Oh the sky keeps falling......

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jjj
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Re: Oh the sky keeps falling......

#51 Post by jjj » Thu Jan 10, 2013 9:50 pm

"... didn't do it but are continuing the trend."

Care to substantiate that little gem.

JJJ
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teacher
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Re: Oh the sky keeps falling......

#52 Post by teacher » Fri Jan 11, 2013 11:54 am

Will Encore and Sky Regional match Jazz in WACON or pay less and work more?

A fast upgrade to a lower Captain payscale BTW does not count as making more money.
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jjj
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Re: Oh the sky keeps falling......

#53 Post by jjj » Fri Jan 11, 2013 11:26 pm

teacher wrote:Will Encore and Sky Regional match Jazz in WACON or pay less and work more?

A fast upgrade to a lower Captain payscale BTW does not count as making more money.
Ok - so you answered a question with a question. Assuming the question is rhetorical, then I must say again that your opinion of Encore remains speculative as we don't know where all the components will land just yet.

I speculate that your sour opinion of Encore comes from a realization that it's frustrating to be handcuffed with the cushy feel-good life that a bit of seniority can offer in a pedestrian career that grasps to a tenuous CPA with a nasty older brother that treats you as the bane of existence rather than a component of success. (sorry for the run on sentence - it's late).

In an industry where people rarely get to take their experience laterally, a career as mentioned above is worth holding onto as fates are out of our control and moving to where the "grass is greener" is not without risk. The sour tone that is thinly veiled in you redundant posts stems from the prospect that pilots who are junior to you in this industry may eventually fare better at a place like Encore.

Just speculating.

Have a great weekend.

JJJ
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teacher
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Re: Oh the sky keeps falling......

#54 Post by teacher » Sat Jan 12, 2013 7:36 am

All pilots junior or senior to me and those that won't even work at Jazz will fare worse if our industry WACON continues to degrade.

You are correct that I am speculating HOWEVER with the information that's been passed around and stated to be true. I hope I'm wrong for the sake of EVERYONE. Do I like my job? Of course, and I planned on making Jazz a career. So as you can imagine and have accuratly pointed out when a cheapo deapo operation is set up to compete with an established carrier that I work for and threatens my job and ability to support my family yes, it gets to me. And for what? For a chance to fly for WJ mainline? To line the pockets of WJ management? To offer Joe public more discounted air fares that haven't kept up with inflation in the last 30 years?

When we renegoiate our contract and are faced with pay freezes or cuts to keep up with the "new industry standard" who's fault will that be? Mine? ALPAs? New start ups offering to do the same job for less?
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anonymity
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Re: Oh the sky keeps falling......

#55 Post by anonymity » Sat Jan 12, 2013 9:13 am

lat·er·al (ltr-l)
adj.
1. Of, relating to, or situated at or on the side.
2. Of or constituting a change within an organization or a hierarchy to a position at a similar level, as in salary or responsibility, to the one being left: made a lateral move within the company.
The reponsibility is the same, can you point out what isn't?
Teacher, I feel your pain, I too am, was, planning my career at Jazz. The only comfort I have in all of this, is they literally gave WJ management the tool to lower their own WAWCONs and their contract is up before ours. The carrot being dangled to attract some experience over there at lower standards, well unless WJ had orders for wide bodies, I wouldn't put too much into that carrot. In the near term, definite stagnation, without widebodies long term stagnation and downward pressure on wages etc..
Don't ask any hardcore Westjetter to admit what they've done, they're still in denial from 16 years ago, yes you lowered the bar, whether you admit it or not and you did it again with encore, whether you admit that or not!
BTW, some of the more grounded WJ pilots I have talked to, admit they were likely a pawn in a big CEO chess match.
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Mig29
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Re: Oh the sky keeps falling......

#56 Post by Mig29 » Sat Jan 12, 2013 9:44 am

JJJ,

the more and more I read your posts, I realize that you are so much emotionally detached from the issue that is facing pilots in this industry, that you either are a former one (now in the office) or so close to your retirement that you don't care? Pardon me for making these assumptions, if you are not, then at least you sound like this to me....
jjj wrote:In an industry where people rarely get to take their experience laterally, a career as mentioned above is worth holding onto as fates are out of our control and moving to where the "grass is greener" is not without risk. The sour tone that is thinly veiled in you redundant posts stems from the prospect that pilots who are junior to you in this industry may eventually fare better at a place like Encore.
....Pilots will eventually fare better at places like Encore. Really JJJ, really??!? How, by undercutting everyone in this industry by as much as 50% and then on top of it working MORE then their colleagues? Is that how? So that they maybe have a crack at the flow through at mainline to sit right seat for a loooong time before sliding left. WJ is a mature company, stacked with captains under 40 years old. How long does this new right seater has to wait before he upgrades?

