Form letter to the Jazz MEC

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chikiebella
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Re: Form letter to the Jazz MEC

#26 Post by chikiebella » Fri Nov 01, 2013 6:13 pm

Prop2jet,

I like the way you think! The RBC employees got themself respected. As for Teacher the long approach with the government would be the way to go if we would have to make them change the law.

But the problem here is that the law is already there they just ignored it.

The FLVC's are illegal. The foreign workers or pilots should have a social insurance number and pay taxes EI and CPP. The employer in this case Sunwing and Canjet should also pay their part of the cotisation to CPP and EI. These guys are paid offshore right now. What kind of society allow that to happened? What kind of union allow that to happened?

By closing our eyes on the violations and negotiating with them make us accomplice to a certain degree.

Since 2006 foreign pilots came and left on the same scheme every winters. On the reciprocity I am ok with that but it's not what's happening right now. The reality is ALPA and all the other unions failed miserably to address the problem and nothing has been done to stop this practice so far. As Canadians Pilots we have the responsibility to protect our profession.

How long do you think it will take for construction workers unions to kick foreign workers out?

It's sad that with us pilots we always take the good guy approach. We also always find one of us welling to sell us all to better themself. If it's not by selling the juniors by negociating a different pension plan or a "B" scale it's by preparing the landscape for a good job at TC... Lol.

It's really sad to watch that sometime.

I am close to half the list at AC it won't touch me. But I still care for my other brothers in the flight deck who might some day (like 2020 for instance) looking for a job and realized that the market is flooded by foreign pilots and they don't have a PPC on B737.

With all due respect!
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Re: Form letter to the Jazz MEC

#27 Post by chikiebella » Fri Nov 01, 2013 7:10 pm

teacher wrote:The RBC situation may have sped things up but ALPA had been dealing with this issue already for years. Those new rules were in par the ones negotiated by ALPA for many years as far as I've been told.

The slow pace of change is appalling I agree, but saying ALPA isn't doing anything is hugely incorrect.
Do you realized that you said it yourself ... The RBC employees they didn't work for years on it and they got result right away.

Maybe they got the right approach to their problem.

And they did that without a union.

Imagine with a union now...

It will takes years!

Lol

Ps: And it would also take a good chunk on their pay cheque.
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Re: Form letter to the Jazz MEC

#28 Post by teacher » Sat Nov 02, 2013 6:58 am

What I meant by my RBC comment is that the ground work had already been laid out by ALPA for the rule changes and the media spotlight sped the implementation.

As for FLVCs I must admit I am being swayed by all your arguments. I will now do what an ALPA member with concerns SHOULD do. Ask MY reps for an answer and move up the chain if need be to get it.

I will admit though that I am kinda surprised how little ALPA has said about his subject. Cargojet scabs a U.S. Airline with a few pilots and all hell breaks loose. We import a few hundred pilots and layoff Canadians and nothing is said. Again I was told there was a reason for this silence so a choose to believe my elected ALPA reps at this time but continue to question and push to make sure my best interests are being met.
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Re: Form letter to the Jazz MEC

#29 Post by Gilles Hudicourt » Sat Nov 02, 2013 9:19 am

I never said or insinuated that ALPA did nothing for the Foreign Pilot issue. Quite the contrary. When it came to fighting CIC, HRSDC and the CTA they did great.

However, I met a wall at ALPA when it came to fighting Transport Canada for it's role on this issue. And Transport played a major role in allowing thousands of foreign commercial pilots into cockpits the CARs did not allow them in.

1) ALPA was not willing to challenge TC on FLVCs
2) ALPA was not willing to challenge TC on foreign pilot flight time and duty time limitations. Foreign pilots flying for Canadian airlines with an FLVC (and thus a foreign licence) are still limited to their foreign licence limitations when flying in Canada: in the case of European pilots, 900 hours in a year, 13 hour duty day and many other such restrictions that are neither respected nor enforced by Transport Canada, and ALPA does not care or make an issue of it.
3) ALPA did not challenge TC on CAR 203 restrictions that say that pilots flying foreign registered aircraft under CAR 203 must be "employed by the lessee" when for several years Sunwing had foreign pilots employed by the lessor who were flying foreign registered aircraft under CAR 203. Transport Canada claims that when full time British Thomson pilots, paid by Thomson in the UK were in Canada flying UK registered aircraft registered to Thomson on behalf of Sunwing under CAR 203, the Thomson pilots were to be considered "contract employees of Sunwing" and not employees of Thomson and thus complied with CAR 203. I will believe in the tooth fairy before I believe that one.......
4) When last winter, Sunwing imported a Slovak registered wet-lease, although said company did not have a Canadian Foreign Air Operator's Certificate (CFAOC) as required by the CARs, ALPA did nothing.

