Renegotiating with Air Canada

[TrailerParkBoy]

There is NO flow through flow through agreement.

AC can hire who they want. Jazz pilots are no more special than anyone else.

One thing is a fact. You are regional pilots and this new TA enforces that.

You are also living in a fictitious world if you think you will be getting anything but cuts in your next negots.... Guess who you can thank for that?

WJ encore...

If you want to work at AC don't make the mistakes of the senior Jazz pilots jealous that a yr5 FO at AC makes more money than he does.

Just apply!

Goodluck.

Remember there is no way a flow through will happen. Sorry

Sounds like either the owner of ACPA talking or just another ignorant AC pilot who knows too much for his own good!

WestJet will swallow AC when they start moving into the east coast, because of this mentality!

Start to think outside your bubble!

[Radiocaster]

Hopefully our ALPA boys can hammer out a flow thru soon. What would you want to see in a flow thru agreement?

Personally I'd like to see:
-up to 5 years of service brought over for pay/ vacation purposes
-keep your jazz seniority number for pass travel
-seniority numbers given to all jazz pilots regardless of whether or not they flow over so that we will be ahead of new hires off the street to mainline if we do decide to stay at Jazz a couple extra years, no rush to go ASAP. Same as What Encore has.

That would be everybody's wet dream at Jazz. At the same time it would only fair for the majority. A flow trough to AC is an ALPA idea that has been proposed to Jazz in order to reduce cost. Jazz is listening and is talking of this with AC, but right now, everybody is turning the rubik cube to see how it could work. ACPA would have a veto on this so they would need to have no reason to oppose to it (ie :end tail).

Don't forget, in three to five years from now, companys in Canada ar all going to compete against each other to recruit pilots. My rough "guesstimate" is 2-3k over a relatively short period of time. If companys don't already look at this as an issue, they are already in troubble. A flow trough is a solution to reduce the amount of competitors for a same pool. We already see it in the states, guys get hired by multiple companys at the same time, but only show up at the ground school of the company that offer the best career prospect.

So I would not be surprised if ALPA comes to you in the next few month with a new TA for a long term contract, and career progression could be a part of it. As it is a Jazz problem, Jazz would have to defer some of the cost of a Jazz pilot flowing to AC. And right now they are balancing between this cost, the cost of VSP's, and the cost of simply keeping 1000 guys at top scale on the pay roll for the next 10 years.

[Fanblade]

Personally I'd like to see:
-up to 5 years of service brought over for pay/ vacation purposes
-keep your jazz seniority number for pass travel
-seniority numbers given to all jazz pilots regardless of whether or not they flow over so that we will be ahead of new hires off the street to mainline if we do decide to stay at Jazz a couple extra years, no rush to go ASAP. Same as What Encore has.

[/quote]

I'd like to see this work guys but you are over reaching with expectation IMO.

I've been at AC for 3 years now.

You guys are suggesting you flow through to the bottom but get paid more than me? Get paid twice as much as a new hire off the street at the same seniority level?

You guys are suggesting you get more vacation than me? Your not even on the property yet.

You guys are suggesting you keep all your pass travel? What about all the Jazz guys and Gals before you that had to start at zero? Why are you special?

ACPA is the bargaining agent. Any special terms would need to go through them. You know what they are going to say don't you?

Absolutely as long as it applies to everyone ( not sure how the pass thing would work tho)

I'm all for that by the way. But it means your negotiating for a lot of people and the cost exorbitant to AC. It's a good way to guarantee that there is no deal.

May I suggest you take Radiocaster's advise. Give ACPA no reason to veto the deal. Accept the new hire terms at AC. Rather focus on your own employer through some sort of incentive program from Jazz to flow through. Stop giving VSP's to people to retire. They are off the payroll soon enough. Target that money at younger guys at the top of the pay scale. You both have a vested interest in this. One is career path the other lower costs.

Personally I think a flow through is necessary in Jazz's case and AC knows this. Qualified pilots aren't exactly growing on trees. But Just taking a hatchet to something that has been around as long as Jazz is not enough. Average tenure needs to be reduced. This is in everyone best interest including AC's.

Hope you guys get a deal that works for you.

Oh yeah. If you do get something out if AC for all new hires? Thank you!

[GIVCE!]

And this, my friends, is why a "College of Pilots" or "global Solution" will NEVER work. Some one will have to GIVE UP SOMETHING for others to GET AHEAD. It would have to all be based on DOH in the INDUSTRY...not just ONE SPECIFIC company. ie: meaning ANYONE with 6years 'seniority' at West Jet could theoreticaly go to Air Canada and start at the SIX YEAR PAY SCALE. sure the 'junior guys/gals' with LESS than 6 years would scream bloody murder BUT you have accounted for THAT PILOTS EXPERIENCE OF SIX YEARS. That is how the PLUMBERS/ELCTRICIANS do it!!! ^$1!!!!

