2014 payrates

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flyer 1492
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2014 payrates

#1 Post by flyer 1492 » Tue Jun 10, 2014 2:23 pm

Here is the new pays scale effective July 1, 2014

YOS Capt First Officer
1 80.89 43.29
2 82.91 48.72
3 84.98 56.68
4 87.10 58.95
5 89.28 61.31
6 91.51 63.76
7 93.80 66.31
8 96.15 67.97
9 98.55 69.61
10 101.01 71.41
11 103.54 73.20
12 106.13 75.03
13 108.78
14 111.50
15 114.29
16 117.15
17 120.08
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rudder
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Re: 2014 payrates

#2 Post by rudder » Tue Jun 10, 2014 2:33 pm

How does that compare to Encore, Skyregional, and GGN? Hard to tell as these companies and their pilots spend an awful lot of time keeping their embarrassingly low pay rates a secret.

Here is a challenge to a SKY/ENCORE/GGN pilot - post your pay tables.

As for Porter, my understanding is that the year 1-10 scales are very similar to Jazz. If that assumption is incorrect, please provide accurate info.

Time to put the cards out on the table.
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kingtwo
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Re: 2014 payrates

#3 Post by kingtwo » Tue Jun 10, 2014 4:50 pm

Don't forget that jazz has a status pay system so it's a blended rate for 37 seaters to 75 seaters. If Jazz were like encore and only operated 74 seaters, our rates would reflect much higher because the 37 seaters wouldn't be dragging down the average. Keep that in mind when you consider 1st year captain encore pay is approx $69/hr and Jazz is $80.89, jazz would be closer to $95/hr if we operated only q400's. So once again, thank you encore guys for lowering the bar, but hey, you might get to fly a shiny 737 one day! (Correction, 25% of you might see the 737)

I won't get started on the WAWCON differences today or I'll give myself a stroke, come to think of it, I better not get started on Sky regional or Georgian either. What a @#$! up of an industry we have, at least the execs are happy. Time to grow so balls boys and girls.
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av8ts
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Re: 2014 payrates

#4 Post by av8ts » Tue Jun 10, 2014 5:01 pm

The "Small Body" rates include all aircraft up to 90 seats, so if Jazz operated all q400's and 705's the rate would be unchanged from now.
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Re: 2014 payrates

#5 Post by Stinky » Tue Jun 10, 2014 6:57 pm

Keep in mind that if you don't currently work at Jazz with many years of service under your belt the captain pay rates are meaningless since you'll never see them. Top pay for someone currently off the street is $75.03, that's it, EVER!

Sky, Georgian and Encore will see upgrades so your earning potential over 10 years is greater.

Crappy situation, but it's the truth.
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Re: 2014 payrates

#6 Post by rudder » Tue Jun 10, 2014 7:12 pm

Stinky wrote:
Sky, Georgian and Encore will see upgrades so your earning potential over 10 years is greater.
Wow. That is the worst justification for sub-par wages that I have ever heard. You would fit in well at Rouge.
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rudder
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Re: 2014 payrates

#7 Post by rudder » Tue Jun 10, 2014 7:25 pm

av8ts wrote:The "Small Body" rates include all aircraft up to 90 seats, so if Jazz operated all q400's and 705's the rate would be unchanged from now.

And that is exactly what the Jazz fleet should be (probably 40 Q400 and 60 705/175). And perhaps serious consideration should be given to allowing Jazz to operate the 705 hull at the higher seat capacity (based on the 900 certification). Same aircraft - more seats/more revenue.

The genius of the system is that if the decisionmakers are either unwilling or unable to up-gauge the fleet, the pilots are still pay protected even if flying the smaller aircraft.

This system has been in place for over a decade now. There are no excuses for still operating a fleet that is mostly in the 37-50 seat range. Those aircraft are at or close to the end of their service lives. And you do not see the competition (non-AC) putting these size aircraft in to service.
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meatball
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Re: 2014 payrates

#8 Post by meatball » Wed Jun 11, 2014 11:50 pm

Encore rates yr 1 are now

$70.91/$38.97

Approximately 10% lower than Jazz. If WJ shares a profit of ~$50 million for 2014/15 these rates will be on par with Jazz. This does not include ESPP which is effectively the pension, which by the way is 100% solvent. Last time I looked the Jazz pension was funded at 69%.

King two: when was the last time Jazz hired a DEC? The fact of the matter is that some people can't wrap their heads around the fact that the going rate for a Q400 captain is about $80/hr to start. I know this to be true because Jazz says so. Like status pay versus equipment pay there are many ways to arrive at the same number.

