Jazz Payscale Updated 2019

Discuss topics relating to Jazz Aviation LP.

Moderators: ahramin, sky's the limit, Sulako, North Shore

User avatar
C-GGGQ
Rank (9)
Rank (9)
Posts: 1689
Joined: Mon May 21, 2007 12:33 pm

Re: Jazz Payscale Updated 2019

Post by C-GGGQ » Wed Feb 06, 2019 9:25 am

Yeah really. What's safer a guy with no experience flying solo in a 206 into a short dirt strip with little to no support or a guy with no experience flying right seat with an experienced mentor with the full support of a large airline (sop's, flight planners, efb's, de-ice equipment) flying into properly equipped airports? I know what crashes more often crj or a 206.
---------- ADS -----------
  

User avatar
Rowdy
Top Poster
Top Poster
Posts: 5038
Joined: Thu Jun 09, 2005 12:26 pm
Location: On Borrowed Wings

Re: Jazz Payscale Updated 2019

Post by Rowdy » Wed Feb 06, 2019 10:19 am

Who is scarier in the right seat:

1) 200hr eyes wide open college grad
2) 500hr king air/navajo FO
3) 1000hr instructor

They all have their faults/flaws. But thats where we're at for hiring now.

Hands down, I'll take the college kid who wants to learn, doesn't have any bad habits and won't try and tell me some made up SOP. (Yes thats actually happened). I've flown with enough of them now, and they're all sharp and 99% of them know their limitations.

I'd still much rather have a 3k ex-metro/king air/twin otter driver sitting next to me, but what can ya do.
---------- ADS -----------
  

User avatar
daedalusx
Rank 5
Rank 5
Posts: 307
Joined: Mon Jan 03, 2011 7:51 am

Re: Jazz Payscale Updated 2019

Post by daedalusx » Wed Feb 06, 2019 11:30 am

Rowdy wrote:
Wed Feb 06, 2019 10:19 am
Who is scarier in the right seat:

1) 200hr eyes wide open college grad
2) 500hr king air/navajo FO
3) 1000hr instructor

They all have their faults/flaws. But thats where we're at for hiring now.

Hands down, I'll take the college kid who wants to learn, doesn't have any bad habits and won't try and tell me some made up SOP. (Yes thats actually happened). I've flown with enough of them now, and they're all sharp and 99% of them know their limitations.

I'd still much rather have a 3k ex-metro/king air/twin otter driver sitting next to me, but what can ya do.
It's also fleet dependent.
The DH8 out West operates out of much more technical places (YCG, YYF, YYD, etc) and requires very good scan, speed control and situational awareness. I'm sorry but the instructor and the college grad, while he might know SOPs, can be nothing but dead weight in those places and the 500hr kingair guy, especially if he's flown those type of approaches before, will be a much much superior candidate. Now if only the wages could attract the 3000 hr twin/metro/pc12/kingair guys ...

I've never met a Pasco, Borek, Tindi, Carson guy/gal that had issues flying the plane, no matter their experiences - all amazing pilots. But I've met plenty of ex-instructors or college grad that sure struggled when the AP was MEL-ed.

Also keep in mind the company do not recognize green on green and you may very well have a situation soon where a 1500 YYZ DH8 guy, upgrades in YVR and his first pairing out of line indoc is a YYF midnight stand-up with a 250 hr college guy going there on the LOC step down with a tail wind at minimums. Doesn't that kind of tickles you a little ? It does to me.
---------- ADS -----------
  
In twenty years time when your kids ask how you got into flying you want to be able to say "work and determination" not "I just kept taking money from your grandparents for type ratings until someone was stupid enough to give me a job"

goingnowherefast
Rank (9)
Rank (9)
Posts: 1651
Joined: Wed Mar 13, 2013 9:24 am

Re: Jazz Payscale Updated 2019

Post by goingnowherefast » Thu Feb 07, 2019 6:14 am

daedalusx wrote:
Wed Feb 06, 2019 11:30 am
Also keep in mind the company do not recognize green on green and you may very well have a situation soon where a 1500 YYZ DH8 guy, upgrades in YVR and his first pairing out of line indoc is a YYF midnight stand-up with a 250 hr college guy going there on the LOC step down with a tail wind at minimums. Doesn't that kind of tickles you a little ? It does to me.
THIS!!! Numbers exaggerated slightly, but I have heard of 1800 hr captain and 500 hr FO. Both would obviously be junior and have some fatiguing schedule like midnight stand up or late reserve callout.