There are many many angles under which the foreign pilot problem can be tackled. Whenever it concerns Transport Canada, ALPA is not present. Or if they are present, it is with secret letters like the March 20th letter, that we can only learn about through ATIP requests, if at all.

ALPA Canada seems to entertain a very special and close relationship with TC, one that will not allow it to antagonize or challenge Transport in any form or manner, even when TC shafts our profession on a grand scale, as is the case here.
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Re: Form letter to the Jazz MEC

#30 Post by rhythm101 » Sat Nov 02, 2013 10:18 am

I have often wondered why the companies - Air Canada, Westjet, etc - are not doing more to combat foreign pilots.

As for a pilots perspective, wouldn't the best, most efficient, cost effective and long term solution be to add our support to the College of Professional Pilots? With a College, no pilot could operate in Canada without being a member and - much like the medical profession - without passing Canadian exams and receiving a Canadian licence. Just one of the many benefits of taking control of our profession.
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Re: Form letter to the Jazz MEC

#31 Post by TrailerParkBoy » Sat Nov 02, 2013 12:13 pm

Great point rhythm101.

And for the fighting the TC issues about foreign pilots, why not get to the consumers. Why not let them know who might be at the controls of their Canadian purchased vacation?!?!

The majority of people traveling don't even know which airline will be taking them...I mean even people who buy tickets on Air Canada don't even know who or what Jazz is, and they have been flying the same passengers around for many decades!
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Re: Form letter to the Jazz MEC

#32 Post by teacher » Sat Nov 02, 2013 7:32 pm

Trailer, people will care until someone says the prices will go up and they'll fall silent, sad reality.
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Re: Form letter to the Jazz MEC

#33 Post by Old fella » Sat Nov 02, 2013 8:05 pm

TrailerParkBoy wrote:Great point rhythm101.

And for the fighting the TC issues about foreign pilots, why not get to the consumers. Why not let them know who might be at the controls of their Canadian purchased vacation?!?!

The majority of people traveling don't even know which airline will be taking them...I mean even people who buy tickets on Air Canada don't even know who or what Jazz is, and they have been flying the same passengers around for many decades!
Certainly your statement has merit. I for one didn't know the issue(s) at Sungwing, CanJet and AT et al on foreign pilots flying Canadian registered airplanes with Canadian vacationers out of Canadian airports when there are Canadian pilots available for these jobs. I think it would resonate with the general public even if they do not understand things aviation(a good many certainly do not).

It will be interesting to see later on with this new EU agreement what the labor mobility substance(if any) will be.
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Re: Form letter to the Jazz MEC

#34 Post by Black Cat » Mon Nov 04, 2013 9:57 am

I was the one who asked Gilles to put that letter in writting. He does not know me by anything other than my handle. Why would anyone want to be know by their real name with such venomous people around.

I asked Gilles to do this not because of the reasons you state but to make it easier for jazz pilots to ask ALPA "what's up with this", get some clarification on what Gilles is saying, And the reason they didn't support Gilles when others have.

Personally, I don't understand why ALPA would not support what Gilles is trying to do? Am I missing something? I want ALPA to know exactly what the issue I am asking about, is about. I don't know a pilot who is FOR foreign pilots working in canada. Why isn't our assosiation voicing this for us and supporting those who are trying?

Most importantly, ALPA has not issued any memo that I can find, it was NOT brought up at our last union meeting and the theme was national level proceedingss.

Thanks again Gilles


BC



PS "Beotch", I really hope your just a rouge pilot and not someone who is involved with my association. I am embarrassed to be associated with your toxic and unprofessional behavior...LOW, even for AvCanada. If you doubt I am a jazz pilot PM me your name and I will get back to you with the date of our most recent memo.
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Re: Form letter to the Jazz MEC

#35 Post by mbav8r » Mon Nov 04, 2013 12:11 pm

Black Cat,
No memo has been issued to address this meeting, however if you took part in the most recent "The Contact" on our ALPA site, you would've been able to voice your concern there. Someone did and there is a detailed response to it.
If you go there and click the link " the Contact", the answer to question 42 will address your concerns or at least clarify the Jazz MEC's position on the issue.
I've read through the letter posted by Gilles on your behalf and fail to see why you wanted this posted anonymously, if you have a concern you could always use the ask me button or call your local rep. In the last paragraph, it also almost reads like you're an elected LEC rep yourself, if so, are you afraid of being ousted from voicing your concern? I would be very disheartened to learn that elected reps can't voice their concerns or my concerns for that matter.
One last thing for now, if you want to reach more Jazz pilots you should share your opinion on the ALPA web boards as well, just my opinion.
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Re: Form letter to the Jazz MEC

