Oh the sky keeps falling......

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mbav8r
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Re: Oh the sky keeps falling......

#26 Post by mbav8r » Mon Oct 15, 2012 6:52 am

Dave, with all due respect
I believe we (WestJet) started out below market median as well and now everyone is playing catch up to our wages and working conditions. Is that not a fair statement?
That's fair to say, now. Would it be fair to say 10-12 years ago began the pay cuts to compete with you? And the cuts keep coming.
In fact I believe the majority in the room wants us to at least match market median.
Can you confirm the rumor Jazz will not be in the comparator group for determining median?

Between your 80% to matching median and Sky regional, Jazz will be playing catch up for sure, just not the way you're implying.
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Re: Oh the sky keeps falling......

#27 Post by Localizer » Mon Oct 15, 2012 7:43 am

Isn't it fair to say the lack of compensation at the start or Westjet was easily recuperated with a generous stock program? I believe the original annoucement already touched on the stock program for Westjet Encore pilots, and its not equal to their comrades. I'll concede that the pay rates can't be the same between the two types, but giving one group lower benefits and stock options will create disparity and quickly lead to unionism. Lead by example .. don't follow Air Canada's mistakes.
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Re: Oh the sky keeps falling......

#28 Post by The Fish » Mon Oct 15, 2012 2:20 pm

What is the dash 8 pay at jazz anyway?
just so we can compare when WJ-Encore publishes their salary band.

Cheers

Fish
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Re: Oh the sky keeps falling......

#29 Post by Inverted2 » Mon Oct 15, 2012 2:44 pm

http://www.airlinepilotcentral.com/airl ... ation.html

P.S Dave P: Does one apply to Westjet for Westjet Encore or will there be a separate way to apply in the future?
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Re: Oh the sky keeps falling......

#30 Post by The Fish » Mon Oct 15, 2012 3:25 pm

Thanks inverted but that's the status pay rates not the pay for the dash itself.

Looking for the numbers specific to the dash before it's blended with the RJ pay to achieve the status rate,
that way we can compare apples to apples

Cheers

Fish
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Re: Oh the sky keeps falling......

#31 Post by Inverted2 » Mon Oct 15, 2012 3:35 pm

The Fish wrote:
Thanks inverted but that's the status pay rates not the pay for the dash itself.

Looking for the numbers specific to the dash before it's blended with the RJ pay to achieve the status rate,
that way we can compare apples to apples

Cheers

Fish
At Jazz there is no specific pay rate for the Dash 8, it is simply years of service and what seat you are in regardless of which type you fly.
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Re: Oh the sky keeps falling......

#32 Post by The Fish » Mon Oct 15, 2012 3:43 pm

thanks,
I understand the concept of status pay.
Last year when certain people were commenting on the fact that Jazz was flying the 757 for the same rates, in essence being the worst paying 757 operator out there, some Jazz guys in the know came back with the rate of the 757 before it was blended in to the status rate, I believe it was 158/hour or something like that.

I'm looking for that number for the dash, otherwise I can't see a reasonable way to compare Jazz to the WJ-encore rate when it's released. Can you?

Thanks again

Fish
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Re: Oh the sky keeps falling......

#33 Post by flyer 1492 » Mon Oct 15, 2012 5:24 pm

Hey Fish,

The rates you see are the correct rates for this year ending June 30, 2013. The 'blended' rates have been taken out, since the 757's have left the fleet. First year captain with 80 credit hours per month would receive $74,880 per year. Hope this helps.
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Re: Oh the sky keeps falling......

#34 Post by teacher » Mon Oct 15, 2012 5:25 pm

There is a rate, we've all seen it in the negots road shows but I'd have to dig it up.
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Re: Oh the sky keeps falling......

#35 Post by DaveP » Mon Oct 15, 2012 6:57 pm

Hi Teacher,
Of course Jazz is included in the comparator along with other reputable 705’s including Porter. Are you sure it’s going to be 80%? I’m only asking because I don’t even know and I was in the meetings! :)

Loc - No I don’t think it’s fair. I for example joined 12 years ago. We didn’t see the splits or options the guys did in the first 4-5 years. I think I made 40 as FO and 70k as a captain.

I would love to debate more openly but I can’ get into the nitty gritty as you can appreciate. All I’m saying is we are gonna try to set it up right and be very competitive.

Inverted - At this point I’m hearing from the HR two separate application portals on the website. My selection team will handle the interviewing for both.

Cheers!
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Re: Oh the sky keeps falling......

