Georgian RJ's

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Bede
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Re: Georgian RJ's

#51 Post by Bede » Thu Oct 03, 2013 5:34 am

This industry is a disaster. I'm just shaking my head.
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Re: Georgian RJ's

#52 Post by teacher » Thu Oct 03, 2013 10:17 am

Canoehead wrote:
ROCK wrote: SK, just like Jazz, are operating aircraft that were once flown at mainline
You referring to the 50 seat CRJ (the "little" Regional Jet) that Air Nova first signed letters of intent on before Air Canada ended up with them? Hell maybe AC should have been operating the 50 seat DH8's too.

Maxpwr wrote:I just can't sit here any more and listen to personal attacks on pilots at S.R.
I haven't seen any. If you see personal attacks I'm pretty sure you can inform the mods and they do their thing.

You forgot to mention Air BC's plan to expand into 737s and the 146s that were already being operated at the "regional level". Either way "ROCK"' if anybody "stole the RJs" it was AC. And it WAS AC that did it, not ACPA since AC NOT ACPA made the decision.

As for Thomas Cook it was never ACs business, aircraft or flights to have. Unless of course AC owned Thomas Cook and we didn't know about it.

The BIG difference between SKY and JAZZ is that Jazz was existing companies with existing employees having their companies bought, merged and sold. SKY is new, with new employees with the sole purpose of undercutting BOTH ACPA and ALPA represented pilots.
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Re: Georgian RJ's

#53 Post by Stinky » Tue Dec 10, 2013 1:18 pm

Wow, it's actually happening.

Now the question is how many lay off on the nextbid. I'm thinking 200, any other guesses?
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Re: Georgian RJ's

#54 Post by navajo_jay » Tue Dec 10, 2013 1:23 pm

and that's only pilots...F/A as well
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Re: Georgian RJ's

#55 Post by biatch » Tue Dec 10, 2013 1:24 pm

None. Zero. Watch.
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Re: Georgian RJ's

#56 Post by TheStig » Tue Dec 10, 2013 2:15 pm

Can any one here comment on how many aircraft are leaving the Jazz fleet? For that matter, are they being transferred? What's the timeline? Has anything been communicated to the pilot group?

Biatch, what makes you so confident in your assertion? From an outsiders perspective whats happening and where things are headed for the Jazz pilot group seems pretty obvious, and it doesn't look good.
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Re: Georgian RJ's

#57 Post by mbav8r » Tue Dec 10, 2013 2:22 pm

I like your optimism biatch or maybe you mean because of the mass exodus of the FOs will not require layoffs.
How many FOs will work for food stamps to save their own skin, my guess, enough!
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Re: Georgian RJ's

#58 Post by rudder » Tue Dec 10, 2013 2:55 pm

TheStig wrote:Can any one here comment on how many aircraft are leaving the Jazz fleet? For that matter, are they being transferred? What's the timeline? Has anything been communicated to the pilot group?
None.

To date, no minimum fleet or block hour guarantees have been modified within the AC CPA as a result of the 'regional diversification' initiative by AC. GGN/Regional 1 has announced that it will be responsible for securing aircraft to meet its increased flying obligations with AC. Obviously, daily utilization rates on the CRJ fleet are going to decrease. However, every reduction in block hours makes Jazz less and less efficient and CASM goes up and up. In addition, AC must make CHR whole for 100% of the gross margin payments equivalent to operating 367,000 block hours annually (which is above the minimum annual block hour guarantee by 36,000 hours). This is a conscious cost/benefit decision that AC has made.

Perhaps this is an intended result to be used against CHR in the next round of the benchmarking exercise which commences shortly and once again could result in a reduction in the markup rate that AC pays to CHR. AC wants a cheaper deal and is likely willing to go to great lengths to get it.
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Re: Georgian RJ's

#59 Post by TheStig » Tue Dec 10, 2013 3:34 pm

This is a bad thing for all of our profession, and I don't want this to come across as offensive, but everything you've just said is simply a turtle sticking its head in its shell in hopes of protecting itself from a predator. The other analogy that comes to mind at this time, is the one about the frog in a boiling pot of water.It's important to understand what AC is in the process of doing here and what they are capable of achieving. As an ACPA member I've witnessed it firsthand, we've been both that turtle and frog.