#36 Post by Black Cat » Mon Nov 04, 2013 1:54 pm

Thanks, I'll go check that out MB.
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Re: Form letter to the Jazz MEC

#37 Post by Black Cat » Mon Nov 04, 2013 2:14 pm

Well that was a disappointment, same line I got when I asked my rep. A non answer. You would think if any pilot group would be ready to fight for jobs it would be us.
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Re: Form letter to the Jazz MEC

#38 Post by biatch » Mon Nov 04, 2013 2:38 pm

Enough of the childish name calling.
Bandaid
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Re: Form letter to the Jazz MEC

#39 Post by chikiebella » Mon Nov 04, 2013 10:06 pm

Black Cat I would like to thank you to come forward and to have the guts to expose your opinion on this forum. I have the deepest respect for you and your voice

These days I am reading a book about Albert Speer who was the architect of a very well known German leader mid 30’s to 1944.

Mr. Speer is doing a great job at not taking responsibility for his own actions into his autobiography but he clearly explained the course of action that lead Germany to solved the economic crises and to rebuilt itself to the country that later on destroyed an entire continent.

What he explained in his own biography shocked me and make’s me think the past few days.

In the mid 30’s that same German leader had a lot of initiative for is people and that made him very popular. He drove the country from a difficult economy post wartime to a fast track economic recovery with the construction of highways and buildings that made any other civilization envy.

There is no definite point were that leader changed to become the one who will later destroy Europe and Germany. The change was insidious and the power slowly corrupted the man responsible for that mess.

To use the words of Albert Speer :

“In the 30’s the politic line was so uniformed that it was impossible for Germans to expose their own ideas in public because of the uniformity of those same politic ideas.”

Fear to go against the party line…

On October 3rd I lived my biggest political defeat. I have to admit it’s been a life lesson.

The MEC chairs present were so well briefed and conquer that it was truly impossible to bring them new notions about FLVC’s and the way that TC is handling the situation.

It was a total defeat on the politic side but we won the battle of legal arguments without any dough.

The director of civil Aviation was invited to answer some questions after the presentation we did on the FLVC’s. I wish I had a camera to document that. Martin Eley of TC was not confortable with the situation and we clearly demonstrated that TC does not have any legal background to validate these licenses.

We are opened for debate. Debate and exchanges of opinions are good and democratic.

We have been as much transparent as it is possible to be. We have nothing to hide and we even shown the down side of our option during the presentation.

Our detractors attack the messenger because they can’t attack the message.

ACPA MEC was clear on the message they sent to ALPA. We are onboard…are you?

Now to talk about ALPA president he did a good job at putting all his weight to stop any actions toward the FLVC's.

Maybe its time for the grassroots to take the debate to a higher level and challenge their own MEC .

Ask questions and get involve but by all means please get informed.

Don’t be afraid to PM me with your phone number I will be happy to get a chat with any one of you … including you Biatch.

If you are not happy with your union representative answers please send the letter on this thread.

With respect and solidarity,

Michel
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Re: Form letter to the Jazz MEC

#40 Post by teacher » Wed Nov 06, 2013 3:41 pm

Check your emails for the latest AMES regarding this issue.
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Re: Form letter to the Jazz MEC

#41 Post by rudder » Thu Nov 07, 2013 9:20 am

Whether you agree or not, the ALPA National position seems pretty clear:

6 November 2013

Fellow ALPA Pilots,

There is much misinformation about ALPA’s position on the Foreign Licence Validation Certificate (FLVC) as it relates to the issue of foreign pilots operating in Canada, and I would like to set the record straight. Below are answers to some frequently asked questions regarding this issue.

What is an FLVC?

The Chicago Convention provides for the recognition of flight crew licences issued by any member state of the International Civil Aviation Organisation (ICAO) if the licence meets or exceeds ICAO standards.

When a state validates a foreign licence, it recognizes it as valid for use on aircraft of its own registry. The validation is only valid when used in conjunction with the supporting foreign licence. Most countries around the world have programs similar to Transport Canada’s FLVC.

What is ALPA’s position with respect to an FLVC?