Further, 100% of Encore pilots will get the opportunity to fly the 737 if they choose, not the 25% you suggest. 25% will flow through in all future ground schools at a minimum, the only question is will it be a trickle (25%) or a flood (100%). That's a valid question.

So on behalf of Encore pilots, kingtwo, you're welcome! We are upholding the bar set by Jazz!
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Re: 2014 payrates

#9 Post by sstaurus » Thu Jun 12, 2014 12:00 am

What is everyone's monthly guarantee?
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rudder
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Re: 2014 payrates

#10 Post by rudder » Thu Jun 12, 2014 12:03 am

meatball wrote:Encore rates yr 1 are now

$70.91/$38.97

Approximately 10% lower than Jazz. If WJ shares a profit of ~$50 million for 2014/15 these rates will be on par with Jazz. This does not include ESPP which is effectively the pension, which by the way is 100% solvent. Last time I looked the Jazz pension was funded at 69%.

We are upholding the bar set by Jazz!
($80.89 - $70.91)/ $70.91 = 14%

Pay includes P/S? Tell that to your bank when you are negotiating your mortgage.

There is no comparison between a DB pension plan and a self-directed RSP.

Nice try. Low bar = Low bar.
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Re: 2014 payrates

#11 Post by meatball » Thu Jun 12, 2014 12:24 am

70/80=87.5%
39/43.30=89%

Equals approximately 10%

And you are right... A DB pension plan is no comparison. It's so limiting! Especially when you only get 70% of your money out. Ask an old Air BC guy how that works out for your pension planning.
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Re: 2014 payrates

#12 Post by kingtwo » Thu Jun 12, 2014 12:55 am

Meatball, can you post the YOS pay progression at encore? F/O and Capt?
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Re: 2014 payrates

#13 Post by rudder » Thu Jun 12, 2014 1:29 am

meatball wrote:70/80=87.5%
39/43.30=89%

Equals approximately 10%

And you are right... A DB pension plan is no comparison. It's so limiting! Especially when you only get 70% of your money out. Ask an old Air BC guy how that works out for your pension planning.
There are Jazz pilots retiring this year and taking commuted DB values of over $1,000,000.

If you think that is a bad thing then you are out to lunch.

Good luck with P/S and ESP.
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Re: 2014 payrates

#14 Post by meatball » Thu Jun 12, 2014 1:48 am

I didn't say it was bad... Just limited.
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Re: 2014 payrates

#15 Post by rudder » Thu Jun 12, 2014 1:59 am

meatball wrote:I didn't say it was bad... Just limited.
True. But in order to derive the equivalent benefit of a 2% FAE DB plan then you will need to invest 18% of earned income in an RSP or combination of retirement savings vehicles (RRSP/TFSA/etc). Without a meaningful company contribution (think 10%+) that is much more than many living paycheck to paycheck can afford to put aside.
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Re: 2014 payrates

#16 Post by Mig29 » Thu Jun 12, 2014 7:23 am

kingtwo wrote:Meatball, can you post the YOS pay progression at encore? F/O and Capt?
That's where things become very different, and its probably why guys don't want to post them.

Last time I spoke with their hiring staff, they sent me a package containing all the employment info. (btw. I applied, got a call, and politely declined after reading through it).

These rates only had 4 levels at the time, so bump up these numbers by a dollar or two to reflect 2014..

CAPT yr 1/2/3/4

$68/69/71/72

F/O yr 1/2/3/4

$38/39/39.5/40.3


So compare that to Jazz first 4 year rates:

1 80.89 43.29
2 82.91 48.72
3 84.98 56.68
4 87.10 58.95

After 4 years you end up making over 30% more at Jazz as an F/O, and almost 20% more as a CPT.
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proper
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Re: 2014 payrates

#17 Post by proper » Thu Jun 12, 2014 12:32 pm

I'm a 7 year For at Jazz on the dash classic, my T4 last year was 74500$, I get about 900-1200$ tax free in per diem per month on top of that. I have a DB pension on top of that and our benefits are ridiculously inclusive which I pay 50℅ (300$ per month but my whole family is covered regardless of how many kids. Short and Long term disability included).

I work 13 days a month and try to do 2 days of OT per month for a total of 15 days worked (It shifts are often a quick turn and a half day.Oh and next year I get bumped to 7 weeks I believe? Feel free to correct.

By my rough math, specially taking account days worked... I make more than twice a Sky CAPTAIN overall.

