Renegotiating with Air Canada

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fish4life
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Renegotiating with Air Canada

#1 Post by fish4life » Thu Feb 27, 2014 3:48 pm

http://m.theglobeandmail.com/report-on- ... ice=mobile

Just wondering if this will have any big effect ? Is early negotiations seen as a good thing and positive sign of a longer term contract?
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Inverted2
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Re: Renegotiating with Air Canada

#2 Post by Inverted2 » Thu Feb 27, 2014 6:51 pm

Sounds like a good idea, but I don't think the "Shark"(CR) negotiates.
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Re: Renegotiating with Air Canada

#3 Post by Obbie » Thu Feb 27, 2014 8:18 pm

Come early, come late, it doesn't matter.
Jazz is about to take it up the ass.
But don't worry, Joe will be alright.
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Re: Renegotiating with Air Canada

#4 Post by Mach7 » Tue Mar 04, 2014 11:58 am

And this is how this works;

In our last contract negotiations we had the B757 carrot dangled in front of us and most of us grabbed it and ended up voting YES to a crappy the tentative agreement. (IMO)

Now, we have the future of Jazz looming as 2020 approaches...

Step 1;

We already have the "blog' from the Jazz COO telling us that we need to tighten our belts (not bad timing considering that contract negots are about to begin, and the Pilot bid comes out tomorrow, essentially moving people all over the country with the closure of Halifax base and massive reductions in YYZ and YVR).

The blog sites a mature labour force at the top of the pay scale and vacation allotment...(not sure about any other Jazz pilot...but I have been here for 28 years and capped at 16 year pay scale, (F/Os at 12), and although I do get the maximum allotment for vacation, the credit per day is below 3 hours, therefore I classify vacation and nothing more that guaranteed days off. Did I mention that we also work for 8 hours and only get paid for 4 during ground training events?).

Step 2;

JR and CR sit down and see how this situation can best suit both of them....lower costs for the CPA and concessions from the Jazz pilot group (again) thereby raising the share price for Chourus Aviation allowing JR and CR (and all of the rest of the Jazz management cronnies) to make sh*t loads of money (again), in exchange the Pilot group continue with a new concessionary contract that will see them fly more for less come 2020 and beyond.

Its the same cinderella story over and over again....Nothing more that "Pilot wage reset"...for everyone at any company

Having finished my 'rant' i will say that I feel i happily compensated for the work I do...i just get pissed when some exec making 70k per month is telling me I have to make less so they can make more.

So you can see a number of us are not overly elated that 'pandora's box" is about to be opened up. I have always felt the party would be over come 2020 anyway, and early re-negots for an extended CPA is not going to be good for the Jazz Pilot group as we will be forced to take concessions now for empty promises in the future.

IMHO
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Re: Renegotiating with Air Canada

#5 Post by teacher » Tue Mar 04, 2014 12:14 pm

Concessions for all than. If we need to match Sky Regional, Encore and Georgian than so do our executive team. I too am happy here and feel that I do pretty well. I along with many others will not entertain pay cuts while the executive suite maintains and increases theirs.

Just like at Air Canada when the employees took a rammed TA1 than CR gets a $5 million dollar bonus!?!? I don't think so. If we have to correct our wages than we ALL do.
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Re: Renegotiating with Air Canada

#6 Post by Dibbley » Tue Mar 04, 2014 2:26 pm

I'm watching all of this from a maintenance department perspective - these last two posts seem to mirror what I am hearing from my co-workers - concessions are going to be asked from all. The recent appearance of the 'blog' made me wonder as to why now are we suddenly getting this open discourse with one of the executives, when the tradition in the past has been quite the opposite. Interesting times these are.

