Georgian RJ's

Discuss topics relating to Jazz Aviation LP.

Moderators: ahramin, sky's the limit, Sulako, North Shore

Message
Author
705dreamer
Rank 1
Rank 1
Posts: 32
Joined: Sat Feb 19, 2011 2:00 pm

Re: Georgian RJ's

#26 Post by 705dreamer » Thu Sep 26, 2013 7:02 pm

merlin wrote:Jazz is in an awful position no doubt. I'm thinking that more Jazz f/o's will be saying yes to Encore instead of no.

Reality is that there is still to many pilots in Canada and the USA. Simple supple and demand. You can blame Sky, Encore, AC or whoever but until they cant find pilots things wont change. Supple and demand always wins.
I am hoping that you are wrong Merlin. If the Jazz f/o's have any sense at all they will go to fly 703/704 again. Encore's despicable wage and working condition's should deter every pilot out there. Going back to the charter jobs offers much better money, schedule, and work less in a month.
---------- ADS -----------

peice
Rank 2
Rank 2
Posts: 59
Joined: Sun Aug 31, 2008 8:07 pm

Re: Georgian RJ's

#27 Post by peice » Fri Sep 27, 2013 3:54 am

tdp19 wrote:Peice, they could be trying anything but i heard that there management approached there pilot group in offered them $48,000, and $23,000 respectively to fly left seat rj and dash and right seat rj and dash. Apparently the pilot group declined, any ggn guys confirm this?
The GGN CBA was declined for many reasons but mainly due to the introduction of another payscale. Looking at the proposal they are going to pay captains $65/flight credit hour, with a 75 hour minimum guarantee and max 90 hours, with the FOs getting paid $32. As well as 10 GDOs per month.
---------- ADS -----------

JLA
Rank 2
Rank 2
Posts: 57
Joined: Sat Mar 23, 2013 1:53 pm

Re: Georgian RJ's

#28 Post by JLA » Fri Sep 27, 2013 5:51 am

This for a 1900 payscale? Just did the math, that's an awesome 29k at min 75 hours for FO's, I hope we're not talking about a Dash 8 or RJ payscale here...Please.
---------- ADS -----------

User avatar
Inverted2
Rank (9)
Rank (9)
Posts: 1905
Joined: Tue Mar 23, 2004 7:46 am
Location: Ontario

Re: Georgian RJ's

#29 Post by Inverted2 » Fri Sep 27, 2013 11:06 am

peice wrote:
tdp19 wrote:Peice, they could be trying anything but i heard that there management approached there pilot group in offered them $48,000, and $23,000 respectively to fly left seat rj and dash and right seat rj and dash. Apparently the pilot group declined, any ggn guys confirm this?
The GGN CBA was declined for many reasons but mainly due to the introduction of another payscale. Looking at the proposal they are going to pay captains $65/flight credit hour, with a 75 hour minimum guarantee and max 90 hours, with the FOs getting paid $32. As well as 10 GDOs per month.
Thats what I heard too. I guess the race to the bottom is complete.
---------- ADS -----------

bob99
Rank 1
Rank 1
Posts: 20
Joined: Fri Sep 27, 2013 12:12 pm

Re: Georgian RJ's

#30 Post by bob99 » Fri Sep 27, 2013 12:16 pm

JLA wrote:This for a 1900 payscale? Just did the math, that's an awesome 29k at min 75 hours for FO's, I hope we're not talking about a Dash 8 or RJ payscale here...Please.
705, my friend. The 704 proposal is even lower with the introduction of a c-scale (which was voted down). A whopping 27k and down to 9 days off a month for new FOs.

I believe the 705 pay scales are now not going to be included in the contract, and will be added in later when GGN actually starts to operate these things.
---------- ADS -----------

Mig29
Rank (9)
Rank (9)
Posts: 1212
Joined: Thu Aug 12, 2004 7:47 pm

Re: Georgian RJ's

#31 Post by Mig29 » Fri Sep 27, 2013 2:03 pm

tdp19 wrote:Peice, they could be trying anything but i heard that there management approached there pilot group in offered them $48,000, and $23,000 respectively to fly left seat rj and dash and right seat rj and dash. Apparently the pilot group declined, any ggn guys confirm this?

