Georgian RJ's

[Bede]

This industry is a disaster. I'm just shaking my head.

[teacher]

SK, just like Jazz, are operating aircraft that were once flown at mainline

You referring to the 50 seat CRJ (the "little" Regional Jet) that Air Nova first signed letters of intent on before Air Canada ended up with them? Hell maybe AC should have been operating the 50 seat DH8's too.

I just can't sit here any more and listen to personal attacks on pilots at S.R.

I haven't seen any. If you see personal attacks I'm pretty sure you can inform the mods and they do their thing.

You forgot to mention Air BC's plan to expand into 737s and the 146s that were already being operated at the "regional level". Either way "ROCK"' if anybody "stole the RJs" it was AC. And it WAS AC that did it, not ACPA since AC NOT ACPA made the decision.

As for Thomas Cook it was never ACs business, aircraft or flights to have. Unless of course AC owned Thomas Cook and we didn't know about it.

The BIG difference between SKY and JAZZ is that Jazz was existing companies with existing employees having their companies bought, merged and sold. SKY is new, with new employees with the sole purpose of undercutting BOTH ACPA and ALPA represented pilots.

[Stinky]

Wow, it's actually happening.

Now the question is how many lay off on the nextbid. I'm thinking 200, any other guesses?

[navajo_jay]

and that's only pilots...F/A as well

[biatch]

None. Zero. Watch.

[TheStig]

Can any one here comment on how many aircraft are leaving the Jazz fleet? For that matter, are they being transferred? What's the timeline? Has anything been communicated to the pilot group?

Biatch, what makes you so confident in your assertion? From an outsiders perspective whats happening and where things are headed for the Jazz pilot group seems pretty obvious, and it doesn't look good.

[mbav8r]

I like your optimism biatch or maybe you mean because of the mass exodus of the FOs will not require layoffs.
How many FOs will work for food stamps to save their own skin, my guess, enough!

[rudder]

Can any one here comment on how many aircraft are leaving the Jazz fleet? For that matter, are they being transferred? What's the timeline? Has anything been communicated to the pilot group?

None.

To date, no minimum fleet or block hour guarantees have been modified within the AC CPA as a result of the 'regional diversification' initiative by AC. GGN/Regional 1 has announced that it will be responsible for securing aircraft to meet its increased flying obligations with AC. Obviously, daily utilization rates on the CRJ fleet are going to decrease. However, every reduction in block hours makes Jazz less and less efficient and CASM goes up and up. In addition, AC must make CHR whole for 100% of the gross margin payments equivalent to operating 367,000 block hours annually (which is above the minimum annual block hour guarantee by 36,000 hours). This is a conscious cost/benefit decision that AC has made.

Perhaps this is an intended result to be used against CHR in the next round of the benchmarking exercise which commences shortly and once again could result in a reduction in the markup rate that AC pays to CHR. AC wants a cheaper deal and is likely willing to go to great lengths to get it.

[TheStig]

This is a bad thing for all of our profession, and I don't want this to come across as offensive, but everything you've just said is simply a turtle sticking its head in its shell in hopes of protecting itself from a predator. The other analogy that comes to mind at this time, is the one about the frog in a boiling pot of water.It's important to understand what AC is in the process of doing here and what they are capable of achieving. As an ACPA member I've witnessed it firsthand, we've been both that turtle and frog.

Under CR's direction, AC has shown is has little regard for contracts deemed to be a burden on the airline. I hope that you don't view the block hour guarantee as any real, long term protection and this should be seen as much more of a threat to your career, than simply a negotiating tactic to decrease the CHR benchmark. I'll assume you read the "Report on Business" article about Canada's CEO of the year, the quote about "sharing our pain" comes to mind. AC has shown it's willing to work with its partners (to get what it wants) or put them out of business with complete indifference. Remember AVEOS?

[rudder]

This is a bad thing for all of our profession, and I don't want this to come across as offensive, but everything you've just said is simply a turtle sticking its head in its shell in hopes of protecting itself from a predator. The other analogy that comes to mind at this time, is the one about the frog in a boiling pot of water.It's important to understand what AC is in the process of doing here and what they are capable of achieving. As an ACPA member I've witnessed it firsthand, we've been both that turtle and frog.

Under CR's direction, AC has shown is has little regard for contracts deemed to be a burden on the airline. I hope that you don't view the block hour guarantee as any real, long term protection and this sound be seen as much more than a negotiating tactic to decrease the CHR benchmark. I'll assume you read the "Report on Business" article about Canada's CEO of the year, the quote about "sharing our pain" comes to mind, and this industry is controlled by executives that would have a more difficult time choosing a latte than deciding to put 10,000 employees out of work.