Our group is having base information meetings quite soon to outline an operational plan going forward. From what I am hearing, the staffing reductions nationwide are to be minimal - for now. I fully expect that the other shoe will drop in the next several months when these rising star low cost operations get up to speed. In the meantime, I'll watch where they base their fleet and the pilot group that goes with them and try to figure out a plan for my own future.
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Re: Renegotiating with Air Canada

#7 Post by ourkid2000 » Sat Mar 08, 2014 2:08 pm

Jazz should just go out and buy Georgian, Skyregional, and EVAS.......Air Canada would freak.
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Re: Renegotiating with Air Canada

#8 Post by Mig29 » Sat Mar 08, 2014 5:12 pm

That would be great idea, if they would allow it...but AC is not stupid...they are running this entire show. Not much Jazz can do other then look for work outside of their AC scope.
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Re: Renegotiating with Air Canada

#9 Post by Gilles Hudicourt » Sat Mar 08, 2014 5:37 pm

Mig29 wrote:That would be great idea, if they would allow it...but AC is not stupid...they are running this entire show. Not much Jazz can do other then look for work outside of their AC scope.
Or become a competitor on the domestic scene, with its 130 aircraft, its 1300 pilots and no more scope clauses.........
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Re: Renegotiating with Air Canada

#10 Post by Mig29 » Sat Mar 08, 2014 6:22 pm

maybe...but to be honest Gilles, I'm a skeptic...I have this crazy idea that top managers at Jazz and AC are collaborating together trying to squeeze continuous concession from their respective employees every 4-5 years, by pining each of the groups against each other...

If AC really wanted a strategic partner to protect their regional market, they would then turn to Jazz and support, enhance it providing better tools to fight off the competition. Instead AC undermines Jazz, creates new tiers who fight each other instead and in turn provide lowest cost to AC. Problem is that these tiers will in few years not only become a threat to competitors and Jazz, but to the mainline as well....as it is the situation with Sky. Today they are biting a chunk of AC's Embraer fleet....maybe tomorrow someone will bite in the A320 fleet until eventually AC becomes a long haul carrier....

just my crazy 2 cents :rolleyes:
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Re: Renegotiating with Air Canada

#11 Post by ourkid2000 » Sat Mar 08, 2014 6:33 pm

Mig29 wrote:That would be great idea, if they would allow it...but AC is not stupid...they are running this entire show. Not much Jazz can do other then look for work outside of their AC scope.
They're not allowed?
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Re: Renegotiating with Air Canada

#12 Post by Gilles Hudicourt » Sat Mar 08, 2014 7:19 pm

Mig29 wrote:maybe...but to be honest Gilles, I'm a skeptic...I have this crazy idea that top managers at Jazz and AC are collaborating together trying to squeeze continuous concession from their respective employees every 4-5 years, by pining each of the groups against each other...

If AC really wanted a strategic partner to protect their regional market, they would then turn to Jazz and support, enhance it providing better tools to fight off the competition. Instead AC undermines Jazz, creates new tiers who fight each other instead and in turn provide lowest cost to AC. Problem is that these tiers will in few years not only become a threat to competitors and Jazz, but to the mainline as well....as it is the situation with Sky. Today they are biting a chunk of AC's Embraer fleet....maybe tomorrow someone will bite in the A320 fleet until eventually AC becomes a long haul carrier....

just my crazy 2 cents :rolleyes:
Is Jazz a real Corporation with investors and shareholders who want to see the company succeed and live on, or is it a fake shell corporation created and controlled by Air Canada who can decide to liquidate it the moment it thinks it can get a cheaper deal from other providers ? We will soon find out. If I was a major Jazz shareholder, I would be asking the CEO what his options are for an "after Air Canada" while the company is strong and able to morph into a real airline, not later on when it will be in a weakened state, short of cash and on the verge of bankruptcy.......

Unless of course there is more money to be made between now and 2020 than can ever be made afterwards.........
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Re: Renegotiating with Air Canada

#13 Post by ourkid2000 » Sun Mar 09, 2014 10:24 am

Well Jazz is a 100% public company......all that info about shareholders should be fairly easy to find.
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Re: Renegotiating with Air Canada

#14 Post by mbav8r » Sun Mar 09, 2014 2:02 pm

Jazz Aviation LP signs letter of intent with InteliSys Aviation Systems

The InteliSys amelia suite of products has two main offerings: ameliaRES and ameliaCARGO.
ameliaRES: A robust passenger service system complete with reservation, flight, fare, and inventory management. The system includes travel agent, public web, and call centre booking portals as well as a full departure control system (DCS). ameliaRES is a ticketless system with full interline e-ticketing capabilities.

