Renegotiating with Air Canada

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DH772
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Re: Renegotiating with Air Canada

#101 Post by DH772 » Tue May 20, 2014 4:15 pm

So teacher, you will walk off job if you're forced into concessions next contract?

Also, how is one list any help to AC pilots? It's not. I see more harm then good.

Why don't you make a merge happen with GGN, take massive pay cuts, screw over bottom guys at Jazz and then maybe you'd see how one list is very 1 sided.
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Re: Renegotiating with Air Canada

#102 Post by DH772 » Wed May 21, 2014 1:46 am

I charge what I am worth for my services. Never apologize for your fees, billing for your time or for what you are worth.
BS man. It's all about supply and demand. Your little friends there have TONS of options of where they work. ALL over the world if they want. And any job they step into has about equal pay.

Ask your engineer friend how well that logic works if there were only say 3-4 major companies he would work at to get lifestyle/pay he wants. Good luck with that moto of yours.

If they quit their job tomorrow they can walk next door to another company and get paid more. Let's see him try quit his job, spend 6 months unemployed, go work for a worse employer and start at the bottom of his profession.

Maybe if Canada had thousands of airlines across the country it would be a different story.
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Re: Renegotiating with Air Canada

#103 Post by Localizer » Thu May 22, 2014 11:27 am

Resepectfully DH772, but if you don't see the potential benefit to one list, then you are blind my friend, the current landscape has proven the need, and imo the benefits out weight the short term pain. If you need an example of short sighted thinking and personal greed then look no further then the AO/AC law suit, both sides are at fault but that's not the issue I'm trying to raise, had the AO pilots accepted BOTL at the time most if not all would more than likely be heavy Capt's at this point in their career, nobody wanted to look down the road.

Lets skip forward to today .. Sky Regional operating AC air frame's, higher paying AC jobs are now low cost Rouge jobs, Rouge is looking to expand its range of operation .. GGN operating CRJ's .. Nip nip nip .. its not going to stop! AC, Jazz, SkR, GGN .. all on one list .. that's the beginning of change .. look down the road!

Cheers.
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Re: Renegotiating with Air Canada

#104 Post by tdp19 » Thu May 22, 2014 11:56 am

Localizer wrote:Resepectfully DH772, but if you don't see the potential benefit to one list, then you are blind my friend, the current landscape has proven the need, and imo the benefits out weight the short term pain. If you need an example of short sighted thinking and personal greed then look no further then the AO/AC law suit, both sides are at fault but that's not the issue I'm trying to raise, had the AO pilots accepted BOTL at the time most if not all would more than likely be heavy Capt's at this point in their career, nobody wanted to look down the road.

Lets skip forward to today .. Sky Regional operating AC air frame's, higher paying AC jobs are now low cost Rouge jobs, Rouge is looking to expand its range of operation .. GGN operating CRJ's .. Nip nip nip .. its not going to stop! AC, Jazz, SkR, GGN .. all on one list .. that's the beginning of change .. look down the road!

Cheers.
I realistically do not see ACPA ever agreeing to this, but hey I have been wrong before. How do you suggest we merge lists? AC Pilots, then DOH for all the regionals after that? DOH for everyone (never see that one happening) or AC Pilots, then Jazz Pilots and NO GGN or SKY included?
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Re: Renegotiating with Air Canada

#105 Post by Localizer » Thu May 22, 2014 12:19 pm

As you said .. AC pilots wouldn't go for a DOH list as history has already shown .. I would agree to all regionals merge list by DOH and be added to the bottom of the AC list, ALPA code of ethics insist we merge by DOH and I would not oppose that.
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Re: Renegotiating with Air Canada

#106 Post by tdp19 » Thu May 22, 2014 6:11 pm

Localizer wrote:As you said .. AC pilots wouldn't go for a DOH list as history has already shown .. I would agree to all regionals merge list by DOH and be added to the bottom of the AC list, ALPA code of ethics insist we merge by DOH and I would not oppose that.
Well thats good for the guys at Jazz with 4+ years seniority because they will be above all of the SKY Pilots and most of the GGN pilots, in my opinion its a raw deal for the 4 years and under at Jazz. I also see Jazz as a step up from GGN and SKY in terms of working conditions and pay and don't feel like DOH is fair in that regard.
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Re: Renegotiating with Air Canada

