DEC

Discuss topics relating to Jazz Aviation LP.

Moderators: lilfssister, North Shore, ahramin, sky's the limit, sepia, Sulako, I WAS Birddog

CPT.HarshColdReality
Rank 2
Rank 2
Posts: 90
Joined: Tue Oct 23, 2018 6:07 am

DEC

Post by CPT.HarshColdReality »

Memo came in about bringing in DECs. Is that allowed in our contract? I understand that EVERYONE with an ATPL got an upgrade this last bid. Things are getting OUT OF CONTROL!

Can we keep double time for WDO and go get raises??

Thoughts, comments?
---------- ADS -----------
 
timeflies
Rank 2
Rank 2
Posts: 91
Joined: Mon Jan 29, 2018 1:41 pm
Location: Kelowna

Re: DEC

Post by timeflies »

Sorry bud, this is the Harsh Cold Reality. A lot of vacancies on the last bid and no ATPL's, get used to it.
---------- ADS -----------
 
derateNO
Rank 4
Rank 4
Posts: 288
Joined: Mon Feb 10, 2020 10:15 pm

Re: DEC

Post by derateNO »

No it's not allowed unless the union OK'd it. If they did, if be making phone calls if I was still at Jazz expecting an explanation as to what the pilots got in return. I'd also play audio from the mouth of the Executive saying they expect the company will need to negotiate again very soon to allow DEC. And that they plan to then push for more raises for new hires and other things like J class and full DOH credit for left seat.

If you guys got nothing you got bamboozled by Claude and his cronies.
---------- ADS -----------
 
digits_
Rank 10
Rank 10
Posts: 2972
Joined: Mon Feb 14, 2011 2:26 am

Re: DEC

Post by digits_ »

Does that mean there is a minimum time as FO defined in your contract?

If not, people can be hired as an FO and upgraded within a week, no?
---------- ADS -----------
 
As an AvCanada discussion grows longer:
-the probability of 'entitlement' being mentioned, approaches 1
-one will be accused of using bad airmanship
derateNO
Rank 4
Rank 4
Posts: 288
Joined: Mon Feb 10, 2020 10:15 pm

Re: DEC

Post by derateNO »

Yes technically they could. And it's happened.
---------- ADS -----------
 
mbav8r
Rank 10
Rank 10
Posts: 2181
Joined: Sun Jul 02, 2006 8:11 am
Location: Manitoba

Re: DEC

Post by mbav8r »

I can’t any language in the contract preventing DEC’s.
---------- ADS -----------
 
"Stand-by, I'm inverted"
derateNO
Rank 4
Rank 4
Posts: 288
Joined: Mon Feb 10, 2020 10:15 pm

Re: DEC

Post by derateNO »

mbav8r wrote: Sun Feb 16, 2020 2:23 pm I can’t any language in the contract preventing DEC’s.
I remember at the road show last year they specifically mentioned it and said it would trigger more negotiations.

That with the current pay rates they wouldn't be able to hire anyone with atpls or experience, and would have to raise the pay for everyone especially new hire FOs to attract experienced pilots. Now they are going to DEC which bypasses that, and will negatively effect those who are only a few months away from holding an ATPL are are entitled to bid for those positions.

I guess they were lying.
---------- ADS -----------
 
av8ts
Rank 8
Rank 8
Posts: 831
Joined: Fri Apr 08, 2011 8:31 am

Re: DEC

Post by av8ts »

derateNO wrote: Sun Feb 16, 2020 2:29 pm
mbav8r wrote: Sun Feb 16, 2020 2:23 pm I can’t any language in the contract preventing DEC’s.
I remember at the road show last year they specifically mentioned it and said it would trigger more negotiations.

That with the current pay rates they wouldn't be able to hire anyone with atpls or experience, and would have to raise the pay for everyone especially new hire FOs to attract experienced pilots. Now they are going to DEC which bypasses that, and will negatively effect those who are only a few months away from holding an ATPL are are entitled to bid for those positions.

I guess they were lying.
There is a continuous turnover of Captains at the bottom of the list who are going to AC. There will be a Captain position for anyone who is about to get their ATPL. And they will be ahead of any DEC’s
---------- ADS -----------
 
derateNO
Rank 4
Rank 4
Posts: 288
Joined: Mon Feb 10, 2020 10:15 pm

Re: DEC

Post by derateNO »

av8ts wrote: Sun Feb 16, 2020 4:27 pm
derateNO wrote: Sun Feb 16, 2020 2:29 pm
mbav8r wrote: Sun Feb 16, 2020 2:23 pm I can’t any language in the contract preventing DEC’s.
I remember at the road show last year they specifically mentioned it and said it would trigger more negotiations.

That with the current pay rates they wouldn't be able to hire anyone with atpls or experience, and would have to raise the pay for everyone especially new hire FOs to attract experienced pilots. Now they are going to DEC which bypasses that, and will negatively effect those who are only a few months away from holding an ATPL are are entitled to bid for those positions.

I guess they were lying.
There is a continuous turnover of Captains at the bottom of the list who are going to AC. There will be a Captain position for anyone who is about to get their ATPL. And they will be ahead of any DEC’s
If that's the case, then I don't see a problem with it.

What I would be concerned about is if you were planning to stick around at Jazz and now with the 1/2 credit to the left seat stuff if things slowed down and you were delayed a year to the left seat that effects your earning potential for the rest of your career.