If I had 500 hours, I'd probably pick the 206 or king air FO over the Q400 because, at 500 hours, I need PIC time to get the ATPL. Can't afford to rent at Jazz pay and don't want to be a career regional FO either.
---------- ADS -----------
  

PostmasterGeneral
Rank 6
Rank 6
Posts: 450
Joined: Mon Feb 16, 2009 3:50 pm

Re: Jazz Payscale Updated 2019

Post by PostmasterGeneral » Thu Feb 07, 2019 7:04 am

goingnowherefast wrote:
Thu Feb 07, 2019 6:14 am
If I had 500 hours, I'd probably pick the 206 or king air FO over the Q400 because, at 500 hours, I need PIC time to get the ATPL. Can't afford to rent at Jazz pay and don't want to be a career regional FO either.
This is by far the most logical course of action, however unfortunately too many people have shiny jet syndrome and end up with a severe case of entitlement because they “worked hard to get those 250 hours.”
---------- ADS -----------
  

CFM56
Rank 0
Rank 0
Posts: 10
Joined: Sat Dec 29, 2018 9:13 pm

Re: Jazz Payscale Updated 2019

Post by CFM56 » Thu Feb 07, 2019 12:05 pm

daedalusx wrote:
Wed Feb 06, 2019 11:30 am
Rowdy wrote:
Wed Feb 06, 2019 10:19 am
Who is scarier in the right seat:

1) 200hr eyes wide open college grad
2) 500hr king air/navajo FO
3) 1000hr instructor

They all have their faults/flaws. But thats where we're at for hiring now.

Hands down, I'll take the college kid who wants to learn, doesn't have any bad habits and won't try and tell me some made up SOP. (Yes thats actually happened). I've flown with enough of them now, and they're all sharp and 99% of them know their limitations.

I'd still much rather have a 3k ex-metro/king air/twin otter driver sitting next to me, but what can ya do.
It's also fleet dependent.
The DH8 out West operates out of much more technical places (YCG, YYF, YYD, etc) and requires very good scan, speed control and situational awareness. I'm sorry but the instructor and the college grad, while he might know SOPs, can be nothing but dead weight in those places and the 500hr kingair guy, especially if he's flown those type of approaches before, will be a much much superior candidate. Now if only the wages could attract the 3000 hr twin/metro/pc12/kingair guys ...

I've never met a Pasco, Borek, Tindi, Carson guy/gal that had issues flying the plane, no matter their experiences - all amazing pilots. But I've met plenty of ex-instructors or college grad that sure struggled when the AP was MEL-ed.

Also keep in mind the company do not recognize green on green and you may very well have a situation soon where a 1500 YYZ DH8 guy, upgrades in YVR and his first pairing out of line indoc is a YYF midnight stand-up with a 250 hr college guy going there on the LOC step down with a tail wind at minimums. Doesn't that kind of tickles you a little ? It does to me.
Thanks for the vote of confidence. I hope if we fly together whoever you are, it goes well and it’s not too technical for me :lol:

If we have already, sorry if I’ve proven my incompetence but remember the “experienced” folks learned the “technical stuff” too it wasn’t a birth given skill smh...
---------- ADS -----------
  

User avatar
stayls
Rank 1
Rank 1
Posts: 49
Joined: Mon Jan 08, 2018 12:43 pm
Contact:

Re: Jazz Payscale Updated 2019

Post by stayls » Thu Feb 07, 2019 1:29 pm

CFM56 wrote:
Thu Feb 07, 2019 12:05 pm
daedalusx wrote:
Wed Feb 06, 2019 11:30 am
Rowdy wrote:
Wed Feb 06, 2019 10:19 am
Who is scarier in the right seat:

1) 200hr eyes wide open college grad
2) 500hr king air/navajo FO
3) 1000hr instructor

They all have their faults/flaws. But thats where we're at for hiring now.