#107 Post by Fanblade » Sat May 24, 2014 2:17 pm

http://www.bnn.ca/News/2014/5/22/WestJe ... James.aspx

As an example, Raymond James says the price of an advance ticket from Vancouver to Fort St. John, BC has fallen by as much as 70 percent in the two years since Encore entered the market. While traffic on the route has increased 400 percent. According to Cherniavsky calculations, Air Canada's post-Encore revenue on the Vancouver-Fort St. John route declined by about $8 million (17 percent).

Actual analysis below. Yes It is only a guess at the revenue drop that will take place on routes as Encore expands. Trying to compare the change on YVR-YSJ and use it to predict YYZ-YSB isn't going to be completely accurate. What it does though is show the problem for what it is.

https://raymondjames.bluematrix.com/sel ... ource=mail

Loc,

Encore is WJ 18 years ago. In the case of WJ, 2 companies, all their major competition, went bankrupt within 7 years. Or about 4-5 years after reaching critical mass. The first one to fail was Canadian within 3 years, as WJ started in their back yard. As WJ moved east AC was next. Yes SARS and 911 helped. But the biggest problem was simply operating at a loss. The introduction of a much lower cost structure was a game changer for everyone. You could add to the failure list C3000, Canjet, Jetsgo, Royal.

WJ's cost structure was the catalyst in the industry that redesigned the entire country. Encore is doing exactly the same thing today in the regional market. As they reach critical mass everyone will feel the pain. And everyone will respond or fail.

This is AC's problem. It has now become your problem. AC will do whatever it takes to compete with Encore. No one is going to be able to protect wages and working conditions at CPA Carriers. To have done that would have required vision years ago and would have required the WJ pilots to be on board.

Now that they have it, AC will never release its ability to contract out. They won't because they can't. Why? Because they can't compete without it.

Realitychex's comments from over a year and a half ago are worth a re read. Middle of page 8 to about 11. Don't read any other posts. Just his. He is spot on.

http://www.avcanada.ca/forums2/viewtopi ... &start=175
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Re: Renegotiating with Air Canada

#108 Post by DH772 » Wed May 28, 2014 12:45 pm

You're right. I do not see the benefit of one list. How would merging to one list have any effect on pay? Call me naive but just because you are under one list, won't change your pay. Need proof, look at Rouge. They are all ACPA pilots, are they therefore paid the same? Do they have more power/leverage? yes possibly. But again, how does one list secure higher paying jobs at AC and prevent AC from outsourcing more airplanes?

I don't mean any offense by this comment since everyone has their own lifestyle wishes/career paths but majority of people who left smaller companies and regional went to AC for that exact reason. Whether it be higher pay or bigger equipment, or better destinations. Vice versa with people at other companies. So why would the majority of AC pilots want to step back?
Would you like to step off your nice Q400 and go back to hand flying a 1900? Not unless you got paid 120k I'd imagine. how does it prevent AC from giving more flying to GGN and SKY and taking away from Jazz?

SO yes, call me shortsighted but one list isn't going to stop AC from sending them planes to SKY and paying their pilots less. Nor is it going to stop them from starting up another regional.
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Re: Renegotiating with Air Canada

#109 Post by airway » Wed May 28, 2014 1:55 pm

Localizer wrote: had the AO pilots accepted BOTL at the time most if not all would more than likely be heavy Capt's at this point in their career, nobody wanted to look down the road.

Lets skip forward to today .. Sky Regional operating AC air frame's, higher paying AC jobs are now low cost Rouge jobs, Rouge is looking to expand its range of operation .. GGN operating CRJ's .. Nip nip nip .. its not going to stop! AC, Jazz, SkR, GGN .. all on one list .. that's the beginning of change .. look down the road!
I agree that it would be good for the pilot group for all 4 companies to have one list, but in order to do that you are going to have to have an agreement between 8 separate entities. The 4 pilot groups and the management of 4 separate companies.