Let us not forget that our jobs require a responsibily that other industries pay handsomly for. In aviation we get screwed.
I feel I am fairly paid for my Job on a Classic but when I see Encore, Ggn and sky wawcom, I throw up in my mouth. Not everyone will fly a 737 so where does that leave you and your families when the teal wears off?

Ask yourselves what kind of life you want and then think is these wages are acceptable. Senior management is preying on those going to the terrible to think its a good gig, don't adapt and believe it is.

What I have was fought long and hard and I will continue to fight. A bus driver, tradespersons should never make more than a bloody airline pilot!!!!
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Re: 2014 payrates

#18 Post by hithere » Thu Jun 12, 2014 1:04 pm

13 days of work is not representative of the average Jazz pilot. You must be relatively senior on you roster. A pilot in the middle of any seniority list at Jazz is working around 15-16 days a month. Those extra two days you have off and are then using for overtime are inflating you salary a bit. Nothing wrong with it, it's just a big misleading. In order to compare apples to apples you need to disregard overtime pay. Let's call it $65,000/year without OT. Still it's still head and shoulders above Sky orGeorgian/Regional 1 or Encore
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Re: 2014 payrates

#19 Post by proper » Thu Jun 12, 2014 1:04 pm

Correction, I have 5 weeks vaca now and it will be after 8 years I get bumped to 6 weeks. Changed in last contract.
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Re: 2014 payrates

#20 Post by KAG » Thu Jun 12, 2014 1:11 pm

Food for thought.
Yes you will make more on paper all things being equal at jazz over the duration of say a 20 year career there. But things are not equal.
Encore, while new and crappy paying has some interesting points in its favour.
* Fast upgrade.
say 1 year (maybe direct entry cpt), it would take 10 years at jazz as an fo to reach year 1 cpt at encore. Does anyone think the scales at encore will be stagnant for a decade? When I started at WJ were mocked for our hourly wages, not any more.

*an involved pilot group.
By that I mean wj pilots, we're pushing for better wawcon and one list. Our new WJPA has made fixing encore the #1 priority.

*flow through. Time will tell ultimately how successful it is, but I think it's going too shock a lot of people (in a good way).

Yes it's got its issues, and I'm not saying it's for everyone, but as it stands right now, there are few other opportunities in Canada That offer that kind of spring board to the left seat of a new 705 machine making a decent wage.

***this applies to applicants applying with upgrade potential, not a lower time pilot whose looking to spend years in the right seat. I'd look for getting pic time first. ***
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Re: 2014 payrates

#21 Post by flyer 1492 » Thu Jun 12, 2014 2:50 pm

Some more food for thought:

It is true you might have to wait 6-8 years for a left seat at Jazz. When you do make the move, you take your years of service with you and move to the respective pay rate. Take a seven year First Officer the pay jump would be close to 42%. At least you don't have to start over at the bottom of each pay scale (reminds me old Time Air).
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Re: 2014 payrates

#22 Post by KAG » Thu Jun 12, 2014 6:09 pm

It will still take a decade or more to catch up to what you would have made at encore. And unless your a career regional pilot your off to the 37 or elsewhere anyway.
Point is there is more then just numbers to consider when playing the "game of careers".... Just made that up, I'm feeling pretty good about that. I'll TM that saying :smt040

At the end of the day there is no right or wrong path/ company to work for its really what's good for you.
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Re: 2014 payrates

#23 Post by flyer 1492 » Thu Jun 12, 2014 6:37 pm

What you are saying is not quite correct, as the number of airframes increases at encore so does the wait for the command seat and pay. When you have around 30 airframes the time will increase and you will be farther behind in terms of pay. 100% flow thru will not be very easy to achieve (25-50%) would be a more realistic goal.
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Re: 2014 payrates

#24 Post by KAG » Thu Jun 12, 2014 9:05 pm

I see the upgrades somewhat following wj's past. Months, years, then many years. Point is its not as cut and dry a decision purely based on hourly wage. Especially during a period of rapid growth. I also don't think it's going to be the poor paying job some think it is. That said there is nothing wrong with making 100k first year skipper. IMHO.
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Last edited by KAG on Fri Jun 13, 2014 2:03 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: 2014 payrates

#25 Post by leftoftrack » Thu Jun 12, 2014 11:59 pm

flyer 1492 wrote:Some more food for thought:

It is true you might have to wait 6-8 years for a left seat at Jazz. When you do make the move, you take your years of service with you and move to the respective pay rate. Take a seven year First Officer the pay jump would be close to 42%. At least you don't have to start over at the bottom of each pay scale (reminds me old Time Air).
Is Jazz going to be around in 8 Years?
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