Oh the sky keeps falling......

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flyinhigh
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Oh the sky keeps falling......

#1 Post by flyinhigh » Fri Oct 05, 2012 7:51 pm

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/globe-in ... le4586545/

Maybe, just Maybe the BOD will fire Randall's ass for destroying such a good company
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Localizer
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Re: Oh the sky keeps falling......

#2 Post by Localizer » Sat Oct 06, 2012 11:05 am

Its all part of the show .. Don't try telling me this crap wasn't dealt with months ago over drinks and cigars.

The show must go on ...
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Re: Oh the sky keeps falling......

#3 Post by Bede » Wed Oct 10, 2012 7:28 am

What's the word on the street WRT this decision? Is the company trying to open up the contract? Will there be a dividend cut?
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teacher
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Re: Oh the sky keeps falling......

#4 Post by teacher » Wed Oct 10, 2012 7:41 am

Dividend cut yes, opening up the contract no.
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Re: Oh the sky keeps falling......

#5 Post by hithere » Wed Oct 10, 2012 9:33 am

And how the hell do you know that they won't try to open it up?
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Bajan Pilot
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Re: Oh the sky keeps falling......

#6 Post by Bajan Pilot » Wed Oct 10, 2012 11:09 am

A simple question was asked and a simple answer was given, why do you have to make such an ignorant comment?
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Re: Oh the sky keeps falling......

#7 Post by RudderWhat » Wed Oct 10, 2012 3:05 pm

Bajan Pilot wrote:A simple question was asked and a simple answer was given, why do you have to make such an ignorant comment?
Do you think it's that simple?
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Re: Oh the sky keeps falling......

#8 Post by hithere » Wed Oct 10, 2012 3:59 pm

Listen man neither you, me or the ALPA MEC chair have any idea what is coming down the pipe. I'm a Jazz pilot just like you and I don't know why you would claim to be able to see into the future. Unless you are Joe Randel. Are you Joe Randel?
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teacher
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Re: Oh the sky keeps falling......

#9 Post by teacher » Wed Oct 10, 2012 8:02 pm

It's simple math kids and takes just a little reading the business section. Cash on hand is $30 million + more than the worse case rate adjustment plus retro pay to AC. All analysts agree AND the arbitrators ruled partially in favour of Jazz SO worste case amount of pay back will not happen. Jazz has enough liquid cash in the bank to cover all expenses new expenses. Now, to preserve free cash flow Jazz will have to cut the dividend. The average consensus seems to be a 25%-35% cut. Many especially employees in the company would like to see a bigger cut to help with expansion or any contingency plans in case of a CPA cancelation. The dividend should have never been allowed to climb to it's current level.
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Re: Oh the sky keeps falling......

#10 Post by Hoov » Wed Oct 10, 2012 8:40 pm

teacher wrote:It's simple math kids and takes just a little reading the business section. Cash on hand is $30 million + more than the worse case rate adjustment plus retro pay to AC. All analysts agree AND the arbitrators ruled partially in favour of Jazz SO worste case amount of pay back will not happen. Jazz has enough liquid cash in the bank to cover all expenses new expenses. Now, to preserve free cash flow Jazz will have to cut the dividend. The average consensus seems to be a 25%-35% cut. Many especially employees in the company would like to see a bigger cut to help with expansion or any contingency plans in case of a CPA cancelation. The dividend should have never been allowed to climb to it's current level.
I agree with all of that, but you're thinking too much like a pilot and not someone who is responsible to shareholders. Yes the dividend will get cut, but I can guarantee they will minimize the effect of that by asking for concessions, with any luck it wont be until negotiation time, but there is no doubt the BOD is not okay with sharply reducing cash on hand without searching for inefficiencies. If they were, they need to be replaced.
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Re: Oh the sky keeps falling......

#11 Post by teacher » Thu Oct 11, 2012 3:10 pm

Agreed but not until 2015 when our contract is up. Inefficiencies might be attacked but WACON will wait until contract time in that I think we'll be lucky to get cost of living ie 2% a year over 5 years.
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Re: Oh the sky keeps falling......

#12 Post by Jolene'sCabanaBoy » Thu Oct 11, 2012 4:00 pm

The MEC chairman has already indicated that he thinks the Contract will be opened prior to the expiration date, what makes you think otherwise?
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Re: Oh the sky keeps falling......

#13 Post by Mig29 » Thu Oct 11, 2012 6:52 pm

No point of losing your head over things you can't control people....

Things are not falling (yet) from the skies, times are definitively changing...but if someone has looked even remotely back in the last 100 years of aviation, then tell me when times were NOT changing???

Cheers
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Re: Oh the sky keeps falling......

#14 Post by RFN » Thu Oct 11, 2012 7:02 pm

The trouble is that as pilots, we are used to watching what we hope is stable indications (wx, engine, pax, etc etc) for a negative trend, or sometimes ANY change whatsoever.

Perhaps this makes us hyper sensitive to a string of bad news. Maybe, just maybe, it helps us notice it and like the frog in the pot of warming water, jump out BEFORE it starts to boil...
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Re: Oh the sky keeps falling......