Just saying!
They talk about Jazz ground handling services etc., but as far as I know the only ground handling we provide is for AC and possibly code share partners, they are already using a res system.
So I conclude Chorus is positioning to do some at risk flying or a plan B, should 2015 negots no go so well. Time will tell
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Re: Renegotiating with Air Canada

#15 Post by swervin » Sun Mar 09, 2014 11:25 pm

I think the deal with Intellisys was for the potential Purolator contract from what I understood.
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Re: Renegotiating with Air Canada

#16 Post by teacher » Mon Mar 10, 2014 10:30 am

From what I've been told Jazz has a reservation system in "warm storage" that can be activated if ever needed. I was told it would take approximately 30 days to be spooled up as a stand alone airline.

Having said that, everyone at Jazz I'm sure would prefer to continue the partnership with Air Canada.
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Re: Renegotiating with Air Canada

#17 Post by volez » Tue Apr 01, 2014 3:03 am

Hey guys,

So, it looks like the American eagle pilot group has finally rejected the American Airline agreement and as a result will lose the opportunity to fly bigger equipment and ultimately will likely shrink.

Do you think that the Jazz pilot group will be flexible enough not to go the same way if Air Canada comes up with a similar offer ? :?
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Re: Renegotiating with Air Canada

#18 Post by CanadianEh » Tue Apr 01, 2014 10:18 am

It's all part of the race to the bottom... which is why all pilots need to unite and say "NO!"

Pilots have lost so much ground in the last decade it's unbelievable. The RJ used to be a mainline aircraft paying mainline wages and now it's at Jazz where pilots are getting paid less to operate it than before and is on its way out to Georgian to be operated for even less!

It would be nice if we all stop undercutting each other for the same work. Until then, keep up the couponing and living in the basement of mom and dad's


Embarrassing.
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Re: Renegotiating with Air Canada

#19 Post by rudder » Tue Apr 01, 2014 12:23 pm

volez wrote:Hey guys,

So, it looks like the American eagle pilot group has finally rejected the American Airline agreement and as a result will lose the opportunity to fly bigger equipment and ultimately will likely shrink.

Do you think that the Jazz pilot group will be flexible enough not to go the same way if Air Canada comes up with a similar offer ? :?
Jazz pilots, AME's, and FA's all work on what is effectively 'status pay'. Any sub-100 seat airframe will be operated without having to reopen any of the CBA's. This means that Jazz/AC already know what the block hour cost savings would be vs mainline or in comparison to smaller or equivalent aircraft types that are already in operation at Jazz.

Jazz has been relegated to the role of 'regional airline'. But the definition of 'regional' is constantly changing. When the dust settles the smallest aircraft at AC will be a B737MAX (or A319/320 at Rouge until ultimately replaced by B737MAX). Dumbest mistake that AC could make is to add the C-series at the time that it is finally reducing equipment types in operation.
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Re: Renegotiating with Air Canada

#20 Post by Bajan Pilot » Tue Apr 01, 2014 2:47 pm

"The RJ used to be a mainline aircraft paying mainline wages"

You should do some research to find out as to how the RJ's came to be at the mainline.
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Re: Renegotiating with Air Canada

#21 Post by Gilles Hudicourt » Tue Apr 01, 2014 3:46 pm

rudder wrote:When the dust settles the smallest aircraft at AC will be a B737MAX (or A319/320 at Rouge until ultimately replaced by B737MAX). Dumbest mistake that AC could make is to add the C-series at the time that it is finally reducing equipment types in operation.
Just a few days ago, someone was telling me that when the dust really settles, AC will have nothing but 777 and 787, the rest going to Rouge, Georgian, Jazz, Sky etc......
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Re: Renegotiating with Air Canada

#22 Post by Fanblade » Tue Apr 01, 2014 8:54 pm

volez wrote:Hey guys,

So, it looks like the American eagle pilot group has finally rejected the American Airline agreement and as a result will lose the opportunity to fly bigger equipment and ultimately will likely shrink.