I think that after lengthy negotiations, (maybe a few years) the 4 pilot groups could come to an agreement, but the problem will be getting the companies to agree.

From what I recall, during the AC/AO lawsuit, the AC Executives stated that they would never agree to merged pilot list as the logistics of managing a list of pilots from 2 separate companies would be extremely difficult.

Does anyone have any examples of 2 independent airlines with one pilot list. Or even one from another industry?
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Re: Renegotiating with Air Canada

#110 Post by Localizer » Wed May 28, 2014 9:27 pm

Lets put it this way ... If we can't get the companies on board then so be it .. but they can't stop us from being under the same umbrella .. maybe its time to resurrect CALPA. One union.
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Re: Renegotiating with Air Canada

#111 Post by Stinky » Wed May 28, 2014 10:31 pm

Many of the regionals in the U.S. undercutting one another are ALPA members, it doesn't stop them from bidding against one another.
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Re: Renegotiating with Air Canada

#112 Post by Big Pistons Forever » Wed May 28, 2014 10:57 pm

Business theory 101: WAWCONS will continue to decrease as long as a the supply of workers remains. Eventually wages will be so low there will be insufficient numbers willing to work at what is offered. At that point the usually strategy is to move production to a lower cost location.

We are already seeing this in the majors with code sharing and now several operators are attempting to set up low cost offshore airlines, the Irish example being the first true attempt to offshore piloting at a national airline.

The airline industry is not immune to the larger global trends and so to me it seems obvious that the globalization of airline operations with pilots sourced from the lowest cost countries will be the end state.

In the context of the regional airlines the obvious move is to increase the use of US lift. This is already happening but ironically the new requirement for ATP copilots has totally dried up the endless supply of 250 hr wannabe's with SJS that will work for almost nothing. This move which was rammed down the industry throats by US Federal politicians has instantly restored a huge amount of bargaining power to pilots.

I bet Canadian operators are already looking at how they can leverage poverty wages to 250 hr wonders into a competitive advantage. :roll:
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Re: Renegotiating with Air Canada

#113 Post by Localizer » Thu May 29, 2014 12:05 am

Holy shit this board is depressing .. the only direction anyone wants to take is the one we're going .. down. Its like being in a car heading toward a cement wall .. you know you need to turn but your to lazy to do it.
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Re: Renegotiating with Air Canada

#114 Post by Fanblade » Thu May 29, 2014 4:07 am

Localizer wrote:Holy shit this board is depressing .. the only direction anyone wants to take is the one we're going .. down. Its like being in a car heading toward a cement wall .. you know you need to turn but your to lazy to do it.
I don't think you have it right. I think many people are realizing that the time to take care of this passed us years ago. We had control. We nolonger do. Regaining control would be a monumental task which would require the support of every single pilot group AC competes with in the regional market. WJ UA AA DL AC

Every single one of those pilot groups would need to force an increase in regional WAWCON, up to the Jazz level, on their respective employer. Every CEO wants the lowest common denominator. They all want an advantage. They all want what ever a competitor has. They want it to stay competitive. AC included.
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Re: Renegotiating with Air Canada

#115 Post by Fanblade » Thu May 29, 2014 4:09 am

Dup
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Re: Renegotiating with Air Canada

#116 Post by Localizer » Thu May 29, 2014 10:31 am

Respectfully Fanblade, I think I do have it right .. it sounds like most people want to throw their hands in the air and say "oh well, they got us", like a bunch of dogs waiting for scraps to fall off the table we'll continue to fight for crumbs. Sad mentality. If this was the attitude of auto workers back in the day then unionism wouldn't exist, and they'd still be making $3-4 bucks an hour performing dangerous work.

You can always stand up and change things .. if you need proof .. you mentioned south of the boarder, I see Eagle pilots rejecting peanuts to fly E175's, I see Commuter Air holding out in contract talks and gaining 12% increases for Capt's and 24% increases for FO's! Stop making excuses! If something isn't hard then its not worth fighting for!