That being said I don't really see things slowing down at least not for a while.
---------- ADS -----------
 
wondering?
Rank 1
Rank 1
Posts: 16
Joined: Thu Mar 26, 2015 3:11 pm

Re: DEC

Post by wondering? »

This is very interesting.
I have an application in with Jazz. I have my ATPL and lots of MPIC turbine time. Over 3000 hours total time.
Assuming I get called, what sort of scenario could play out for my first few months? I have literally no idea how the seniority or bidding or how anything in the 705 world works.
How would they choose if I were able to go captain rather than FO? Would they train me as an FO only to have to train me as a captain right after were I to qualify and they needed captains?
And I assume once the higher seniority FOs would all jump over me once they upgraded? So someone who chose to upgrade quickly could expect better pay but a worse schedule as new higher seniority FOs got their upgrades?
This all seems a bit crazy. I would be really interested to know if the management expected this scenario or if they are being taken by surprise.
---------- ADS -----------
 
derateNO
Rank 4
Rank 4
Posts: 288
Joined: Mon Feb 10, 2020 10:15 pm

Re: DEC

Post by derateNO »

From some inside info from friends in the training department, there have been some people recently who haven't even finished initial line indoc before being sent back to training for PIC assessment and left seat training.

I would gather unless you are coming from a Q/dash or EMB, or something else similar and already in the left seat you would likely get hired as FO but upgrade extremely quickly once on site. The company can not deny you an opportunity to attempt an upgrade even if you've only been there a week so long as you have an ATPL and your seniority can hold it..

Realistically though, if you have never flown in a 705 environment I would suggest flying a few months in the right seat first.
---------- ADS -----------
 
CPT.HarshColdReality
Rank 2
Rank 2
Posts: 90
Joined: Tue Oct 23, 2018 6:07 am

Re: DEC

Post by CPT.HarshColdReality »

I guess they can work around it by hiring guys with ATPL as FOs and then they will automatically upgrade with backfills before finishing their initial training. What a wonderful trick.

Hopefully the union is watching closely and doing their job by negotiating. They should of seen this coming a LONG time ago. Very poor planning. Air Canada has 900 some vacancies in the last bid and they apparently missed the 60% target last year.......

This is truly a new Golden Age for pilots. I hope the union is watching carefully and getting us something in return.

I think they should also have way more people captains giving PICUS. IT should be any captain with over 3 000 hrs giving some. After a short half a day course.
---------- ADS -----------
 
rudder
Rank 10
Rank 10
Posts: 2173
Joined: Wed Mar 08, 2006 12:10 pm

Re: DEC

Post by rudder »

Pay qualified CA to do PICUS supervision.

PICUS log requires a signature for each flight. That signature is worth something more than zero.
---------- ADS -----------
 
CPT.HarshColdReality
Rank 2
Rank 2
Posts: 90
Joined: Tue Oct 23, 2018 6:07 am

Re: DEC

Post by CPT.HarshColdReality »

rudder wrote: Sun Feb 16, 2020 5:44 pm Pay qualified CA to do PICUS supervision.

PICUS log requires a signature for each flight. That signature is worth something more than zero.
Fair enough what's a fair amount? 7$ extra an hour? The way ops are at Jazz is that you will barely notice you are doing PICUS because everyone usually works in a team......in my experience at least.
---------- ADS -----------
 
derateNO
Rank 4
Rank 4
Posts: 288
Joined: Mon Feb 10, 2020 10:15 pm

Re: DEC

Post by derateNO »

What ever happened to the PICUS/Mentor program they were talking about?

My guess is no one signed up because there was no financial incentive?

Personally I would have probably signed up since it would mean a higher chance of flying with FOs who weren't <500 hours.
---------- ADS -----------
 
kvny16r
Rank 0
Rank 0
Posts: 9
Joined: Sun Nov 13, 2016 3:45 pm

Re: DEC

Post by kvny16r »

As a captain, we should should ask ourselves, what is our responsibilities if we sign PICUS time...
---------- ADS -----------
 
speedah
Rank 2
Rank 2
Posts: 78
Joined: Thu Oct 31, 2013 2:46 pm
Location: Clear of 27 on Delta

Re: DEC

Post by speedah »

digits_ wrote: Sun Feb 16, 2020 2:13 pm Does that mean there is a minimum time as FO defined in your contract?

If not, people can be hired as an FO and upgraded within a week, no?
I feel like this is how accidents happen...

TT is one thing, but experience in 705 operations is another.

The margin of safety is growing thinner
---------- ADS -----------
 
av8ts
Rank 8
Rank 8
Posts: 831
Joined: Fri Apr 08, 2011 8:31 am

Re: DEC

Post by av8ts »

speedah wrote: Sun Feb 16, 2020 8:43 pm
digits_ wrote: Sun Feb 16, 2020 2:13 pm Does that mean there is a minimum time as FO defined in your contract?

If not, people can be hired as an FO and upgraded within a week, no?
I feel like this is how accidents happen...

TT is one thing, but experience in 705 operations is another.

The margin of safety is growing thinner
Jazz currently has no matrix for upgrades like some other airlines do, and probably won’t until there’s an accident with a new Captain
---------- ADS -----------
 
User avatar
JohnnyHotRocks
Rank (9)
Rank (9)
Posts: 1057
Joined: Tue Mar 29, 2005 7:18 am

Re: DEC

Post by JohnnyHotRocks »

What would the salary be for the first year of DEC?
---------- ADS -----------
 
derateNO
Rank 4
Rank 4
Posts: 288
Joined: Mon Feb 10, 2020 10:15 pm

Re: DEC

Post by derateNO »

Around $75-80k ish.

Depends how much you work. If you do the minimum plus maybe one ot day a month or block growth, $80k without per diems is pretty average.

By year 2-3 it's pretty easy to crack $100k without much effort.
---------- ADS -----------
 
Post Reply

Return to “Jazz Aviation LP - Air Canada Express”