I can't believe they would even offer these pay rates (if this rumor is true)!?

That's less then 1900 pay scales from years ago!

I really hope GGN guys stand up for them selves and demand more for their hard work!
---------- ADS -----------

rxl
Rank 6
Rank 6
Posts: 451
Joined: Tue Jan 08, 2013 6:17 am
Location: Terminal 4

Re: Georgian RJ's

#32 Post by rxl » Fri Sep 27, 2013 6:24 pm

Good on the GGN negots team for saying NO to this BS!
We all need to stand up to this kind of garbage.
SR pilots ARE YOU LISTENING!!!
---------- ADS -----------

pilotidentity
Rank 3
Rank 3
Posts: 122
Joined: Fri Aug 28, 2009 12:00 am

Re: Georgian RJ's

#33 Post by pilotidentity » Sat Sep 28, 2013 11:43 pm

What a mess!!! Temporary (until the next wave is hired) Foreign Workers. The glory days are over in Canada with the government that is running (ruining) this country. AC has their support and is running with it. We need a change. Safety should be our main concern for the flying public and lowering wages attracts the less skilled in most cases. Can't blame the Execs at AC, they are doing what they are paid so much for.

Can we educate our family and friends on where this is all headed?
---------- ADS -----------

yycflyguy
Rank 10
Rank 10
Posts: 2579
Joined: Tue Feb 24, 2004 9:18 am

Re: Georgian RJ's

#34 Post by yycflyguy » Mon Sep 30, 2013 10:37 am

FWIW, any tier II or tier III under the Air Canada umbrella would have to conform to the ACPPA (Air Canada Public Participation Act) which says:

Under the proposed amendments, introduced by the Honourable Denis Lebel, Minister of Transport, Infrastructure and Communities, Air Canada's contracted carrier partners will be held directly accountable to the Commissioner of Official Languages and will be subject to recourse in the event of non-compliance under the Official Languages Act. In addition, ACE Aviation Holdings Inc., Air Canada's parent company, will be required to maintain its head office in the greater Montreal area and provide bilingual services to the public.

Air Canada has been subject to the Official Languages Act since 1969. Following Air Canada's privatization in 1988-1989, official languages obligations were imposed on Air Canada through the ACPPA in order to protect language rights for the Canadian public and the airline's employees.

Airlines carrying passengers and freight under contract with Air Canada on routes that are designated bilingual are currently subject to official languages obligations through their contractual relationship. The amendments will allow the Commissioner of Official Languages to investigate complaints about, and audit the performance of, these contracted carrier partners directly.


There are not too many US Regionals that can satisfy this requirement so their bids will only be used to put downward pressure on the Canadian tenders. Expect the flying to go to GGN or SKY.
---------- ADS -----------

Flaps 1
Rank 2
Rank 2
Posts: 72
Joined: Thu Aug 20, 2009 7:41 am

Re: Georgian RJ's

#35 Post by Flaps 1 » Mon Sep 30, 2013 12:09 pm

GGN can barely handle Rochester and Kingston, how are they going to handle more?? You gotta love the hate on everyone has for Jazz, and all they continue to do is provide value to air canada through an excellent on-time performance in a very safe and professional manner. The pilots make a decent wage with good working conditions but people are just chomping at the bit to see them fail....awesome.
---------- ADS -----------

yycflyguy
Rank 10
Rank 10
Posts: 2579
Joined: Tue Feb 24, 2004 9:18 am

Re: Georgian RJ's

#36 Post by yycflyguy » Mon Sep 30, 2013 12:14 pm

Flaps 1 wrote:GGN can barely handle Rochester and Kingston, how are they going to handle more?? You gotta love the hate on everyone has for Jazz, and all they continue to do is provide value to air canada through an excellent on-time performance in a very safe and professional manner. The pilots make a decent wage with good working conditions but people are just chomping at the bit to see them fail....awesome.
I haven't read anything like that in this thread. Quite the opposite. We all need to work together to stop the downward pressure on WAWCON at all levels.

