote: Sat May 02, 2020 6:52 am Regarding the Jazz fleet, how many aircraft are owned vs. leased ?

Is there a breakdown someplace online to reference ?
No Owned vs leased but https://www.airfleets.net/flottecie/Jazz%20Air.htm
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KenoraPilot
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Re: Classic Dash replacement??

Post by KenoraPilot »

J31 wrote: Fri Jun 12, 2020 10:25 pm
dhc# wrote: Sat May 02, 2020 6:52 am Regarding the Jazz fleet, how many aircraft are owned vs. leased ?

Is there a breakdown someplace online to reference ?
No Owned vs leased but https://www.airfleets.net/flottecie/Jazz%20Air.htm

Not very accurate as we currently have ZERO DH8-100 still operating for Jazz.
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rudder
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Re: Classic Dash replacement??

Post by rudder »

Detailed information on the owned/leased status of CHR aircraft used to be available on the chorusaviation.com website under the Executive Management Presentations banner. They have all since been removed.

Not sure if any such info can be derived from the quarterly or annual reports.
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dhc#
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Re: Classic Dash replacement??

Post by dhc# »

From the Dash 8 World News Blog, in the Jan 19th/15th updates, its noted that Jazz is returning (I believe) the leased ex- SR Q400s to Nordic Aviation Capital.

https://dash8world.com/news-blog
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teacher
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Re: Classic Dash replacement??

Post by teacher »

Not sure if someone (or I) posted this already a while ago but De-Havilland has explored a shrunken DHC400. Same engines just de-rated (lower operating costs) so lower fuel burn and reduced engine wear but commonality with parts and type rating.

https://skiesmag.com/news/de-havilland- ... ash-8-400/
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igorcanuck
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Re: Classic Dash replacement??

Post by igorcanuck »

teacher wrote: Wed Jan 20, 2021 12:06 pm Not sure if someone (or I) posted this already a while ago but De-Havilland has explored a shrunken DHC400. Same engines just de-rated (lower operating costs) so lower fuel burn and reduced engine wear but commonality with parts and type rating.

https://skiesmag.com/news/de-havilland- ... ash-8-400/
https://simpleflying.com/de-havilland- ... ended/amp/
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airway
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Re: Classic Dash replacement??

Post by airway »

igorcanuck wrote: Wed Jan 20, 2021 1:12 pm
teacher wrote: Wed Jan 20, 2021 12:06 pm Not sure if someone (or I) posted this already a while ago but De-Havilland has explored a shrunken DHC400. Same engines just de-rated (lower operating costs) so lower fuel burn and reduced engine wear but commonality with parts and type rating.

https://skiesmag.com/news/de-havilland- ... ash-8-400/
https://simpleflying.com/de-havilland- ... ended/amp/
Wow, what a difference four weeks makes :shock:
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airway
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Re: Classic Dash replacement??

Post by airway »

airway wrote: Thu Jan 21, 2021 8:10 am
igorcanuck wrote: Wed Jan 20, 2021 1:12 pm
teacher wrote: Wed Jan 20, 2021 12:06 pm Not sure if someone (or I) posted this already a while ago but De-Havilland has explored a shrunken DHC400. Same engines just de-rated (lower operating costs) so lower fuel burn and reduced engine wear but commonality with parts and type rating.

https://skiesmag.com/news/de-havilland- ... ash-8-400/
https://simpleflying.com/de-havilland- ... ended/amp/
Wow, what a difference four weeks makes :shock:

Oops disregard that’s one year and four weeks ha ha
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fish4life
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Re: Classic Dash replacement??

Post by fish4life »

The problem for the dash is the ATR is a more efficient product overall from an operating cost. ATR barely makes any 42’s anymore because the operating cost of a 72 is not much more. The operating cost of a 72 vs a Q400 is a pretty big difference, unless you need the extra speed and high altitude performance that the Q400 gives over the ATR they are just too expensive to operate.

In Canada the jazz and encore use the q400 almost like a regional jet would but it most of the rest of the world those routes are on regional jets or 737’s
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Mône
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Re: Classic Dash replacement??

Post by Mône »

Except the cities paired by those companies operating bigger metal have a population of 200 000, not 20 000.
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Kosiw
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Re: Classic Dash replacement??

Post by Kosiw »

Interesting tidbit from the March 1st Chorus press release

"Removal of 19 Dash 8-300s from Jazz’s Covered Aircraft fleet

19 Dash 8-300s will be removed from the fleet in 2021. Removal of the Dash 8- 300s will reduce future aircraft leasing revenue under the CPA by approximately $56.0 million over the remaining term of the contract.

Chorus owns these Dash 8-300s, 15 of which have undergone the Extended Service Program (‘ESP’) which prolongs their useful life by approximately 15 years. Chorus has the ability to sell or lease these aircraft or convert them for cargo operations."

Freight demand has increased worldwide, with 19 surplus aircraft available and easily convertible to freight ops, there is opportunity for Chorus/Jazz should they decide to go after that type of work.
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Re: Classic Dash replacement??

Post by Inverted2 »

I wouldn’t be surprised if the Classics don’t end up sticking around a while longer if part of the Feds deal with the airlines involves restoring service to some of the places abandoned last year - mainly in Quebec.
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Re: Classic Dash replacement??