Transport Canada is able to issue FLVCs for many purposes, including undergoing flight tests, to give a type rating on aircraft, to ferry aircraft, and even for some limited commercial purposes, just to name a few (reference CAR 421.07). As such, ALPA’s position is that FLVCs are legal—we have never stated they are illegal. In a March 20, 2013, letter to the Director General, Civil Aviation, we did, however, question the purpose for which an FLVC can be issued. ALPA does not agree with the Minister of Transport’s decision that it is in the public interest to issue them for normal airline operations (see below).

What is Transport Canada’s position on the purpose for which an FLVC can be issued?

The response that we have received from Transport Canada is that FLVCs are being issued to foreign pilots flying under these circumstances under CAR 421.07 (2)(j) “in the public interest.” The “public interest” test is a broad term and is not interpreted differently among the various government departments. In other words, if Citizenship and Immigration Canada (CIC) or Human Resources and Skills Development Canada (HRSDC) approves a work permit through their respective programs, then the public interest test has been met and Transport Canada will issue an FLVC. We do not like the answer, but we accept it.

So if we don’t like the answer, why aren’t we fighting it?

The Transport Minister issues the FLVCs in question based on his or her opinion that it is in the public interest. Because it is at the Minister’s discretion, ALPA believes a judicial review of the validity for issuance would apply the “reasonableness” standard, not whether it was correct. Thus, in our opinion, the ministerial decision would be accorded deference by the court. Therefore, the chances of success are very limited. The result of losing the court action would be that the current FLVC process would be enshrined in law. For these reasons, ALPA has decided not to pursue legal action.

Furthermore, winning the case, which is unlikely, would not solve the real issue, i.e., foreign pilots flying in Canada. Even if FLVCs were no longer issued, foreign pilots could still easily obtain a Canadian licence.

To get a Canadian licence, a foreign pilot must take a flight test (aircraft or simulator) and three written exams. Applicants for an FLVC already do a simulator ride to prove competency. So, the only additional thing they would have to do is write the three exams, which they can study for and write over a weekend. ALPA is also aware that many of the foreign pilots who have been working in Canada have already obtained a Canadian licence. Therefore, ALPA made a conscious decision to concentrate its efforts on stopping foreign workers at the border, not on the type of licence they held once already in the country. ALPA’s efforts have been fruitful as we have succeeded in affecting change to the three programs that allow foreign pilots to fly in Canada. For a summary, click here.

What about this “coalition” thing?

There has been a suggestion that all pilot groups in Canada form a coalition in order to address the FLVC issue. ALPA’s Canada Board was given a presentation promoting a coalition to fight the FLVC issue. At the same meeting, the Canada Board heard from Transport Canada’s Director General, Civil Aviation and ALPA’s Legal and Government Affairs departments. After listening to all, the Canada Board decided not to join the coalition, however we did agree to continue meeting with other Canadian pilot groups to discuss issues of mutual concern, including the foreign pilot file.

Didn’t the Air Canada Pilots Association (ACPA) vote to join a coalition to fight the FLVC?

ALPA does not speak for ACPA, nor have we received or seen any formal correspondence from them on this issue.

“ALPA doesn’t want to fight the FLVC because they don’t want to upset their relationship with government.”
Having access to government officials is paramount to have your voice heard. Without access, your voice is silent. Having a relationship with government officials helps get you that access, nothing more.

The decision not to file a legal challenge was based on the merits of the case. ALPA does not believe there is a case. One can assume that the government feels the same. Therefore, why waste each other’s time and resources—not to mention ALPA members’ dues money—on an issue that is doomed to fail?

What are ALPA’s next steps?

ALPA will continue to discuss the effectiveness of recent changes to the various programs that enable foreign pilots to work in Canada with the government departments that oversee these programs, and we will evaluate whether or not more changes are needed. On the FLVC issue, ALPA is currently in discussions with Transport Canada on possible modifications with respect to the use of FLVCs. ALPA is also awaiting a response from European Union representatives on questions pertaining to the reciprocity of FLVCs in Europe that we raised at the recent Canada/EU Joint Committee meeting. The Canada/EU Joint Committee meets on an annual basis to discuss the implementation of the Air Agreement that was negotiated in 2009.

Ensuring that qualified Canadian pilots benefit from Canadian aviation job opportunities remains ALPA’s top priority.
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Re: Form letter to the Jazz MEC

#42 Post by TrailerParkBoy » Thu Nov 07, 2013 10:01 am

Thanks for the post Rudder.
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Re: Form letter to the Jazz MEC

#43 Post by chikiebella » Thu Nov 07, 2013 5:47 pm

This is what we are dealing with gentlemen's… We got that memo two days ago.