The bean counters don't look at the performance of the lift. Only that costs could be reduced... however inconsequential in the big picture. Pilots could fly 100 hour months for free and it still wouldn't make or break the airline. There will be bonuses for those who ink a deal that saves money.
---------- ADS -----------

volez
Rank 3
Rank 3
Posts: 107
Joined: Wed Feb 28, 2007 8:33 am
Location: Somewhere over the rainbow

Re: Georgian RJ's

#37 Post by volez » Mon Sep 30, 2013 4:45 pm

I am getting more and more interested about that group of guys. Maybe that s a way to explore. What do you guys think of it ?

http://www.collegeofpilots.ca
---------- ADS -----------

rudder
Rank (9)
Rank (9)
Posts: 1551
Joined: Wed Mar 08, 2006 12:10 pm

Re: Georgian RJ's

#38 Post by rudder » Tue Oct 01, 2013 2:53 pm

atcflyer wrote:
rxl wrote:Good on the GGN negots team for saying NO to this BS!
We all need to stand up to this kind of garbage.
SR pilots ARE YOU LISTENING!!!
Actually our negotiators had nothing to do with it. They are pure pro-management and the transparency of that is startling. We the pilots stood up against this insult of a contract and I cohldnt be prouder of us. The fight's not over, as mentioned it will be brought back up after the contract is settled, but with close to 100% rejection from the pilot group, we'll be doing our part to try to keep the American style regional flying out of canada as long as we can. Of course I don't speak for all pilots here

The GGN pilots are at opposite ends of the spectrum with the SKY pilots when it comes to motives, character, and integrity as the SKY pilots are nothing but mercenaries who care only about their individual circumstances. The sooner that abomination disappears from the Canadian aviation landscape the better.

Lets hope that the REG1 pilots do not become the next SKY type pilots. Kudos to the GGN pilots for standing up and saying 'NO'. The pendulum can only swing back towards the positive when significant groups of pilots demonstrate to the corporate planners that pilot labour will not sell it's soul to fly an airplane.
---------- ADS -----------

Rumors
Rank 1
Rank 1
Posts: 47
Joined: Sun Aug 11, 2013 4:11 pm

Re: Georgian RJ's

#39 Post by Rumors » Tue Oct 01, 2013 8:29 pm

rudder wrote:
atcflyer wrote:
rxl wrote:Good on the GGN negots team for saying NO to this BS!
We all need to stand up to this kind of garbage.
SR pilots ARE YOU LISTENING!!!
Actually our negotiators had nothing to do with it. They are pure pro-management and the transparency of that is startling. We the pilots stood up against this insult of a contract and I cohldnt be prouder of us. The fight's not over, as mentioned it will be brought back up after the contract is settled, but with close to 100% rejection from the pilot group, we'll be doing our part to try to keep the American style regional flying out of canada as long as we can. Of course I don't speak for all pilots here

The GGN pilots are at opposite ends of the spectrum with the SKY pilots when it comes to motives, character, and integrity as the SKY pilots are nothing but mercenaries who care only about their individual circumstances. The sooner that abomination disappears from the Canadian aviation landscape the better.

Lets hope that the REG1 pilots do not become the next SKY type pilots. Kudos to the GGN pilots for standing up and saying 'NO'. The pendulum can only swing back towards the positive when significant groups of pilots demonstrate to the corporate planners that pilot labour will not sell it's soul to fly an airplane.
Do you really believe Sky Regional is an abomination?

Do you really think Sky is going anywhere anytime soon?

If anything wouldn't it make more sense to try and get them on board with the ACPA/ALPA agenda as opposed to excluding them?
---------- ADS -----------

User avatar
Black Cat
Rank 3
Rank 3
Posts: 128
Joined: Sun Feb 01, 2009 6:51 pm

Re: Georgian RJ's

#40 Post by Black Cat » Tue Oct 01, 2013 9:19 pm

volez wrote:I am getting more and more interested about that group of guys. Maybe that s a way to explore. What do you guys think of it ?

http://www.collegeofpilots.ca

Voles,

Unfortunately the C.O.P.'s have no in interest in wage issues. Myth busted. :(
---------- ADS -----------

rudder
Rank (9)
Rank (9)
Posts: 1551
Joined: Wed Mar 08, 2006 12:10 pm

Re: Georgian RJ's

#41 Post by rudder » Wed Oct 02, 2013 6:11 am

Rumors wrote:
Do you really believe Sky Regional is an abomination?