Under CR's direction, AC has shown is has little regard for contracts deemed to be a burden on the airline. I hope that you don't view the block hour guarantee as any real, long term protection and this should be seen as much more of a threat to your career, than simply a negotiating tactic to decrease the CHR benchmark. I'll assume you read the "Report on Business" article about Canada's CEO of the year, the quote about "sharing our pain" comes to mind. AC has shown it's willing to work with its partners (to get what it wants) or put them out of business with complete indifference. Remember AVEOS?
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Re: Georgian RJ's

#60 Post by rudder » Tue Dec 10, 2013 3:45 pm

TheStig wrote:This is a bad thing for all of our profession, and I don't want this to come across as offensive, but everything you've just said is simply a turtle sticking its head in its shell in hopes of protecting itself from a predator. The other analogy that comes to mind at this time, is the one about the frog in a boiling pot of water.It's important to understand what AC is in the process of doing here and what they are capable of achieving. As an ACPA member I've witnessed it firsthand, we've been both that turtle and frog.

Under CR's direction, AC has shown is has little regard for contracts deemed to be a burden on the airline. I hope that you don't view the block hour guarantee as any real, long term protection and this sound be seen as much more than a negotiating tactic to decrease the CHR benchmark. I'll assume you read the "Report on Business" article about Canada's CEO of the year, the quote about "sharing our pain" comes to mind, and this industry is controlled by executives that would have a more difficult time choosing a latte than deciding to put 10,000 employees out of work.

Remember AVEOS.
All true but the last time that I checked there were no examples in Canada where it was the pilot group running the company. These decisions emanate from the Executive suite or the BOD. If there are going to be changes in the terms of the commercial relationship between AC and CHR, then they will likely originate or at least require the concurrence and support of the corporation(s). Still, that should not prevent any otherwise enlightened pilot groups from perhaps working together to investigate and if possible propose superior operational and financial outcomes to those that appear to be in the offing. Management may have a toolbox but it does not always have the ability to create the optimum result (witness Rouge).

Pilot synergy has never happened yet in Canada but there is always hope.
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Re: Georgian RJ's

#61 Post by Heisenberg666 » Tue Dec 10, 2013 7:14 pm

Looks like GGN will be leasing 6 RJ-100s from AvMax. Can't say I'm personally too happy about this as it's bad for the industry overall, the pilots at GGN voted it down initially when 705 pay was first proposed. The second time the "union" took it out of the proposed contract, but it will now be brought in as a LOU to make it happen without the pilots agreement.
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Re: Georgian RJ's

#62 Post by rudder » Tue Dec 10, 2013 7:34 pm

Heisenberg666 wrote:Looks like GGN will be leasing 6 RJ-100s from AvMax. Can't say I'm personally too happy about this as it's bad for the industry overall, the pilots at GGN voted it down initially when 705 pay was first proposed. The second time the "union" took it out of the proposed contract, but it will now be brought in as a LOU to make it happen without the pilots agreement.
Every other operator is scrapping CRJ100's and GGN/AC think that it is going to save $$ resurrecting them? Good luck. There is no money to be made flying 50 seat jets, particularly the oldest ones in existence. Why is it that CHR and AC worked so hard to get the former AC CRJ100's removed from the operating fleet only to put 6 similar dinosaurs back in service?

This whole RFP was about one thing - lowering the bar again for regional compensation. I presume that the GGN FA's will be making minimum wage. I'll bet the term of the CPA is just 3-5 years. And I'll bet the margin is just 5%. It creates another comparator tier II carrier to be used against CHR in any processes that are either contemplated or to be created to assist AC in reducing or mitigating its exposure to CHR via the CPA.

Game on.
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Re: Georgian RJ's

#63 Post by Cisbour » Tue Dec 10, 2013 7:49 pm

Rudder, many folks at Jazz around me are still quite confident about the future, so does biatch on the same subject. Does this, in your opinion, has anything to do with a potential plane order CR is about to make that might include CSeries eventually or any bigger equipement down the road for CHR?
Should we expect to first wait for CR to reveal AC's fleet order that should be released anytime soon in December and then wait for Jazz's plan when the Jan bid comes out? Do you expect this bid to show future growth plans, or just reductions for the moment because it's too early to tell?

Lots of Q's, maybe no A's..
Thanks
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Re: Georgian RJ's

#64 Post by Obbie » Tue Dec 10, 2013 10:52 pm

Denial in the face of obvious and eminent death.

Impressive and sad at the same.