Memo to Sunwing pilots:

SUBJECT: Foreign FCMs – Work Permits
=======================
Attention all Flight Crew Members
As of today, November 4, 2013, Sunwing has still not been granted the required work permits for our foreign colleagues. The Union has learned this afternoon that the company intends to begin line indoc training our foreign pilots in the next day or two. This information became known to the Union when several Flight Crew Members contacted the MEC to ask about the legality of the method that the company will be conducting such training. The MEC then contacted Sunwing Airlines President Mark Williams to obtain clarification.
The company has consequently informed us that each of the foreign pilots has been issued a letter by Sunwing’s immigration lawyer. The immigration lawyer has suggested that with this letter, the pilots are allowed to do training and certification in Canada without a work permit. The company has assured us that “line indoctrination” is part of their training.
Our Chief Pilot, Damian Cumiskey stated that because our foreign pilots have not yet received their work permits, they are only permitted to receive training (line indoc, line check). They cannot be considered to be working and therefore we need to have a fully qualified crew on board. This therefore requires a second Sunwing pilot to be part of the crew. However, the foreign pilot will be under training for the duration of the day and will occupy (in the case of a First Officer requiring training) the right seat.
These pilots entered Canada on Sunday with a letter (drafted by Sunwing’s Immigration lawyer) advising that they are here to complete their training. They will have a similar letter (also drafted by Sunwing’s lawyer) explaining that they are receiving training on their flights in the form of line indoctrination. This will allow them to re-enter Canada after their line indoc training flights.
In order to work in Canada after their training is completed (and once they have a work permit approval), they will have to exit and re-enter Canada in order to be allowed to work. In no circumstances will the foreign pilots do anything other than training duties prior to obtaining their work permits.
The Union would like to state that it has voiced its reservation with the company’s current plans and the company can and has made such decisions without the notifying the Union.
The Union hereby advises all Sunwing Flight Crew Members to perform the assigned line indoc flights as assigned. In the event that immigration officials question any of our working activities, Flight Crew Members are advised to answer all questions fully and truthfully. Should immigration officials have any issues with this Sunwing arrangement, any repercussions will be targeted toward the company.
Sincerely,
Master Executive Council
Unifor Local 7378
Sunwing Unit
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Re: Form letter to the Jazz MEC

#44 Post by Gilles Hudicourt » Thu Nov 07, 2013 10:45 pm

rudder wrote:Whether you agree or not, the ALPA National position seems pretty clear:

6 November 2013

Fellow ALPA Pilots,



I've been very busy with Simulator and personal stuff these past few days. I will try to comment that ALPA Fastread point by point tomorrow afternoon.

Gilles
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Re: Form letter to the Jazz MEC

#45 Post by Black Cat » Fri Nov 08, 2013 8:06 am

That was exactly what I was looking for from our union. Thanks to Capt Dan for the update, Gilles for his dedication, and rudder for posting the FR here.

BC.
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Re: Form letter to the Jazz MEC

#46 Post by BE20 Driver » Fri Nov 08, 2013 8:55 am

rudder wrote:Therefore, ALPA made a conscious decision to concentrate its efforts on stopping foreign workers at the border, not on the type of licence they held once already in the country. ...

Ensuring that qualified Canadian pilots benefit from Canadian aviation job opportunities remains ALPA’s top priority.
It still seems to me that this is the most likely avenue for success. Proving to HRDSC and CIC that there are a lot of qualified pilots willing to work at Sunwing who hold all of the requisite skills save the Type Rating and time on type.

I applied to my province for training last year. They actually said yes to sponsoring me however it took 4 months for them to say yes. By then, I had found other work which disqualified me from the training program. This was under the old system. I don't know about the new program (announced in the spring budget?) and whether we'll qualify or not. Perhaps we need to flood each province with requests for Type Ratings and prove that there are at least 200 of us who otherwise qualify.
Everyone got up in arms about 30 RBC employees because they ran to the media. People were threatening to close their accounts. There are over 6 times the number of jobs going to European pilots each year.
rudder wrote:ALPA’s efforts have been fruitful as we have succeeded in affecting change to the three programs that allow foreign pilots to fly in Canada. For a summary, click here.
Any chance you can post the link?
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Re: Form letter to the Jazz MEC

#47 Post by teacher » Fri Nov 08, 2013 11:50 am

Fight the battles you can win and where the outcome will benefit you and place your resources where they will be the most effective. Makes sense to me.

This may seem a little Star Trekie but it seems like ALPA has taken the emotional portion of this arguement out and focused on the logical "what can we actually achieve" mentality.
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