Hands down, I'll take the college kid who wants to learn, doesn't have any bad habits and won't try and tell me some made up SOP. (Yes thats actually happened). I've flown with enough of them now, and they're all sharp and 99% of them know their limitations.

I'd still much rather have a 3k ex-metro/king air/twin otter driver sitting next to me, but what can ya do.
It's also fleet dependent.
The DH8 out West operates out of much more technical places (YCG, YYF, YYD, etc) and requires very good scan, speed control and situational awareness. I'm sorry but the instructor and the college grad, while he might know SOPs, can be nothing but dead weight in those places and the 500hr kingair guy, especially if he's flown those type of approaches before, will be a much much superior candidate. Now if only the wages could attract the 3000 hr twin/metro/pc12/kingair guys ...

I've never met a Pasco, Borek, Tindi, Carson guy/gal that had issues flying the plane, no matter their experiences - all amazing pilots. But I've met plenty of ex-instructors or college grad that sure struggled when the AP was MEL-ed.

Also keep in mind the company do not recognize green on green and you may very well have a situation soon where a 1500 YYZ DH8 guy, upgrades in YVR and his first pairing out of line indoc is a YYF midnight stand-up with a 250 hr college guy going there on the LOC step down with a tail wind at minimums. Doesn't that kind of tickles you a little ? It does to me.
Thanks for the vote of confidence. I hope if we fly together whoever you are, it goes well and it’s not too technical for me :lol:

If we have already, sorry if I’ve proven my incompetence but remember the “experienced” folks learned the “technical stuff” too it wasn’t a birth given skill smh...

Ok there may be a truth on that but as all the aviation industry around the world is experiencing right now, you will have "250 hr only" pilots in a couple of years and you will be missing those +1000hr pilots...

So sorry but it's the true...
---------- ADS -----------
  

CFM56
Rank 0
Rank 0
Posts: 10
Joined: Sat Dec 29, 2018 9:13 pm

Re: Jazz Payscale Updated 2019

Post by CFM56 » Thu Feb 07, 2019 1:55 pm

stayls wrote:
Thu Feb 07, 2019 1:29 pm
CFM56 wrote:
Thu Feb 07, 2019 12:05 pm
daedalusx wrote:
Wed Feb 06, 2019 11:30 am


It's also fleet dependent.
The DH8 out West operates out of much more technical places (YCG, YYF, YYD, etc) and requires very good scan, speed control and situational awareness. I'm sorry but the instructor and the college grad, while he might know SOPs, can be nothing but dead weight in those places and the 500hr kingair guy, especially if he's flown those type of approaches before, will be a much much superior candidate. Now if only the wages could attract the 3000 hr twin/metro/pc12/kingair guys ...

I've never met a Pasco, Borek, Tindi, Carson guy/gal that had issues flying the plane, no matter their experiences - all amazing pilots. But I've met plenty of ex-instructors or college grad that sure struggled when the AP was MEL-ed.

Also keep in mind the company do not recognize green on green and you may very well have a situation soon where a 1500 YYZ DH8 guy, upgrades in YVR and his first pairing out of line indoc is a YYF midnight stand-up with a 250 hr college guy going there on the LOC step down with a tail wind at minimums. Doesn't that kind of tickles you a little ? It does to me.
Thanks for the vote of confidence. I hope if we fly together whoever you are, it goes well and it’s not too technical for me :lol:

If we have already, sorry if I’ve proven my incompetence but remember the “experienced” folks learned the “technical stuff” too it wasn’t a birth given skill smh...