JAZZ AND AC are a STARTING POINT of conversation. what if it was a WEST JET/Transat flow through? a Transat/Cargo jet flow through? a SKY/Georgian flow through? a Sunwing/Air Canada flow through? would you be so arrogant as to think anyones YEARS OF SERVICE at these companies is worth NOTHING?????

Give your EGO a shake...I can screw up a taxi clearance with the best of the AC/WestJet/Sunwing/ Transat Pilots.....I can still laugh at myself. we are all HUMAN! NOBODY IS BETTER than ANYONE ELSE!!!! No matter what colour your cool-aid is!!!

shear arrogant views sometimes....sheesh.

sorry for all the CAPS...


again...THIS ATTITUDE IS PREVELENT AND IS WHY MUTAL RESPECT WILL NEVER HAPPEN!!!!!

what an abysmal position....Maybe one day I'll get to 'start over ' at 45...LOL

G

[teacher]

^ ^ ^ ^

[DH772]

I'm not going to get in a pissing match here, but before I reply just for clarity sake, in your "perfect" world does a guy with 6 years seniority take his pay only, or their pay and seniority?

On that note, why don't you guys start this up already? Show us how it is done? Why haven't you gone and set up flow with GGN and SKY? It must be a HECK of a lot easier to setup flow between 3 regionals, which in turn would make it an easier argument with AC to setup 1 flow through from all 3 companies that are already in agreement?

Please answer me why you have not done this yet or in the least why haven't you pursued this yet?
OH yes, that's why. Because it affects you in a negative manner where as a flow through with AC would double your salary!
Give your own head a shake before you come on here and insult the junior AC pilots that have taken a pay cut, drop their pension and seniority to further their careers when in turn that same person probably wouldn't want a junior GGN/SKY person ahead of them at Jazz.

I'm not saying the idea is stupid, I'm just saying your logic is hypocritical.

[Krimson]

I think that is a very stupid idea.

A national seniority list? Great. I'll get my license ASAP and then just sit and slack knowing all the rewards that are coming my way. I'll get first chance at any interviews before all my peers, and I'll just make sure I shave that day to make a good impression. I'll be rolling in the cash and not have to worry about a thing because I'll advance based on my license date.

It's not how it works. Free market means you can start up your own company and hire whoever you want and pay market wages. If you've done well and created an environment where people are lining up by the 100s to work there based on your conditions, great. But you're not entitled to anything.

Maybe your idea would have worked pre-1988, but not in the modern deregulated world.

[Calin Robandfistyou]

Numbers floating around on other threads I've heard is 750 pilots to be hired at mainline if the expansion goes as planned. So, will jazz pilots be overlooked by mainline during a possible hiring spree in an effort to maintain schedule at the regionals?
I remember during the last bout of hiring at mainline there were rumors of "only x amount of jazz guys per class" so as not to disrupt regional flights. Whether or not that's true I don't know, it would just really suck to a) not have a flow, and b) be overlooked/excluded for working at Jazz.

Plus, I believe training is a flow through cost to Air Canada, so it costs twice as much to hire a Jazz pilot than off the street as it would trigger two training events, someone correct me if I'm wrong.

[Fanblade]

And this, my friends, is why a "College of Pilots" or "global Solution" will NEVER work. Some one will have to GIVE UP SOMETHING for others to GET AHEAD.

Yup. That's the way the system works. Start over at the bottom at a new company. I didn't create it.

It would have to all be based on DOH in the INDUSTRY...not just ONE SPECIFIC company. ie: meaning ANYONE with 6years 'seniority' at West Jet could theoreticaly go to Air Canada and start at the SIX YEAR PAY SCALE. sure the 'junior guys/gals' with LESS than 6 years would scream bloody murder BUT you have accounted for THAT PILOTS EXPERIENCE OF SIX YEARS. That is how the PLUMBERS/ELCTRICIANS do it!!! ^$1!!!!

While that certainly has merit. That isn't the system in place.

JAZZ AND AC are a STARTING POINT of conversation. what if it was a WEST JET/Transat flow through? a Transat/Cargo jet flow through? a SKY/Georgian flow through? a Sunwing/Air Canada flow through? would you be so arrogant as to think anyones YEARS OF SERVICE at these companies is worth NOTHING?????

Of course that experience has value. But it isn't the system we have in place.