Do you really think Sky is going anywhere anytime soon?

If anything wouldn't it make more sense to try and get them on board with the ACPA/ALPA agenda as opposed to excluding them?
SKY is not a genuine company but rather a tool to create a lower metric comparator for the segment of the industry. Therefore the employees are just willing participants in that exercise. Many went there from ACPA/ALPA jobs so they have already demonstrated their lack of commitment to pilot solidarity and preferred interest in personal gain (at the expense of others).

As to whether SKY will be here for the long haul, that remains to be seen. Hopefully not.
---------- ADS -----------

Krimson
Rank 7
Rank 7
Posts: 585
Joined: Tue Apr 17, 2012 4:54 pm

Re: Georgian RJ's

#42 Post by Krimson » Wed Oct 02, 2013 9:33 am

My guess is they will be around for about 5 years until they merge/have an accident/are undercut.
---------- ADS -----------

ROCK
Rank 0
Rank 0
Posts: 9
Joined: Thu Jun 29, 2006 1:10 pm
Location: In the Fog

Re: Georgian RJ's

#43 Post by ROCK » Wed Oct 02, 2013 9:51 am

Rudder,

Not so true. No pilot has left ACPA to fly for SR. Some retired ACPA pilots have gone there, but that wont happen again since they can now stay at mainline.
As for your distaste for SR, I can understand. SK, just like Jazz, are operating aircraft that were once flown at mainline, and only doing so because you both said you would do it for less. How about ccaa, when Jazz purposed to do the 320 flying for Dash8 wages. Thomas Cook flying, same thing. I know it may be hard to look in the mirror, but there is no difference between Jazz and SR. Jazz has always been a regional airline, continuously tiring to under cut ACPA, now the same is happening to you and you decide to cry foul. Hypocrite....
---------- ADS -----------

rudder
Rank (9)
Rank (9)
Posts: 1551
Joined: Wed Mar 08, 2006 12:10 pm

Re: Georgian RJ's

#44 Post by rudder » Wed Oct 02, 2013 9:58 am

ROCK wrote:Rudder,

How about ccaa, when Jazz purposed to do the 320 flying for Dash8 wages. Thomas Cook flying, same thing. I know it may be hard to look in the mirror, but there is no difference between Jazz and SR. Jazz has always been a regional airline, continuously tiring to under cut ACPA, now the same is happening to you and you decide to cry foul. Hypocrite....
That is not accurate. ALPA never proposed to operate any Airbus product for AC.

And if you look at the separate hourly rates that Jazz use for regional and NB aircraft you will see that there is no undercutting going on. The same cannot be said for SKY.

Sorry, those are the facts.
---------- ADS -----------

Maxpwr
Rank 3
Rank 3
Posts: 182
Joined: Mon Sep 03, 2007 7:12 pm

Re: Georgian RJ's

#45 Post by Maxpwr » Wed Oct 02, 2013 2:07 pm

+1 Hypocrite

As if you weren't foaming at the mouth at the thought of operating the Embraers before S.R. was born. Not a day would go by that I didnt hear Jazz pilots say "we should do all the Air Canada domestic flying and let ACPA stick to the long haul routes."
---------- ADS -----------

Mig29
Rank (9)
Rank (9)
Posts: 1212
Joined: Thu Aug 12, 2004 7:47 pm

Re: Georgian RJ's

#46 Post by Mig29 » Wed Oct 02, 2013 3:36 pm

Maxpwr wrote:+1 Hypocrite

As if you weren't foaming at the mouth at the thought of operating the Embraers before S.R. was born. Not a day would go by that I didnt hear Jazz pilots say "we should do all the Air Canada domestic flying and let ACPA stick to the long haul routes."

So what option do you prefer knowing that AC wants to remove Embraers and shorthaul Airbus from the mainline fleet? Think of it worse of two evils....

A) give them to your closest partner who will operate them for around $125/hr with work rules and contract far superior to many airlines in Canada or US. Where pilots are treated humanly and actually earn a descent living.