Remember AVEOS.

All true but the last time that I checked there were no examples in Canada where it was the pilot group running the company. These decisions emanate from the Executive suite or the BOD. If there are going to be changes in the terms of the commercial relationship between AC and CHR, then they will likely originate or at least require the concurrence and support of the corporation(s). Still, that should not prevent any otherwise enlightened pilot groups from perhaps working together to investigate and if possible propose superior operational and financial outcomes to those that appear to be in the offing. Management may have a toolbox but it does not always have the ability to create the optimum result (witness Rouge).

Pilot synergy has never happened yet in Canada but there is always hope.

[Heisenberg666]

Looks like GGN will be leasing 6 RJ-100s from AvMax. Can't say I'm personally too happy about this as it's bad for the industry overall, the pilots at GGN voted it down initially when 705 pay was first proposed. The second time the "union" took it out of the proposed contract, but it will now be brought in as a LOU to make it happen without the pilots agreement.

[rudder]

Looks like GGN will be leasing 6 RJ-100s from AvMax. Can't say I'm personally too happy about this as it's bad for the industry overall, the pilots at GGN voted it down initially when 705 pay was first proposed. The second time the "union" took it out of the proposed contract, but it will now be brought in as a LOU to make it happen without the pilots agreement.

Every other operator is scrapping CRJ100's and GGN/AC think that it is going to save $$ resurrecting them? Good luck. There is no money to be made flying 50 seat jets, particularly the oldest ones in existence. Why is it that CHR and AC worked so hard to get the former AC CRJ100's removed from the operating fleet only to put 6 similar dinosaurs back in service?

This whole RFP was about one thing - lowering the bar again for regional compensation. I presume that the GGN FA's will be making minimum wage. I'll bet the term of the CPA is just 3-5 years. And I'll bet the margin is just 5%. It creates another comparator tier II carrier to be used against CHR in any processes that are either contemplated or to be created to assist AC in reducing or mitigating its exposure to CHR via the CPA.

Game on.

[Cisbour]

Rudder, many folks at Jazz around me are still quite confident about the future, so does biatch on the same subject. Does this, in your opinion, has anything to do with a potential plane order CR is about to make that might include CSeries eventually or any bigger equipement down the road for CHR?
Should we expect to first wait for CR to reveal AC's fleet order that should be released anytime soon in December and then wait for Jazz's plan when the Jan bid comes out? Do you expect this bid to show future growth plans, or just reductions for the moment because it's too early to tell?

Lots of Q's, maybe no A's..
Thanks

[Obbie]

Denial in the face of obvious and eminent death.

Impressive and sad at the same.

Don't worry guys, Joe will be all right.

[Maxpwr]

Has it been said how many hours that flying adds up to? Or what base it could affect?

[Heisenberg666]

These planes will be based in YYZ

[mbav8r]

Heisenberg666,
Have you seen that anywhere?
AC already has an Eastern based Jazz competitor, GGN has a presence out West and many are guessing these will be based in YVR or YYC. GGN and R1 have maintenance bases across Canada and could quite literally set up anywhere.

[Stinky]

I didn't think it made a lot of sense to keep the Embraer 175's around just like it doesn't make much sense to put CRJ 100's back into service.
It seems it's being done just to build these companies up in preparation for something bigger. We all know that Air Canada can't just flip a switch in 2020 and replace Jazz, they need to build up to it, that's what's happening.
The union says we can't go below our minimum block guarantee so there is nothing to worry about, I'm not so sure. Maybe the short term financial pain of paying Jazz penalties for dropping below is a worthwhile investment if it means two competing, cheaper regionals are in a stronger position sooner. I'm sure those numbers have been thoroughly crunched.
I wish I had the same optimism as others with the whole theory of up-guaging our fleet to match our pay but I don't see where the incentive is for anybody other than us pilots. We're a unionized workforce with great pay and benefits, in this day and age that's any greedy CEO/shareholders's nightmare. The only thing they want is to gut our contract or get rid of us. If they need pilot's to fly 100+ seat aircraft there are still cheaper options then us.

Sorry for being such a pessimist, I hope I'm wrong.

[Heisenberg666]

Heisenberg666,
Have you seen that anywhere?
AC already has an Eastern based Jazz competitor, GGN has a presence out West and many are guessing these will be based in YVR or YYC. GGN and R1 have maintenance bases across Canada and could quite literally set up anywhere.

It's posted internally

[Stinky]

YVR makes sense, wasn't our last bid delayed because of the uncertainty of YVR?