Give your EGO a shake...I can screw up a taxi clearance with the best of the AC/WestJet/Sunwing/ Transat Pilots.....I can still laugh at myself. we are all HUMAN! NOBODY IS BETTER than ANYONE ELSE!!!! No matter what colour your cool-aid is!!!

shear arrogant views sometimes....sheesh.

Arrogant? Where did I make any comment indicating I thought I was better than someone else? I like you, have to work within the system we are in. That's it. Nothing else. No emotion. It is simply what it is until it changes. If it ever changes.

again...THIS ATTITUDE IS PREVELENT AND IS WHY MUTAL RESPECT WILL NEVER HAPPEN!!!!!

what an abysmal position....Maybe one day I'll get to 'start over ' at 45...LOL

G

Hey. I'm not opposed to your way of thinking. But it is simply not the way our system currently works. Expecting it to work some other way all of a sudden.......????

I quit my good paying/lifestyle job living in the city I desired. I took a job at AC not even knowing where I would be based. The pay was less than half what I was making before. The vacation half and in the end had to move my family half way across this country. My wife found a new job but at less pay as well. Why? Because she was starting over as well. With the 60-70% drop in pay in the first year the debt has been piling up.

So why would any sane person do this to themselves?

Because that is the system that we work within. If you want it? It is what you have to do. I don't make the rules. I'd have loved to slide over to AC at 10 year pay.

With that said I agree with you. Our profession has a system in place that discounts experience. On top of that this industry is very volatile. The two mix together to place people in very poor positions. I could be next. There are no guarantees.

But until the system changes? It is our reality. Complaining about the system won't get you anywhere. Doing things to position yourself better within the system will.

In fact from my perspective the system is trending even worse. A new hire at Encore now has to start over at year 1 pay four times while progressing to mainline CA. Starting at year 1 has now found its way into the Rouge Captain spots as well.

[aV1aTOr]

And this, my friends, is why a "College of Pilots" or "global Solution" will NEVER work. Some one will have to GIVE UP SOMETHING for others to GET AHEAD. It would have to all be based on DOH in the INDUSTRY...not just ONE SPECIFIC company. ie: meaning ANYONE with 6years 'seniority' at West Jet could theoreticaly go to Air Canada and start at the SIX YEAR PAY SCALE. sure the 'junior guys/gals' with LESS than 6 years would scream bloody murder BUT you have accounted for THAT PILOTS EXPERIENCE OF SIX YEARS. That is how the PLUMBERS/ELCTRICIANS do it!!! ^$1!!!!

What a ridiculous comparison. A Westjet pilot jumping ship to Air Canada has to go through approximately 3 months of FOM, aircraft simulator, line in doc etc. to move from a WS 737 to an AC 320. Tens of thousands in training cost simply because the pilot decided he wants to switch things up and receive the same pay afterwards.
A plumber changing employers has to put on a different T shirt.

[aV1aTOr]

Hey. I'm not opposed to your way of thinking. But it is simply not the way our system currently works. Expecting it to work some other way all of a sudden.......????

I quit my good paying/lifestyle job living in the city I desired. I took a job at AC not even knowing where I would be based. The pay was less than half what I was making before. The vacation half and in the end had to move my family half way across this country. My wife found a new job but at less pay as well. Why? Because she was starting over as well. With the 60-70% drop in pay in the first year the debt has been piling up.

So why would any sane person do this to themselves?

Because that is the system that we work within. If you want it? It is what you have to do. I don't make the rules. I'd have loved to slide over to AC at 10 year pay.

With that said I agree with you. Our profession has a system in place that discounts experience. On top of that this industry is very volatile. The two mix together to place people in very poor positions. I could be next. There are no guarantees.

But until the system changes? It is our reality. Complaining about the system won't get you anywhere. Doing things to position yourself better within the system will.

In fact from my perspective the system is trending even worse. A new hire at Encore now has to start over at year 1 pay four times while progressing to mainline CA. Starting at year 1 has now found its way into the Rouge Captain spots as well.

+1 Fanblade. Well said. I also took the pay and lifestyle cut to move to AC. It was a start over, but knowing at the time how the system works it was a long-term minded decision that has payed off and will continue to do so.
You know the saying, "Don't Cry. Apply."

[rudder]

Rudder,
A Jazz Captain would have to work a ridiculous amount of overtime to make $150k a year. The top scale pay rate right now is $120/hr which based on an average of 82.5 hours a month equals about $120k a year

Lots of Jazz top scale CAPT making $150K. But yes - that involves overtime, or training duties, or CCP A duties.

It is no different than SW/WJ CAPT making $250K+ or Rouge pilots making much more than their counterparts at mainline on the 319/767. Incentivized overtime and overtime opportunities create circumstances that allow pilots on an individual basis to augment their annual income. And in return, the company gets better productivity metrics and improved operational performance.