#15 Post by Zip Tie » Fri Oct 12, 2012 3:30 pm

RFN wrote:The trouble is that as pilots, we are used to watching what we hope is stable indications (wx, engine, pax, etc etc) for a negative trend, or sometimes ANY change whatsoever.

Perhaps this makes us hyper sensitive to a string of bad news. Maybe, just maybe, it helps us notice it and like the frog in the pot of warming water, jump out BEFORE it starts to boil...
What a load of BS.More like the rats leave the sinking ship first. Way to go Capt Costa Concordia !
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Re: Oh the sky keeps falling......

#16 Post by Localizer » Sat Oct 13, 2012 6:24 am

IMO .. if the contract is reopened then that means you can usher in the "B scale" at Jazz. A separate payscale for new hires, DC pension for new hires .. just like AC.

Make sure to thank a Westjet pilot! ..
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Re: Oh the sky keeps falling......

#17 Post by ettw » Sat Oct 13, 2012 6:57 am

teacher wrote: The dividend should have never been allowed to climb to it's current level.
I'd like to see it go higher!! I have to retire! I'd bleed every penny out of Chorus just so I have to work one less year in this stupid industry.

That's what pilots do to other pilots....

ETTW
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Re: Oh the sky keeps falling......

#18 Post by Lateralus » Sat Oct 13, 2012 8:14 am

Localizer wrote:IMO .. if the contract is reopened then that means you can usher in the "B scale" at Jazz. A separate payscale for new hires, DC pension for new hires .. just like AC.

Make sure to thank a Westjet pilot! ..

Care to expand on the Westjet part?
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teacher
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Re: Oh the sky keeps falling......

#19 Post by teacher » Sat Oct 13, 2012 8:36 pm

Easy, they (WJ) brought the low cost model (read Walmartisation of air travel) to Canada and now have voted to gladly allow a low cost regional airline that has proudly announced plans to pay 80% of average regional salaries with the rumour being "not including Jazz". Awesome job.....
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Re: Oh the sky keeps falling......

#20 Post by RFN » Sun Oct 14, 2012 9:04 am

.
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Re: Oh the sky keeps falling......

#21 Post by ettw » Sun Oct 14, 2012 9:29 am

teacher wrote:Easy, they (WJ) brought the low cost model (read Walmartisation of air travel) to Canada and now have voted to gladly allow a low cost regional airline that has proudly announced plans to pay 80% of average regional salaries with the rumour being "not including Jazz". Awesome job.....
Westjet reacted to the market. The market created this mess so thank your neighbor who wants to go to YVR from YYZ for free....

ETTW
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Re: Oh the sky keeps falling......

#22 Post by Mig29 » Sun Oct 14, 2012 10:28 am

Why can't airlines protect their own interest and have some internal agreements with other carriers preventing creation of low coast, no service airlines??? Keep their turf protected from low cost "invaders" creating a unofficial alliance amongst each other. Everyone would control their market, control costs and not allow other new comers to undercut them.

Like OPEC does with their oil...not that I'm a fan of it, but the reality is you can't touch them! Yes, oil (as is pharmaceutical or military industry) is no match for airlines, but the amount of traffic airlines move yearly is huge and could possibly make their presence!
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Re: Oh the sky keeps falling......

#23 Post by DaveP » Sun Oct 14, 2012 11:59 am

Teacher,
The investment to start up a new airline is huge and we have to set it up right. I believe we (WestJet) started out below market median as well and now everyone is playing catch up to our wages and working conditions. Is that not a fair statement? Yet our costs still remain below others.
I also disagree with your statement of being proud to offer 80% market median.
In fact we had a comp and ben meeting last week. Nothing has been decided and we will continue to work on a fair wage keeping career progression in mind. In fact I believe the majority in the room wants us to at least match market median. The details will be available to you at the end of November.

One thing is for certain, change in the industry will never stop! Be open to it or be rigid - I suggest being open.

Cheers!

Dave.
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Re: Oh the sky keeps falling......

#24 Post by teacher » Sun Oct 14, 2012 1:16 pm

Listen, I'm not afraid of change, lord knows I've had more than my fair share. I, like many others in this business have reached my limit. Went to dinner with family and they were talking about jobs, salaries, career progression and granted those in the conversation had university degrees but hearing about career progression and getting paid for your experience once it's been gained got me sinking to that sad place. Unreal that after ALL THESE YEARS and thousnands of flight hours, both in the left and right seat, I may once again be applying for an entry level position for a fraction of what I make now. Will it happen? Who knows but it might.

Had another conversation with people about the services provided by airlines like luggage fees, meals and the likes and how things have gone down hill including being charged for everything. What the frig to people expect with such low fares. But remember who started all this in Canada with their "no frills" service that had to be matched by everyone else. I know they reacted to market forces but it's just another step down the ladder in this business.

End rant, now where were we........?
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Re: Oh the sky keeps falling......

#25 Post by DaveP » Sun Oct 14, 2012 6:45 pm

Fair enough! I hear ya.

Take care,
Dave.
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