Post by Rowdy »

I believe it is worded to show that their numbers are being removed from CPA protections. I doubt they will be no longer flying routes for Jazz/AC until suitable replacements are acquired for the routes they operate.

It makes me wonder if as part of the government bailout that we will end up purchasing some canadian built aircraft to help further the recovery of our economy. The Q is more efficient than the classic and it would certainly look positive for the Turdeau administration to show their devotion to the green movement by replacing old dirty dash's with new Q's. It would also show an investment in canadian jobs.

Perhaps the release of the bailout information is tied to a few pots in the fire? This one included?
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Splash
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Re: Classic Dash replacement??

Post by Splash »

Rowdy wrote: Fri Mar 05, 2021 1:57 pm I believe it is worded to show that their numbers are being removed from CPA protections. I doubt they will be no longer flying routes for Jazz/AC until suitable replacements are acquired for the routes they operate.

It makes me wonder if as part of the government bailout that we will end up purchasing some canadian built aircraft to help further the recovery of our economy. The Q is more efficient than the classic and it would certainly look positive for the Turdeau administration to show their devotion to the green movement by replacing old dirty dash's with new Q's. It would also show an investment in canadian jobs.

Perhaps the release of the bailout information is tied to a few pots in the fire? This one included?
Q400 production has been suspended and may not resume. There are so many, perhaps a 100 or more available for lease and no demand for new builds. The DH3 was on it's way out, just a little sooner than expected. I imagine AC will focus on regional routes that can support the current fleet of DH4, CR9 and E75. Of the aforementioned fleet, some of be subject to lease returns up to 2025. The CR2 is on death-row in my view.
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throwaway123
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Re: Classic Dash replacement??

Post by throwaway123 »

The DHC8 was already supposed to be removed many times from the fleet over the years and it keeps on trucking.

It's just being removed from the "covered fleet" guarantees but there's a high probability it will remain flying under Jazz for a while. Especially as we recover from Covid and have to start flying thin routes as they ramp up.

Under the new CPA from 2019 the DHC8 was slated to be completely gone by 2025, I would guess that's still going to be around the time the last Classic stops flying although now it gives AC a little wiggle room if they want to remove it a year or two earlier if it makes sense to.

Remember Jazz's CPA calls for a minimum of 80 76 seat aircraft by 2025. These EMBs will slot nicely into that, without the need to buy more aircraft although in the long term I can see all the aircraft being replaced with a single type (including the Q400).
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rudder
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Re: Classic Dash replacement??

Post by rudder »

throwaway123 wrote: Fri Mar 05, 2021 3:12 pm The DHC8 was already supposed to be removed many times from the fleet over the years and it keeps on trucking.
Not according to CHR it isn’t -

“19 Dash 8-300s will be removed from the fleet in 2021. Removal of the Dash 8- 300s will reduce future aircraft leasing revenue under the CPA by approximately $56.0 million over the remaining term of the contract.”

https://chorusaviation.com/chorus-aviat ... ir-canada/
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throwaway123
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Re: Classic Dash replacement??

Post by throwaway123 »

rudder wrote: Fri Mar 05, 2021 3:17 pm
throwaway123 wrote: Fri Mar 05, 2021 3:12 pm The DHC8 was already supposed to be removed many times from the fleet over the years and it keeps on trucking.
Not according to CHR it isn’t -

“19 Dash 8-300s will be removed from the fleet in 2021. Removal of the Dash 8- 300s will reduce future aircraft leasing revenue under the CPA by approximately $56.0 million over the remaining term of the contract.”

https://chorusaviation.com/chorus-aviat ... ir-canada/
They said the same in 2019. And some stayed a lot longer than they were supposed to.
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rudder
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Re: Classic Dash replacement??

Post by rudder »

throwaway123 wrote: Fri Mar 05, 2021 3:35 pm
rudder wrote: Fri Mar 05, 2021 3:17 pm
throwaway123 wrote: Fri Mar 05, 2021 3:12 pm The DHC8 was already supposed to be removed many times from the fleet over the years and it keeps on trucking.
Not according to CHR it isn’t -

“19 Dash 8-300s will be removed from the fleet in 2021. Removal of the Dash 8- 300s will reduce future aircraft leasing revenue under the CPA by approximately $56.0 million over the remaining term of the contract.”

https://chorusaviation.com/chorus-aviat ... ir-canada/
They said the same in 2019. And some stayed a lot longer than they were supposed to.
No, they didn’t.

The CPA fleet was reset in conjunction with the GGN transaction. D8-100 fleet was planned to zero. That happened. A reduced D8-300 fleet would get extended life modification and remain until 2025. Now it will not.

It would be great for the D8-300 to remain at Jazz until 2023 to mitigate the pilot surplus. But that does not appear to be in the cards.
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throwaway123
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Re: Classic Dash replacement??

Post by throwaway123 »

rudder wrote: Fri Mar 05, 2021 3:41 pm

No, they didn’t.

The CPA fleet was reset in conjunction with the GGN transaction. D8-100 fleet was planned to zero. That happened. A reduced D8-300 fleet would get extended life modification and remain until 2025. Now it will not.

It would be great for the D8-300 to remain at Jazz until 2023 to mitigate the pilot surplus. But that does not appear to be in the cards.
Sorry you're right. My mistake I must have been confusing the -100's with the -300's.
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