This is the direction that most successful (and profitable) carriers are moving.

[Told Card Writer]

It's all part of the race to the bottom... which is why all pilots need to unite and say "NO!"

Pilots have lost so much ground in the last decade it's unbelievable. The RJ used to be a mainline aircraft paying mainline wages and now it's at Jazz where pilots are getting paid less to operate it than before and is on its way out to Georgian to be operated for even less!

It would be nice if we all stop undercutting each other for the same work. Until then, keep up the couponing and living in the basement of mom and dad's


Embarrassing.

AC might be looking at the bottom dollar. They haven't looked at what they are getting though for paying less. The old saying "you get what you pay for" says it all. AC isn't charging less as well for the flights that got switched over. If I was paying business class or superelite fares and AC put me on some of these replacements companies, I would completely loose it on AC. There is no way a passenger is getting the same level of service. The replacements RJ's are old and look like crap compared to Jazz, everyone dumped these planes for a reason. As well everyone knows that the corporate culture at the replacements aren't to 705 standards.

The public needs to wakeup and be shown what is going on here. They are not getting what they pay for and AC can't be trusted to look out for the customers best interests if they are profiting from it.

[Krimson]

The majority of the public are not buying business class tickets. The majority want the cheapest seat possible, and are willing to pay less to sit on GGNs RJs complaining the whole way about how lousy the service is. The market drives AC just as any corporation.

[Stinky]

When someone gets on an RJ they're usually disappointed regardless of whether or not it belongs to Jazz or someone else. The travelling public usually doesn't know the difference. I'm sure the average joe would prefer being on a Georgian RJ than a Jazz DH8-100. Trying to sell the idea of better service with Jazz doesn't really work when more than half the fleet should be renewed. Maybe that's in the works now, it's definitely long overdue.

[av8ts]

Didn't Jazz pilots turn down bol at AC last time it was offered? Just imagine, everyone would be airbus Capts. now

[teacher]

Didn't the Air Canada pilots ignore an arbitrated settlement?

[rudder]

Didn't Jazz pilots turn down bol at AC last time it was offered? Just imagine, everyone would be airbus Capts. now

Hollis Harris testified that he would not accept a list - any list. BOTL/Picher, whatever. That was a mainstay in the argument submitted by the AC pilots in the civil litigation defence.

There was an opportunity during CCAA where a merged list could have been made part of the final restructuring plan. Not sure how that would have affected the subsidiary spin off agenda but there was a window of opportunity that closed as the parties could not resolve aircraft allocation issues. The list itself was BOTL.

I have lost track of the number of times that the two pilot groups could have implemented a merged list solution but came up short. I highly doubt that the opportunity will ever present itself again. Even WJ/WJE have acknowledged the necessity to avoid competing labour forces and have effectively chosen a single list solution. I suspect that with the recently ratified TA that ACPA believe they have built solid walls around ACE and that single list solutions are unnecessary and unwarranted.

The only fly in the ointment would be if AC were to ever reacquire ownership and control of Jazz.

[Fanblade]

a window of opportunity that closed as the parties could not resolve aircraft allocation issues. The list itself was BOTL.

Rudder,

Interesting comment. I take from this comment the dispute was about WHERE BOTL started? Is that assumption correct?

So where did the jazz version of BOTL start? 50 seats? 75 seats? 90 seats? 110 seats? Below a 175?below a 190? Everything below a 319?

Or was ACPA the problem. Were they attempting to recapture crj100/200's on their list?

Seriously I would like to know what the hang up was. Both sides point at each other for blame.

If Jazz was seeking BOTL, but attempting to include an aircraft on the Jazz side of the list, that based on ACPA's scope language belonged on the AC side? It's not hard at all to see why the issue came to impasse. The reverse is also true. If ACPA was attempting to BOTL the Jazz pilots on aircraft no longer belonging to ACPA pilots? Again easy to see the problem.

The reason I ask is this. Your comment sounds eerily close to the rumours floating around in the recent past. BOTL but we get DOH access to aircraft up to xx size.

Am I anywhere close to the cause of impasse over the years? To simply state we agreed on BOTL but couldn't make it work makes absolutely no sense to those of us not around then. There must be a piece of this puzzle we are missing.

Is this it?

If it is it? Who was trying to capture DOH on aircraft not belonging to them?

[rudder]

Mutual end tail.

No Jazz pilot ahead of any AC pilot on mainline equipment.

No AC pilot ahead of any Jazz pilot on CPA equipment.

Minor disagreement on allocation of remaining 75 seat jets.

No final deal. No approval from respective MEC's although I believe that the Jazz MEC had approved the agreement in principle if not final detail.

All water under the bridge.