#36 Post by Black Cat » Tue Oct 16, 2012 12:15 pm

DaveP wrote:Teacher,
The investment to start up a new airline is huge and we have to set it up right. I believe we (WestJet) started out below market median as well and now everyone is playing catch up to our wages and working conditions. Is that not a fair statement? Yet our costs still remain below others.
I also disagree with your statement of being proud to offer 80% market median.
In fact we had a comp and ben meeting last week. Nothing has been decided and we will continue to work on a fair wage keeping career progression in mind. In fact I believe the majority in the room wants us to at least match market median. The details will be available to you at the end of November.

One thing is for certain, change in the industry will never stop! Be open to it or be rigid - I suggest being open.

Cheers!

Dave.


Dave,

Does the "fair pay" system Westjet employes to keep the flight attendants salaries BELOW that of industry standard apply to pilots currently at WJ mainline or will it apply to WJ encore?

I have limited knowledge of the fair pay system other than reading the FA's just lost their top pay scale due to industry wages dropping. Please explain further if you like

Regards.

BC
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Re: Oh the sky keeps falling......

#37 Post by The Fish » Tue Oct 16, 2012 1:16 pm

Flyer,
The number I'm looking for would essentially involve removing the CRJ portion from the hourly rate, leaving only the dash 8 rate.
The current rate is essentially the average of the CRJ rate and the Dash 8 rate giving the status rate. IE: (CRJ$+DH8$)/2= status$

Teacher if you could dig it out I'd appreciate it, thanks.

Just looking for a fair way to compare apples to apples.

Thanks for the time fellas

Fish
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Re: Oh the sky keeps falling......

#38 Post by Trim Spinner » Tue Oct 16, 2012 2:42 pm

Fish just isn't getting it.
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Re: Oh the sky keeps falling......

#39 Post by TrailerParkBoy » Tue Oct 16, 2012 2:58 pm

Let's look at this another way. If Jazz didn't have any RJs, how would that affect the salary for pilots flying the Dash 8?

Now to confuse things, is the pay the same on the classic Dash compares to the almighty Q400?
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Re: Oh the sky keeps falling......

#40 Post by DHC-1 Jockey » Tue Oct 16, 2012 3:24 pm

TrailerParkBoy wrote:Now to confuse things, is the pay the same on the classic Dash compares to the almighty Q400?
Yes, if a Dash Classic, Dash Q400 and RJ pilot were all hired the same day, they would all make the same hourly rate until the day they retire, regardless if they switch equipment.
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Re: Oh the sky keeps falling......

#41 Post by DaveP » Tue Oct 16, 2012 5:50 pm

Hi Cat,
I haven’t heard a thing about the “fair pay” thing affecting the pilots. I really and honestly don’t have much knowledge on the FA stuff only because I have enough things to focus on within the pilot group.

Cheers!
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Re: Oh the sky keeps falling......

#42 Post by Green Onions » Tue Oct 16, 2012 6:52 pm

Fish if you want to compare apples to apples you are looking for the Q400 rate not the Dash 8 rate. Somebody might be able to find it, however there is a lot more to compare than just rates. You would have to look at total compensation. Pay, penion ( or no penion), stock options, weeks of vacation, benefits, schedule, per diems, passes, the list goes on. Fish you seem very focused on simply the pay rate.
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Re: Oh the sky keeps falling......

#43 Post by The Fish » Tue Oct 16, 2012 10:22 pm

Green Onions wrote:Fish if you want to compare apples to apples you are looking for the Q400 rate not the Dash 8 rate. Somebody might be able to find it, however there is a lot more to compare than just rates. You would have to look at total compensation. Pay, penion ( or no penion), stock options, weeks of vacation, benefits, schedule, per diems, passes, the list goes on. Fish you seem very focused on simply the pay rate.
yeah G.O.
Total compensation is the most important thing, I'm just looking for another piece of that puzzle. Days off perdiems and pension info is available online.

Thanks for the input.

Fish
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Re: Oh the sky keeps falling......

#44 Post by The Fish » Tue Oct 16, 2012 10:25 pm

Trim Spinner wrote:Fish just isn't getting it.
Do you understand "status pay" and how that rate is calculated??
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Re: Oh the sky keeps falling......

#45 Post by QKDH8 » Wed Oct 17, 2012 6:44 am

Hi Fish,

I think the confusion is coming because there is no specific CRJ or DH8 or Q400 rate, only groups of rates.

Our contract (Section 10-9.01 for those that want to see) has 3 groups: "Small Body", "Narrow Body" and "Wide Body"

- Small Body is defined as max certified seating capacity to 90.
- Narrow Body is defined as single aisle, max certified seating capacity greater than 90.
- Wide Body is not defined (as it was never relevant) but one would assume twin aisle.

The CRJ 200/705, The DH8 1/3/Q4 are all certified under 90 seats, and as such are all defined as Small Body aircraft, having the same rate.