Ok there may be a truth on that but as all the aviation industry around the world is experiencing right now, you will have "250 hr only" pilots in a couple of years and you will be missing those +1000hr pilots...

So sorry but it's the true...
Ok but if those of us hired at 250 are taught the “right way” then as others with more experience have said, it’s better than the 1000hr guys with the bad habits from bush jobs or arctic flying. Sorry but it’s true that 1000hr pilots are the most susceptible to accidents... that’s a fact that’s being taught in human factors courses at every flying school.

As I said before, we have to learn somewhere whether it’s at a 705 with a good training program or a less reputable company where it’s by trial and error on the job.

Either way, don’t make it sound like the 250 guys are to blame... do you think we’d be dumb enough to turn down the job because we “lack skill”?.
---------- ADS -----------
  

FL-280
Rank 3
Rank 3
Posts: 136
Joined: Fri Jan 20, 2017 6:45 pm

Re: Jazz Payscale Updated 2019

Post by FL-280 » Thu Feb 07, 2019 2:14 pm

Sorry but you don't learn at a 705 operator. I hate it when fo's tell me, I am here to learn, but how will I learn etc...
705 is about operating safely and then yeah, the more time you spend doing something the more experience you get and won't repeat mistakes!
---------- ADS -----------
  

CFM56
Rank 0
Rank 0
Posts: 10
Joined: Sat Dec 29, 2018 9:13 pm

Re: Jazz Payscale Updated 2019

Post by CFM56 » Thu Feb 07, 2019 2:32 pm

FL-280 wrote:
Thu Feb 07, 2019 2:14 pm
Sorry but you don't learn at a 705 operator. I hate it when fo's tell me, I am here to learn, but how will I learn etc...
705 is about operating safely and then yeah, the more time you spend doing something the more experience you get and won't repeat mistakes!

Well speak for yourself, I’ve learned a great deal through the training provided and on the job with experienced captains. I guess you have to be a college grad to get it :?
---------- ADS -----------
  

Outlaw58
Rank 4
Rank 4
Posts: 275
Joined: Thu Jan 16, 2014 11:49 pm

Re: Jazz Payscale Updated 2019

Post by Outlaw58 » Thu Feb 07, 2019 3:01 pm

CFM56 wrote:
Thu Feb 07, 2019 2:32 pm
FL-280 wrote:
Thu Feb 07, 2019 2:14 pm
Sorry but you don't learn at a 705 operator. I hate it when fo's tell me, I am here to learn, but how will I learn etc...
705 is about operating safely and then yeah, the more time you spend doing something the more experience you get and won't repeat mistakes!

Well speak for yourself, I’ve learned a great deal through the training provided and on the job with experienced captains. I guess you have to be a college grad to get it :?
I don't know how to say this without sounding condescending so please understand I am saying the following with all due respect.

There are things you know, there are things you don't know....but if my own experience thought me anything, it's that there are even more things I don't know that I don't know.

705 ops provide you with a lot of resources to help crew complete their pairing efficiently and safely, it is a wonderful environment, I agree with you on the fact that I learn from it every day. What I and others refer too is what we learned from single pilot ops in shitty weather, out of comms with anyone, no ice protection, wx radar, TCAS or auto-pilot and crappy avionic suite. I painted myself in corners at time and managed to get myself out without being able to rely on ATC, dispatch or even an other pilot (FO) to offer an outsider's perspective. You may never encounter these conditions in 705 but those experiences affect the way you make decisions, the way you consider contingencies and even identify potential traps you might not have otherwise considered.

That being said, does that mean you can't do the job without it? Absolutely not. All I am suggesting is that each of our backgrounds define the amount and selection of tools to do the job that we bring to the cockpit and the crew.

As I like to repeat, experience is something acquired a fraction of a second after needing it.

