LCC

[Plim Sole]

Exactly! Management puts it's individual unions in a position where they have to fight, therefore creating a race to the bottom. Is either side at fault? Not really, management is trying to fulfill it's obligations to the board and shareholders and the unions are agreeing to take a rung lower on the ladder to keep the work.
It's catch 22 really.

BTW Topper, your avatar looks nothing like you!

[teacher]

So by this logic, people should stop accusing ACPA for the "race to the bottom" with SkyRegional and other tiered CPA providers. The blame should be on management, not the pilot group.

Sadly, it's always the pilots who are at each others throats and accuse one another of threatening each others WACONs.

Well therein lies the debate. Had ACPA said "No" to allowing a second tier 2 carrier would AC of done it anyway? It was in their CA that all tier 2 was to be flown by Jazz was it not. Is it really in their control? If the company REALLY wants to farm out more flying will scope clauses actually accomplish anything? Say CR comes to ACPA and says "listen, we want Jazz to fly the EMBs" (Just as an example here so relax for a sec) and ACPA says "HELL NO". CR turns around and says "we can't make money on them so they're going or it's CCAA again or we're going to court to amend the CA because for the sake of the company we have no choice" what do they do? CR gets his way. Likewise AC decides to have Jazz fly the LCC, what the hell can the Jazz ALPA pilots do? Nothing. It could go both ways too. The dashes have been talked about to be going tier 3 for a while some time in the future. Other than adjusting our WACON to make it more profitable for them to stay on the property what else can we do. SCOPE? Yah right.

We could all support a common wage scale across the aviation spectrum to even the playing field and support a nation wide seniority list to make pilot wages and working conditions much less negotiable though.

[Jastapilot]

How can you blame management? They're just doing what management does, and it's up to the employees to stand up and say, 'this isn't right'.

[flyinhigh]

+ 1 to teacher comment
This type of flying is Air Canada's flying. Not jazz. nor sky regional. And jazz flying should be jazz flying only. We are all working to keep the same airlines in business.

Don't mean to rant here, but jazz pilots are very hypocritical. They will sit here and complain that AC is giving our flying to Sky Regional and beyond, and yet at the same time they are hoping that AC's flying (aka EMB's and LCC) will come to jazz. Does nobody see anything wrong with this picture? We truly are our own worst enemy.

Dude, you are a Jazz Pilot are you not? Did you not just start as well? Or am I wrong here.

Based on what you wrote and alot of the stuff that I have read it seems the ONLY thing you support here is our statues pay and thats it.

Did you know that if AC did all the AC flying you would not have a job! Also you call me a hypocit yet I don't believe I have ever wished that we have there aircraft, nor do I want them. Some do yes, but to put that label on eveyone, including yourself is just wrong.

Cheers,
Mike

[TopperHarley]

BTW Topper, your avatar looks nothing like you!

Yeah I've got more of a "Denzel Washington look" I guess. Give me a few more years though, the crew meals are starting to age me

[DH772]

Hey, you're right. I didn't mean that to come across as labeling all jazz pilots as being hypocritical. I retract that statement. but now you are sitting here and judging me. I fully support Jazz and ALPA. There are many people much smarter then me working on issues for our job security. However, all my point was is that I don't support the lowering of our industry standards. What I am saying is that the flying JAZZ does as per the CPA is the flying that should be FOR JAZZ. The flying AC does (aka emb,320,widebodies) should be left for AC. My point was that we shouldn't be sitting here wanting growth based on the expense of another company. That IS ALL I'm saying. Just because jazz can do emb and LCC at a lower cost then AC, and just because Sky Regional can do regional flying at a lower cost then jazz, does not make it acceptable.

Yes it may bring one company more work but in the long run it just drives the industry lower and brings the reality of 2020 a little closer.

[vortac]

+1

DH772, well said.

[rudder]

Jazz does business in 3 different areas of commercial aviation. There is a legacy CPA contract for regional aircraft, there is scheduled charter for a packaged tour company, and there is on demand charter using a small dedicated fleet of regional aircraft. There is also a very small amount of ad hoc sub charters using the tour company aircraft. In the case of the CPA work, the total pilot compensation package likely puts the Jazz pilots at the top of the industry. For the tour company contract, the pilots are collecting narrowbody wages to be redistributed that are equal to what SSV was paying at the end and only $20/hr less than what AT pays their widebody pilots. And the AT pilots do not have a pension benefit that is even close to what the Jazz pilots have. It is clear that the Jazz pilots are not part of any movement to lower the bar for the piloting profession.

The reward for these bargaining successes will be no further growth in AC CPA work. Neither Jazz nor AC ever figured out that the deal got cheaper the more that the Jazz CPA fleet was upguaged. The Q400 for CRJ substitutions will help but at just 15 airframes does not go nearly far enough to realising the cost reduction potential inherrent in the status pay system.

Jazz's willingness to be a seasonal operator on behalf of TC will remain an attractive option for a company that needs to redeploy assets on a part-time basis and that is trying to make gains in market share in the Canadian marketplace. Jazz's cost structure is consistent with this segment of the industry and its flexibility and infrastructure are its most marketable features. But once again, with only one current customer for this type of service growth opportunities are at other party discretion and Jazz risks exposure with all of its narrowbody eggs in one basket.

Jazz does not need the AC EMB work, nor is it a contender for any AC initiative to create a low cost division to run its current equipment or routes. It is time for Jazz to look beyond AC for revenue growth. So what Jazz needs is a strategy to preserve the existing revenue stream from AC (possibly by acquiring competitors) and to grow external revenue (possibly by acquiring other operators). These initiatives will require cash. This means that in order to grow, the Chorus BOD must reavaluate the curent dividend policy. If they do not, in the future there may be no dividend to distribute. Food for thought.