If you want change, you want your share you need to be willing to do what it takes ... that's what CR does. Learn by example.
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Re: Renegotiating with Air Canada

#117 Post by razorblade » Thu May 29, 2014 11:10 am

Localizer wrote:Respectfully Fanblade, I think I do have it right .. it sounds like most people want to throw their hands in the air and say "oh well, they got us", like a bunch of dogs waiting for scraps to fall off the table we'll continue to fight for crumbs. Sad mentality. If this was the attitude of auto workers back in the day then unionism wouldn't exist, and they'd still be making $3-4 bucks an hour performing dangerous work.

You can always stand up and change things .. if you need proof .. you mentioned south of the boarder, I see Eagle pilots rejecting peanuts to fly E175's, I see Commuter Air holding out in contract talks and gaining 12% increases for Capt's and 24% increases for FO's! Stop making excuses! If something isn't hard then its not worth fighting for!

If you want change, you want your share you need to be willing to do what it takes ... that's what CR does. Learn by example.
:prayer:

Thank you!
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Re: Renegotiating with Air Canada

#118 Post by Fanblade » Thu May 29, 2014 3:43 pm

Localizer wrote:Respectfully Fanblade, I think I do have it right .. it sounds like most people want to throw their hands in the air and say "oh well, they got us", like a bunch of dogs waiting for scraps to fall off the table we'll continue to fight for crumbs. Sad mentality. If this was the attitude of auto workers back in the day then unionism wouldn't exist, and they'd still be making $3-4 bucks an hour performing dangerous work.

You can always stand up and change things .. if you need proof .. you mentioned south of the boarder, I see Eagle pilots rejecting peanuts to fly E175's, I see Commuter Air holding out in contract talks and gaining 12% increases for Capt's and 24% increases for FO's! Stop making excuses! If something isn't hard then its not worth fighting for!

If you want change, you want your share you need to be willing to do what it takes ... that's what CR does. Learn by example.
Nice prose loc,

But they are simply words. Reality check. CR has the keys and we are all along for the ride. Every single one of us. The economics doesn't support your ideal and can't unless everyone in NA is on board with it. In particular WJ which triggered the issue in Canada. CR has very clearly stated what he wants. A competitive match. He has also clearly stated what he intends to do if he doesn't get what he wants. All your allies are powerless to help.


In the mean time AC needs to compete with things like this, well unless you can get the AA pilots on board.

For those that don't know Envoy is formerly American Eagle.

http://www.star-telegram.com/2014/05/01 ... .html?rh=1

http://blogs.star-telegram.com/sky_talk ... ilots.html

Envoy Air may need only half as many pilots after American Airlines Group downsizes the regional carrier, the airline’s pilots union said Thursday.

In a note to pilots, the Air Line Pilots Association said American plans to park 59 small regional jets and transfer 47 larger regional jets away from its subsidiary carrier. As a result, Envoy will need 47 percent fewer pilots, the union said.

http://m.atwonline.com/finance-data/rep ... 14-million

Republic.

During the first quarter, the company took delivery of five Embraer E-175s related to its American Airlines E-175 fixed-fee agreement, bringing the total to 24 of the 47 aircraft deliveries. It expects to take delivery of 19 E-175 aircraft during the remainder of 2014 and the remaining four aircraft in early 2015.

Skywest. May 14, 2014

http://www.flightglobal.com/news/articl ... ct-399280/

SkyWest Inc and Trans States Holdings have submitted bids to operate up to 60 Embraer 175 aircraft for American Airlines.
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Re: Renegotiating with Air Canada

#119 Post by Localizer » Thu May 29, 2014 5:55 pm

I love your reality check Fanblade .. Do what CR says or suffer the wrath. If that's the world you want to live in, then by all means jump when the whip cracks, as for me and I believe many others in this industry, the Eagle pilots are hero's and the tip of the iceberg. They stood up for what they believed in and sure they might suffer .. might be political spin too, only time will tell. If they do suffer for standing up in what they believe in then what are you for not standing with them?