At a company that is at it's peak domestic flying, so is now (rightly so) using smaller aircraft to maximize efficiency...not expand! Unless, they get a fleet of wide-bodies....what 10, 20 maybe?? Jazz had closer to 10 wide-bodies...didn't really make a heck of a difference for guys on seniority list...

Transat is following suit as well I hear, with their "important" announcement coming up soon. They will either announce new narrow type aircraft or press Canjet to become cheapest B737 operators. I mean, it's not like it hasn't been done before, right?

So, when we get these new "impressive" pay scales at Canjet, Sunwing, Rouge, Sky, Encore, Transat...how long before best WJ and AC loose their 'greener pastures' as you mention....
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cv990
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Re: Oh the sky keeps falling......

#57 Post by cv990 » Sat Jan 12, 2013 11:55 am

Mig29 wrote: Jazz had closer to 10 wide-bodies...
Um.......... we did? I've been part of the Jazz/Air BC family since 1990.. not sure what wide body a/c we had.....

757 isn't a wide body......and they weren't ours.....
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FICU
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Re: Oh the sky keeps falling......

#58 Post by FICU » Sat Jan 12, 2013 12:07 pm

anonymity wrote:BTW, some of the more grounded WJ pilots I have talked to, admit they were likely a pawn in a big CEO chess match.
My experience as well... many are not happy about this at all.

This is what happens when employees become "owners". They no longer think of what's good for their jobs and professions and only become consumed with what's good for the value of the stock they hold as a big chunk of their earnings. Back at the start up Clive and the boys knew that making the employees owners would allow them much more freedom in shaping the company and that they would offer much less resistance to change, especially negative change to the employees.

Do you think that if the employees weren't owners Encore with it's lower WACON for pilots and base staff would have been so easily pushed through?
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jjj
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Re: Oh the sky keeps falling......

#59 Post by jjj » Sat Jan 12, 2013 12:55 pm

Teacher, I respect that reply - well said. BTW - the greener grass statement was generic and not meant as a description of WS.

Mig, I'm a line pilot only and retirement is theoretically 14 years away. If WS tanks or my vasectomy is botched then retirement can easily be moved back a fair bit.

I am detached from what junior pilots face. Honestly, that's because people starting these days have more to look forward to than when I started. In the years prior to WS I did everything I could to fight for the little guy. I stood up and fought more battles and risked getting fired in the name of good character than most have done in their entire careers.

Anonymity, if you still believe that WS lowered the bar 16 years ago then you are sorely mistaken. Nothing I say will convince you of that so - whatever. Don't ask me, just google the ACPA data on compensation competitors between WS 737 and AC A320.

This could be the end of good times at WS. That is a possibility. 20 years ago if I had speculated that one day there would be a hybrid Canadian/Air Canada livery - I would have been laughed out of the Flying Beaver.

Again, save the crucifixion until the variables play out. Waiting on a complete comp for Encore - hell waiting on what a schedule even looks like. Waiting on a mainline contract - it's up in May.

Who knows, I might end up on the Teacher/Mig band wagon. I think not, I hope not. Time will tell - sooner than later.

JJJ
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Mig29
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Re: Oh the sky keeps falling......

#60 Post by Mig29 » Sun Jan 13, 2013 9:54 am

cv990 wrote:
Mig29 wrote: Jazz had closer to 10 wide-bodies...
Um.......... we did? I've been part of the Jazz/Air BC family since 1990.. not sure what wide body a/c we had.....

757 isn't a wide body......and they weren't ours.....
haha man, we pilots are so observant about fine details....I know someone was gonna burn me on that line....I meant long haul stuff, should've specified better. And I know they were not Jazz's a/c, just said Jazz had them in the fleet. Cheers :wink:
jjj wrote:Again, save the crucifixion until the variables play out. Waiting on a complete comp for Encore - hell waiting on what a schedule even looks like. Waiting on a mainline contract - it's up in May.

Who knows, I might end up on the Teacher/Mig band wagon. I think not, I hope not. Time will tell - sooner than later.

JJJ
Fair enough JJJ, I respect your opinion.

And I would rather join in on your band wagon rather then you come here. Because if my prediction turns out to be true, we all lose.....I'd rather not for the sake of all of us!

Regards,
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