58

PS: In keeping along with the analogy, some folks (I am one of those) show up in 705 with the absolute wrong toolbar. In that sense, I am learning just as much as any other new hire on the line. What I am suggesting however is that further down the line when I do have the proper tool bag, I also have another complete set that others may not have that could come useful one day....who knows?
---------- ADS -----------
  

mixturerich
Rank 3
Rank 3
Posts: 180
Joined: Mon Apr 13, 2015 7:04 pm

Re: Jazz Payscale Updated 2019

Post by mixturerich » Thu Feb 07, 2019 3:12 pm

Someone saying “you don’t learn at 705” :lol: Right when I thought I had heard it all!

And someone else saying that taking a Q400 job with 500 or less hours isn’t “logical”.

God you avcanada regulars are BRUTAL!

Keep it up!
---------- ADS -----------
  

FL-280
Rank 3
Rank 3
Posts: 136
Joined: Fri Jan 20, 2017 6:45 pm

Re: Jazz Payscale Updated 2019

Post by FL-280 » Thu Feb 07, 2019 4:04 pm

mixturerich wrote:
Thu Feb 07, 2019 3:12 pm
Someone saying “you don’t learn at 705” :lol: Right when I thought I had heard it all!

And someone else saying that taking a Q400 job with 500 or less hours isn’t “logical”.

God you avcanada regulars are BRUTAL!

Keep it up!
I really was trying to say it's not a place to learn. In my view, you show up with experience and operate safely. The college grad thing in my view has to stop, drives the market down.
---------- ADS -----------
  

User avatar
C-GGGQ
Rank (9)
Rank (9)
Posts: 1689
Joined: Mon May 21, 2007 12:33 pm

Re: Jazz Payscale Updated 2019

Post by C-GGGQ » Thu Feb 07, 2019 4:35 pm

Instructing as virtually the only option for new pilots, drives the market down and keeps pumping out cheap pilots. Let the new guys learn the right way from a good company instead of working for peanuts as an instructor and schools will not be able to get all those new cpls through. The market will then correct.
---------- ADS -----------
  

User avatar
stayls
Rank 1
Rank 1
Posts: 49
Joined: Mon Jan 08, 2018 12:43 pm
Contact:

Re: Jazz Payscale Updated 2019

Post by stayls » Thu Feb 07, 2019 6:10 pm

C-GGGQ wrote:
Thu Feb 07, 2019 4:35 pm
Instructing as virtually the only option for new pilots, drives the market down and keeps pumping out cheap pilots. Let the new guys learn the right way from a good company instead of working for peanuts as an instructor and schools will not be able to get all those new cpls through. The market will then correct.
+1

Please dont get me wrong. through all flying we will always see new things and learn and I am not saying 250 pilots are bad.
My point is at some point neither of them will be enough for the industry one day.

Edit: additional thoughts
---------- ADS -----------
  

Yieldermatik
Rank 2
Rank 2
Posts: 64
Joined: Sat Sep 08, 2018 8:47 pm

Re: Jazz Payscale Updated 2019

Post by Yieldermatik » Thu Feb 07, 2019 9:25 pm

He was trying to say you don't come to 705 TO learn...you should have learned certain things before joining the 705 operator. Of course you will always keep learning wherever you go...that's a given, but again, your knowledge base the day you join a 705 company should be at a specific level already. In an ideal world at least...
mixturerich wrote:
Thu Feb 07, 2019 3:12 pm
Someone saying “you don’t learn at 705” :lol:
---------- ADS -----------
  

mixturerich
Rank 3
Rank 3
Posts: 180
Joined: Mon Apr 13, 2015 7:04 pm

Re: Jazz Payscale Updated 2019

Post by mixturerich » Thu Feb 07, 2019 10:49 pm

Yieldermatik wrote:
Thu Feb 07, 2019 9:25 pm
He was trying to say you don't come to 705 TO learn...you should have learned certain things before joining the 705 operator. Of course you will always keep learning wherever you go...that's a given, but again, your knowledge base the day you join a 705 company should be at a specific level already. In an ideal world at least...
Whose ideal world? That’s subjective.
---------- ADS -----------
  

goingnowherefast
Rank (9)
Rank (9)
Posts: 1651
Joined: Wed Mar 13, 2013 9:24 am

Re: Jazz Payscale Updated 2019

Post by goingnowherefast » Fri Feb 08, 2019 5:59 am

Knowledge level that comes with having an ATPL in your pocket?
---------- ADS -----------
  