Or

B) give them to a company or companies who will do it for half that wage with out even remotely comparable pilot contracts.
---------- ADS -----------

Mig29
Rank (9)
Rank (9)
Posts: 1212
Joined: Thu Aug 12, 2004 7:47 pm

Re: Georgian RJ's

#47 Post by Mig29 » Wed Oct 02, 2013 3:43 pm

If you want my honest opinion...i dont want to see anything leaving AC fleet to anyone below, because as long as AC pilots keep the benchmark pay level in our industry, other guys have something to shoot for in their respective airlines. BUT if you know that AC management WILL remove the fleet, slowly but surely, then I would want the planes to be operated by someone with a reasonable contract and pay then companies like Sky, Georgian or Pinnacle or whatever.....it's not that difficult to understand the logic if we all keep the emotions on the side and stop with personal attacks.
---------- ADS -----------

Maxpwr
Rank 3
Rank 3
Posts: 182
Joined: Mon Sep 03, 2007 7:12 pm

Re: Georgian RJ's

#48 Post by Maxpwr » Wed Oct 02, 2013 3:57 pm

Unfortunately (or maybe fortunately) those decisions don't fall on me...or any other pilot for that matter.

I just can't sit here any more and listen to personal attacks on pilots at S.R. Or Encore or whatever. Jazz pilots bitch about being given stink eye at the airport by AC pilots and now look who's giving the stink eye. I even heard of a SR pilot being physically accosted in the parking lot! Oh hell no! And if the moderators here continue to allow attacks, insults, slurs etc on any pilot group then I think they've failed at their jobs here. I have no problem with intelligent debate and comments but childish name calling while hiding behind a login is pathetic.
---------- ADS -----------

TrailerParkBoy
Rank 4
Rank 4
Posts: 205
Joined: Tue Apr 12, 2005 8:48 pm

Re: Georgian RJ's

#49 Post by TrailerParkBoy » Wed Oct 02, 2013 4:07 pm

ROCK wrote:Rudder,

Not so true. No pilot has left ACPA to fly for SR. Some retired ACPA pilots have gone there, but that wont happen again since they can now stay at mainline.
As for your distaste for SR, I can understand. SK, just like Jazz, are operating aircraft that were once flown at mainline, and only doing so because you both said you would do it for less. How about ccaa, when Jazz purposed to do the 320 flying for Dash8 wages. Thomas Cook flying, same thing. I know it may be hard to look in the mirror, but there is no difference between Jazz and SR. Jazz has always been a regional airline, continuously tiring to under cut ACPA, now the same is happening to you and you decide to cry foul. Hypocrite....

Just curious on how AC Rouge is any different then Jazz or SkyReg? Are they not flying the same aircraft for less $$, and less then mainline working conditions?

And about flying larger planes for Dash 8 wages...I know Jazz Dash 8 pilots that are making more then the nouveau Rouge pilots...just saying!
---------- ADS -----------

User avatar
Canoehead
Rank 8
Rank 8
Posts: 846
Joined: Wed Jan 05, 2005 11:08 pm
Location: YEE 220 @ 4

Re: Georgian RJ's

#50 Post by Canoehead » Wed Oct 02, 2013 8:50 pm

ROCK wrote: SK, just like Jazz, are operating aircraft that were once flown at mainline
You referring to the 50 seat CRJ (the "little" Regional Jet) that Air Nova first signed letters of intent on before Air Canada ended up with them? Hell maybe AC should have been operating the 50 seat DH8's too.

ROCK wrote:I know it may be hard to look in the mirror, but there is no difference between Jazz and SR
There is a huge difference between Jazz and SR. And Calin and Russ know it and will use this "tool" to turn our (yours and mine) livelihoods onto the gong-show that can be witnessed south of the border. The Colgan-type accident has been already been accounted for (just like it was for Continental), and the "Harper" government will let it happen. You are naive if you believe there is no difference.

Maxpwr wrote:I just can't sit here any more and listen to personal attacks on pilots at S.R.
I haven't seen any. If you see personal attacks I'm pretty sure you can inform the mods and they do their thing.
---------- ADS -----------

Post Reply

Return to “Jazz Aviation LP - Air Canada Express”