Don't worry guys, Joe will be all right.
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Re: Georgian RJ's

#65 Post by Maxpwr » Wed Dec 11, 2013 6:19 am

Has it been said how many hours that flying adds up to? Or what base it could affect?
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Re: Georgian RJ's

#66 Post by Heisenberg666 » Wed Dec 11, 2013 7:03 am

These planes will be based in YYZ
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Re: Georgian RJ's

#67 Post by mbav8r » Wed Dec 11, 2013 8:14 am

Heisenberg666,
Have you seen that anywhere?
AC already has an Eastern based Jazz competitor, GGN has a presence out West and many are guessing these will be based in YVR or YYC. GGN and R1 have maintenance bases across Canada and could quite literally set up anywhere.
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Re: Georgian RJ's

#68 Post by Stinky » Wed Dec 11, 2013 8:21 am

I didn't think it made a lot of sense to keep the Embraer 175's around just like it doesn't make much sense to put CRJ 100's back into service.
It seems it's being done just to build these companies up in preparation for something bigger. We all know that Air Canada can't just flip a switch in 2020 and replace Jazz, they need to build up to it, that's what's happening.
The union says we can't go below our minimum block guarantee so there is nothing to worry about, I'm not so sure. Maybe the short term financial pain of paying Jazz penalties for dropping below is a worthwhile investment if it means two competing, cheaper regionals are in a stronger position sooner. I'm sure those numbers have been thoroughly crunched.
I wish I had the same optimism as others with the whole theory of up-guaging our fleet to match our pay but I don't see where the incentive is for anybody other than us pilots. We're a unionized workforce with great pay and benefits, in this day and age that's any greedy CEO/shareholders's nightmare. The only thing they want is to gut our contract or get rid of us. If they need pilot's to fly 100+ seat aircraft there are still cheaper options then us.

Sorry for being such a pessimist, I hope I'm wrong.
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Re: Georgian RJ's

#69 Post by Heisenberg666 » Wed Dec 11, 2013 8:34 am

mbav8r wrote:Heisenberg666,
Have you seen that anywhere?
AC already has an Eastern based Jazz competitor, GGN has a presence out West and many are guessing these will be based in YVR or YYC. GGN and R1 have maintenance bases across Canada and could quite literally set up anywhere.
It's posted internally
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Re: Georgian RJ's

#70 Post by Stinky » Wed Dec 11, 2013 8:36 am

YVR makes sense, wasn't our last bid delayed because of the uncertainty of YVR?
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Re: Georgian RJ's

#71 Post by mbav8r » Wed Dec 11, 2013 10:30 am

Oh, do you have a pay scale for them yet? If so care to share?
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Re: Georgian RJ's

#72 Post by Cisbour » Wed Dec 11, 2013 11:22 am

Last I heard it was 29k FO, 55k for captain..Now is there a flight credit hour pay like for Sky reg?
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Re: Georgian RJ's

#73 Post by mbav8r » Fri Dec 13, 2013 8:48 am

Yes, if you think your reps are not acting in your best interest, there are legal avenues. That is how ACPA was born, they didn't agree with the binding arbitration the MEC agreed to, so they decertified and formed a new union, ACPA, at least that's how I understand it. Anyone feel free to correct me if I'm wrong.
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Re: Georgian RJ's

#74 Post by std by » Fri Dec 13, 2013 11:42 am

The press releases are coming out one target at time. First part of the plan is Georgian, simple really. As for Jazz and AC mainline, both are going into contract negotiations over the next few years, jazz first, mainline second. I expect more bad news for both before the real plan. I think this is just the beginning of the total restructure of Air Canada, change sucks but it's the constant these days. Constantly being driven down, that is the constant. Jazz is around for sure for another 7 years in some form or another. I think they have great assets that are obvious to higher ups but the game is a foot. Fasten your seat belts..
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Re: Georgian RJ's

#75 Post by Localizer » Fri Dec 13, 2013 8:27 pm

Sorry, I don't rely on info off a public board delivered by posters with a combined total of 25 post. Amazing how may people with 3 - 8 post are on here.

With that said, I'll agree with other posters on the lack of synergy amongst pilots. I continue to urge everyone to join the CPPC, Black Cat, your correct they don't have a direct interest in wawcon but they do want to control licensing and standard which directly relates to supply and demand and that directly relates to wawcon. Have a little faith and join for all our collective sakes.

Cheers.
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