Essentially, if we got rid of all our Dash 8s, the pay rate would be the same. If we got rid of all our CRJs the rate would be the same. If we started to operate EMB 170s the rates would be the same. ATRs, the rates the same. But if we added say EMB190s (Max cert >90), they would be at the narrow body rate (Same as 757), and as such everyone would received a raise.

In summary, For all purposes the rates on the CRJ and the DH8 are the same, not because of status pay, but because they are grouped as Small Body, and so the "blended rate" would be blending two rates that are identical, coming out with a third identical number.

When the 757 were here, we were blending 125 Small Body, with 3 Narrow Body (6 airplanes, 1/2 year operation = 3 year round planes) to get a combined status pay rate. Since the exit of the 757s the pay rates have taken a small cut. (Offset by Cost Of Living Increase). Now we have only small body, so what you see as the status rates is in fact indicative of the DH8 rate, or the CRJ rate.

The actual numbers themselves are a little more complex, as there is some methodology used to calculate it. The rate given is for 16th year captain, and then they work backwards from that to arrive at a pay rate for each year of service.

For interest sake at the time of contact writing, the rates were:
Year 16 Capt, Small Body is 108.23/hr (As of July 2010)
Year 16 Capt, Narrow Body is 155/hr (As of July 2010)

More importantly, the current rates are below. These new pay rates still include some portion of the 757s, as the "blending" that occurred was an outlook of previous 6 months, and looking forward 6 months, that occurred in July of each year. Since 6 months prior to July 2012 we were still operating a few 757s, the number of airplanes / length of service was prorated and blended in to the rate. Bear in mind it wouldn't be the full amount of airframes, because they started to go back early spring, and were all gone April, with no intention of coming back. I think it was included in the formula as 2 757s. It'll be pretty close, but you can expect a straight CRJ/DH8 pay scale to be slightly less. (I would think in the ball park of $0.25-0.75/hr less when you strip out those 2 757s)

Pay Rates Effective July 1 2012
Year Captain First Officer
1 $78.25 $41.88
2 $80.21 $47.12
3 $82.22 $54.84
4 $84.28 $57.03
5 $86.39 $59.31
6 $88.55 $61.68
7 $90.76 $64.15
8 $93.03 $65.75
9 $95.36 $67.39
10 $97.74 $69.07
11 $100.18 $70.80
12 $102.68
13 $105.25
14 $107.88
15 $110.58
16 $113.34

So there you have it. You can pretty much fairly compare the above rates (- say 0.25-0.75 to be fair when you strip out the 757s) for our Q400s with SR, Porter and Encore.

Hope that helps!
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Re: Oh the sky keeps falling......

#46 Post by crj_705 » Wed Oct 17, 2012 7:45 am

And for those that want to know...

We have no 1st year CA at these salaries, EVER!!! Unless they are hired off the street direct entry into a left seat. All CA are promoted from within (seniority) and your FO years of service is brought with you onto the CA scale. So, if you are a 7yr FO and you are assigned a vacancy in the latest bid you will now receive 7yr CA pay and yearly increases from there on.

This was one of the major issues that forced us into a strike situation a few years back! :smt014
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Re: Oh the sky keeps falling......

#47 Post by The Fish » Wed Oct 17, 2012 8:57 am

QKDH8,
That answers my question, Thank you!!

Fish
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Re: Oh the sky keeps falling......

#48 Post by jjj » Thu Jan 10, 2013 3:21 am

Teacher,

You seem to suggest that the decline in WAWCON in Canada for pilots coincides with the start-up of WS. Is that right?
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Re: Oh the sky keeps falling......

#49 Post by Fanblade » Thu Jan 10, 2013 11:30 am

jjj wrote:Teacher,

You seem to suggest that the decline in WAWCON in Canada for pilots coincides with the start-up of WS. Is that right?
Not sure what Teacher meant, but no.

Deregulation is the culprit. The US deregulated about a decade before Canada. In many ways we are still a decade behind in evolution.

Increased competition is good for consumers. Forces inefficiencies out.

Unfortunately once that is done the only target left is WAWCON. Once one company has a cost advantage? They all have to match it to stay competitive. This is the slippery slope. Match it or parish.

Encore may appear to be the catalyst in this instance however AC was going to go there anyway due to the nature of the TB JV. Encore has just added to the cost pressure. It is no longer just Transboarder. It is now domestic as well.

Just look south of us to see the outcome.
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Re: Oh the sky keeps falling......

#50 Post by teacher » Thu Jan 10, 2013 12:52 pm

jjj wrote:Teacher,

You seem to suggest that the decline in WAWCON in Canada for pilots coincides with the start-up of WS. Is that right?
They didn't do it but they're continueing the trend minus a few percentage points. Like it was stated above, it's not only Encore. Like I mentioned in another thread, the worste part is these new low cost carriers were approved by other pilots pretty much giving a green light to lower the bar on WAWCON.
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