Cheers.
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Re: Renegotiating with Air Canada

#120 Post by Fanblade » Thu May 29, 2014 6:26 pm

Localizer wrote:I love your reality check Fanblade .. Do what CR says or suffer the wrath. If that's the world you want to live in, then by all means jump when the whip cracks, as for me and I believe many others in this industry, the Eagle pilots are hero's and the tip of the iceberg. They stood up for what they believed in and sure they might suffer .. might be political spin too, only time will tell. If they do suffer for standing up in what they believe in then what are you for not standing with them?

Cheers.
Loc,

You are full of insight into what you see as problems, but without a solution you have nothing but words that people want to hear.

I didn't say do what CR wants. I said he has complete control over all of us. There is a difference. One is submission. The other a recognition of our collective weakness.

You clearly want to address the issue of weakness, as would I. What I am saying is a single AC list will accomplish squat.

What each group needs to decide is how we will respond to that collective weakness. Belligerence? Stand on principle? Find a palatable way out?

ACPA is making those decisions. You will be making those decisions. Eagle appears to have made that decision.

It's your Call. Belief that you are in a position of power, when your not, leads to questionable decisions IMO.

I'm just repeating myself now.

Good luck
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Re: Renegotiating with Air Canada

#121 Post by Stinky » Thu May 29, 2014 6:32 pm

It remains to be seen what the Eagle pilots actually accomplished, other than put themselves in the unemployment line. The planes are going to a lower cost operator.
The U.S. carriers have found the bottom, minimum wage is what a pilot is worth, or was. The tables have turned since the majors have begun to hire and the 1500 hour rule came in to play.
I don't think we've hit bottom just yet in Canada, ground schools are still being filled.
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Re: Renegotiating with Air Canada

#122 Post by Localizer » Thu May 29, 2014 9:30 pm

We do have power Fanblade .. don't kid yourself .. If only we could stand as a collective group would that power really be seen. They can't control our labour no matter what "law" they want to write. We could all just sit on our ass's and not operate one airplane in this country. THAT .. is power .. and only we control that .. not CR, not Harper .. the question is really who has the nuggets to put their money where their mouth is, as I continue to say .. together we stand, divided we fall.

You continue to call these words .. but its words that lead an army ..
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Re: Renegotiating with Air Canada

#123 Post by Fanblade » Fri May 30, 2014 3:22 pm

Localizer wrote:We do have power Fanblade .. don't kid yourself .. If only we could stand as a collective group would that power really be seen. They can't control our labour no matter what "law" they want to write. We could all just sit on our ass's and not operate one airplane in this country. THAT .. is power .. and only we control that .. not CR, not Harper .. the question is really who has the nuggets to put their money where their mouth is, as I continue to say .. together we stand, divided we fall.

You continue to call these words .. but its words that lead an army ..
What you are suggesting is illegal. Next to no one would follow.

You need a palatable outcome, and a path to that outcome, that is realistically achievable.

But again, I am repeating myself.

Cheers
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Re: Renegotiating with Air Canada

#124 Post by goldenpilot » Sat May 31, 2014 12:14 am

Supply and Demand. Employees aren't worth whatever they think, but rather what the free market dictates. There is no accounting for peoples sense of self worth, depending on their vanity. TFWs will displace us all eventually if the program were allowed to continue to expand.
Ah the free market card. Management will play the free market card when it suits them, but will cosy up to the government when it doesn't.

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Re: Renegotiating with Air Canada

#125 Post by DH772 » Sun Jun 01, 2014 12:10 pm

We do have power Fanblade .. don't kid yourself .. If only we could stand as a collective group would that power really be seen. They can't control our labour no matter what "law" they want to write. We could all just sit on our ass's and not operate one airplane in this country. THAT .. is power .. and only we control that .. not CR, not Harper .. the question is really who has the nuggets to put their money where their mouth is, as I continue to say .. together we stand, divided we fall.

You continue to call these words .. but its words that lead an army ..

HA quite funny! Using an illegal tact is not a solution my friend.
Shall we threaten them with a gun while we are at it?
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