User avatar
Rowdy
Top Poster
Top Poster
Posts: 5038
Joined: Thu Jun 09, 2005 12:26 pm
Location: On Borrowed Wings

Re: Jazz Payscale Updated 2019

Post by Rowdy » Fri Feb 08, 2019 11:45 am

goingnowherefast wrote:
Fri Feb 08, 2019 5:59 am
Knowledge level that comes with having an ATPL in your pocket?
If our ATPL wasn't such a farce. Exams that were current in 1986. No requirement for the time to be on anything even remotely close to 'air transport' and no flight test.

We need to change our ATPL and move it at the very least towards the European standard. And then mandate an ATPL for all 705 category aircraft.
---------- ADS -----------
  

User avatar
KenoraPilot
Rank 7
Rank 7
Posts: 731
Joined: Fri Nov 04, 2005 2:34 pm
Location: Alberta

Re: Jazz Payscale Updated 2019

Post by KenoraPilot » Fri Feb 08, 2019 12:20 pm

Rowdy wrote:
Fri Feb 08, 2019 11:45 am
goingnowherefast wrote:
Fri Feb 08, 2019 5:59 am
Knowledge level that comes with having an ATPL in your pocket?
If our ATPL wasn't such a farce. Exams that were current in 1986. No requirement for the time to be on anything even remotely close to 'air transport' and no flight test.

We need to change our ATPL and move it at the very least towards the European standard. And then mandate an ATPL for all 705 category aircraft.
+10000%
---------- ADS -----------
  

47north
Rank 2
Rank 2
Posts: 93
Joined: Tue Jul 31, 2012 4:44 am

Re: Jazz Payscale Updated 2019

Post by 47north » Fri Feb 08, 2019 1:13 pm

KenoraPilot wrote:
Fri Feb 08, 2019 12:20 pm
Rowdy wrote:
Fri Feb 08, 2019 11:45 am
goingnowherefast wrote:
Fri Feb 08, 2019 5:59 am
Knowledge level that comes with having an ATPL in your pocket?
If our ATPL wasn't such a farce. Exams that were current in 1986. No requirement for the time to be on anything even remotely close to 'air transport' and no flight test.

We need to change our ATPL and move it at the very least towards the European standard. And then mandate an ATPL for all 705 category aircraft.
+10000%
I agree. As long as I am grandfathered in with my ATPL 😊
---------- ADS -----------
  

goingnowherefast
Rank (9)
Rank (9)
Posts: 1651
Joined: Wed Mar 13, 2013 9:24 am

Re: Jazz Payscale Updated 2019

Post by goingnowherefast » Fri Feb 08, 2019 3:38 pm

Rowdy wrote:
Fri Feb 08, 2019 11:45 am
goingnowherefast wrote:
Fri Feb 08, 2019 5:59 am
Knowledge level that comes with having an ATPL in your pocket?
If our ATPL wasn't such a farce. Exams that were current in 1986. No requirement for the time to be on anything even remotely close to 'air transport' and no flight test.

We need to change our ATPL and move it at the very least towards the European standard. And then mandate an ATPL for all 705 category aircraft.
Better be careful there. If the ATPL is required for 705 flight crew, and the licensing requirement is time is experience in transport category aircraft, then you've made a catch 22. I'd only go as far as to make some form of requirement for experience operating under an operating certificate (meaning 604, 702, 703, 704). Could even say an IFR certified operation.
---------- ADS -----------
  

Post Reply

Return to “Jazz Aviation LP - Air Canada Express”