[LisaS]

Great post! I'll bet you will see Jazz doing the Alberta- Hawaii flights for WestJet come next season. I know there are other options out there but I would love to see it stay in Canada.

[whiteguy]

Great post! I'll bet you will see Jazz doing the Alberta- Hawaii flights for WestJet come next season. I know there are other options out there but I would love to see it stay in Canada.

Flying what aircraft? It's not like Jazz owns the planes to fly WS routes and neither does WS. Wonder if any WS "guest" will come back after all the mechanical delays last winter.

[Plim Sole]

I doubt it... I'd rather take a mechanical delay than get on a filthy plan with grumpy rude flight attendants any day!

[flyinhigh]

Hey, you're right. I didn't mean that to come across as labeling all jazz pilots as being hypocritical. I retract that statement. but now you are sitting here and judging me. I fully support Jazz and ALPA. There are many people much smarter then me working on issues for our job security. However, all my point was is that I don't support the lowering of our industry standards. What I am saying is that the flying JAZZ does as per the CPA is the flying that should be FOR JAZZ. The flying AC does (aka emb,320,widebodies) should be left for AC. My point was that we shouldn't be sitting here wanting growth based on the expense of another company. That IS ALL I'm saying. Just because jazz can do emb and LCC at a lower cost then AC, and just because Sky Regional can do regional flying at a lower cost then jazz, does not make it acceptable.

Yes it may bring one company more work but in the long run it just drives the industry lower and brings the reality of 2020 a little closer.

With that, you are absolutely right!!

[mbav8r]

DH772 wrote;
My point was that we shouldn't be sitting here wanting growth based on the expense of another company

However, how many of the ACPA boys and girls would vote "NO" to bringing all of the AC flying back in house?
Would that not be considered growth at another companies expense? Like it or not we are two completely seperate companies and there are some(percentage unknown) AC pilots who couldn't give a rats ass if we all lost our jobs and had to start over BOTL at AC or wherever, as long as the flying went back in house. In fact there is a thread in the AC forum which states exactly that.

Consider Status Pay for the Narrow Body fleet. Find a way to make provision for all AC flying to be done by AC pilots. Perhaps two Narrow Body Status Pay groups; one for Embraer and up, one for the smaller types. Make it economic, and AC will bring the flying in. End the whipsawing.

Read between the lines, "make it economic", do it cheaper than the competition(Jazz).
Does it make it right? No, but it is survival of the fittest. Westjets growth has been at the expense of AC and if they want to treat us like a competitor, why shouldn't we act like one.
Just playing devil's advocate here, so be gentle on my fragile ego

[DH772]

Yes, you're 100% correct. In order to raise the standards within aviation everyone needs to be on the same page. And quite frankly, that will never happen. I agree with you, that there are x percentage of AC pilots that would probably find satisfaction in Jazz pilots losing their jobs tomorrow and gaining more work. And the same time X percentage jazz pilots, happy to see any AC flying come here (again not labeling everyone here). The animosity between the groups is what's bringing us down. Why are we acting as if we are in competition with one another? Are the airlines not working to keep one another in business.

IMHO if you have 2 union groups against each other, all managment will ever need to say is "they can do it cheaper"

As for AC pilots not voting to keep the flying in house, I believe the same unfortunate scenario will burden them in the future, after opening up this can of worms.

rant over. Thanks for reading

DH

[Disco Stu]

I don't know why I allow myself to be baited into this subject, but.....

If I was a Jazz pilot, after the creation of Sky Regional I'd be more concerned with keeping the flying we've got then the possibility of getting more.....

Calin is on the record as saying Jazz is too expensive.

[bcflyer]

For the record, the AC pilots voted against the last TA which contained the let to allow SR to operate. Every day they fly they are in violation of our CA and it is being grieved.

The idea of having all AC flying under one roof is a great one. One union, one pilot group, no whipsawing. If the two groups had come together 10yrs ago we would be soooo far ahead right now that any gains or losses incurred by pilots at the time would be ancient history. Alas we are our own worst enemy and we are ALL paying for our shortsightedness.

[Pourdu_fun]

For the record, the AC pilots voted against the last TA which contained the let to allow SR to operate. Every day they fly they are in violation of our CA and it is being grieved.

The idea of having all AC flying under one roof is a great one. One union, one pilot group, no whipsawing. If the two groups had come together 10yrs ago we would be soooo far ahead right now that any gains or losses incurred by pilots at the time would be ancient history. Alas we are our own worst enemy and we are ALL paying for our shortsightedness.

Well said bcflyer.

Pourdu

[teacher]

I don't know why I allow myself to be baited into this subject, but.....

If I was a Jazz pilot, after the creation of Sky Regional I'd be more concerned with keeping the flying we've got then the possibility of getting more.....

Calin is on the record as saying Jazz is too expensive.

I don't know why I too get baited in EVERYTIME but truth is, airline owners will not be happy until.............

A) Planes fly themselves
B) FAs make no more than minimum wage
c) They announce that flight and duty time limits are sufficient

Fact of the matter is Mainline is more expensive hence the LCC and constant attack on your WACON
Jazz is more expensive hence Sky Regional and the threat of putting more tier 2 flying to tender

The fact that Jazz is a career and not just a job doesn't seem to factor in. Decent pay, benefits and a pension and all folks keep talking about is how we should all be thrown outta work and the flying go to the lowest bidder with first year wage scales, no benefits and bargain basement working conditions. I just don't get it.

[Squid]

All done with the petitions to out the mec?
Got some time for the forums again I see stu.

I don't know why I allow myself to be baited into this subject, but.....

If I was a Jazz pilot, after the creation of Sky Regional I'd be more concerned with keeping the flying we've got then the possibility of getting more.....

Calin is on the record as saying Jazz is too expensive.