?
AMR has been much more aggressive with the Eagle pilots than “shrink". Behind the scenes They have been threatening to “Comair" them if they rejected the offer.

If they don't get refleeted they are eventually done.
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Re: Renegotiating with Air Canada

#23 Post by Fanblade » Tue Apr 01, 2014 9:01 pm

rudder wrote: When the dust settles the smallest aircraft at AC will be a B737MAX (or A319/320 at Rouge until ultimately replaced by B737MAX). Dumbest mistake that AC could make is to add the C-series at the time that it is finally reducing equipment types in operation.
I think the C-Series talk is just to get Boeing motivated. Rumour has it that AC has switched positions on which type will replace the first 20 190's that leave the fleet.

An NG operation, 25ish, may show up before the Max.

We all know what the root problem is. Dumping the 190.

This rumour coincides with hiring halted. Makes sense if AC is about to swap out 45 190's for 25-30 NG's sooner than later.

If a 100 seat aircraft were to operate outside of ACPA why would AC pick Jazz? According to KG when asked at a town hall, the 190 wouldn't be profitable at Jazz either. It's dispatch reliability is poor and getting worse. They seem to have a real hate on for the EMJ.

AC plans on following the United model or so they say. 130 seat 737's the smallest. 75 seat jets and Q's at the regionals. I suspect BBD will get an order in the end. Just not C-Series.
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Re: Renegotiating with Air Canada

#24 Post by rudder » Tue Apr 01, 2014 9:45 pm

Fanblade wrote:
I think the C-Series talk is just to get Boeing motivated. Rumour has it that AC has switched positions on which type will replace the first 20 190's that leave the fleet.

An NG operation, 25ish, may show up before the Max.

We all know what the root problem is. Dumping the 190.

This rumour coincides with hiring halted. Makes sense if AC is about to swap out 45 190's for 25-30 NG's sooner than later.

If a 100 seat aircraft were to operate outside of ACPA why would AC pick Jazz? According to KG when asked at a town hall, the 190 wouldn't be profitable at Jazz either. It's dispatch reliability is poor and getting worse. They seem to have a real hate on for the EMJ.

AC plans on following the United model or so they say. 130 seat 737's the smallest. 75 seat jets and Q's at the regionals. I suspect BBD will get an order in the end. Just not C-Series.
I believe that you have it mostly right. It makes perfect sense to spool up the 737 operation sooner rather than later by bridging with NG's prior to the MAX deliveries later in the decade.

Problem is that even though Boeing agreed to take 20 190's - AC is still stuck with 25 more. And they are owned not leased. If they cannot be resold or subleased (No luck so far. Tried that with the 175 and got nowhere) then they must be flown. I know that ACPA has already been reminded that AC has the right to park the 190's without replacement (if no layoffs), so it is clear that an attempt is being made at examining the possibility of placing the 190's at an Express carrier in exchange for other enhancements at AC (such as converting options on the 737 in to firm deliveries).

As for placing 190's at Jazz - it is a better deal for AC than continuing to operate the smaller and older aircraft that form the core of the current CPA.

I am certain that there is much more to come on this subject.
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Re: Renegotiating with Air Canada

#25 Post by Fanblade » Tue Apr 01, 2014 11:36 pm

Air Canada is growing in ASM's but shrinking in jobs. Air Canada has made it very clear that any NB purchase requires taking the 190's. I'm saying something likely is transpiring on this front for the other 25.

While it is true Air Canada all of a sudden wants to reopen the contract. The price to pull 100 seat aircraft from ACPA would be very steep. Considering they want larger and more aircraft at Rouge? Even steeper. Fixing the mainline surplus issue steeper yet.

Certainly 100 seat aircraft at Jazz would make them " cheaper". What was said at the town hall was not cheap enough. The 190's gone. Will not be in AC's fleet anywhere.

It is not like we are unaware of what JR probably proposed as a win win. So we have been asking. We are being told it is not in the cards.

I am getting the sense that Jazz is grasping at straws.
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