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 Post subject: Re: 2014 payrates
PostPosted: Fri Jun 13, 2014 8:11 am 
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leftoftrack wrote:
Is Jazz going to be around in 8 Years?


Who knows, but you can say the same for Encore, Rouge, Sky etc......my personal view that it will, not quite in the same shape/capacity, but it will exist :wink:



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 Post subject: Re: 2014 payrates
PostPosted: Fri Jun 13, 2014 9:31 am 
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Mig29 wrote:
leftoftrack wrote:
Is Jazz going to be around in 8 Years?


Who knows, but you can say the same for Encore, Rouge, Sky etc......my personal view that it will, not quite in the same shape/capacity, but it will exist :wink:


whos going to sit on reserve for 3 years to find out that they finally can hold a block knowing that you only have 5 years left till the company is tits up and your starting at the bottom of the sky regional list



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 Post subject: Re: 2014 payrates
PostPosted: Fri Jun 13, 2014 10:23 am 
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Seriously people ... Who seriously thinks a company operating over 800 flights a day with 1500 pilots can be replaced in 5 years? If the SKR and GGN experiments don't prove my point lets also look at the issue of a pilot shortage .. (Experienced pilot shortage) .. There are many more (financial) reasons I could state, but reality is these are tactics to get better pricing from Chorus in my opinion.


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 Post subject: Re: 2014 payrates
PostPosted: Fri Jun 13, 2014 4:37 pm 
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How many flights did Comair operate on behalf of Delta?


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 Post subject: Re: 2014 payrates
PostPosted: Fri Jun 13, 2014 5:14 pm 
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The only way that SKY and GGN could ever hope to meaningfully replace Jazz is to have hundreds of Jazz pilots quit Jazz to go to these bottom feeder outfits.

Time will tell.



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 Post subject: Re: 2014 payrates
PostPosted: Sat Jun 14, 2014 6:10 am 
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Localizer wrote:
Seriously people ... Who seriously thinks a company operating over 800 flights a day with 1500 pilots can be replaced in 5 years? If the SKR and GGN experiments don't prove my point lets also look at the issue of a pilot shortage .. (Experienced pilot shortage) .. There are many more (financial) reasons I could state, but reality is these are tactics to get better pricing from Chorus in my opinion.


envoy is about half the size it was 6 months ago. Air Canada's issue isn't that it would be to hard to replace JAZZ. Their issue is they cant do it fast enough do to the contracts signed



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 Post subject: Re: 2014 payrates
PostPosted: Sat Jun 14, 2014 9:20 pm 
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leftoftrack wrote:

envoy is about half the size it was 6 months ago. Air Canada's issue isn't that it would be to hard to replace JAZZ. Their issue is they cant do it fast enough do to the contracts signed


Since emerging from CCAA in 2004, Jazz has been replaced to the tune of............5 aircraft (GGN CRJ). And that 'experiment' has thus far been an unmitigated disaster from an operational perspective.

Do you think that finding DEC's is that easy? Just ask Encore/SKY/GGN. Unless current Jazz pilots line up to fill these positions the reality is that there are nowhere enough pilots in Canada to fill the spots.

Envoy/Comair analogies are clearly apples and oranges. Jazz may get smaller, but it will happen slowly and even then the 'replacement' airline will be challenged to find qualified or experienced pilots.



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 Post subject: Re: 2014 payrates
PostPosted: Sat Jun 14, 2014 11:46 pm 
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rudder wrote:
leftoftrack wrote:

Do you think that finding DEC's is that easy? Just ask Encore/SKY/GGN. Unless current Jazz pilots line up to fill these positions the reality is that there are nowhere enough pilots in Canada to fill the spots.



TFW



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 Post subject: Re: 2014 payrates
PostPosted: Sun Jun 15, 2014 2:56 pm 
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loopa wrote:
rudder wrote:
leftoftrack wrote:

Do you think that finding DEC's is that easy? Just ask Encore/SKY/GGN. Unless current Jazz pilots line up to fill these positions the reality is that there are nowhere enough pilots in Canada to fill the spots.



TFW


That's the wild card. What another poster said somewhere on here; supply and demand is only allowed to work in the companies' favour, any upward pressure on salaries will unfortunately (likely) just lead to TFWs.



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 Post subject: Re: 2014 payrates
PostPosted: Sun Jun 15, 2014 7:49 pm 
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AC doesn't want to eliminate CPA providers (Jazz), they want more CPA providers (SKR and GGN). This means shifting CPA work from Jazz to others, thus shrinking Jazz. AC doesn't want to have 2010 happen again.

Are not upgrades well over 6-8 years right now at Jazz, what is the DOH of the most junior Capt right now? How many years for an upgrade going forward... it could be many many years if ever as Jazz continues to shrink.

There are many Captains at Jazz now that personally told me that they had the chance (some said they had multiple chances) to go to WestJet but didn't for the same reasons people are giving for turning down Encore. Looking back they wished they had taken the opportunity. I wonder if history is repeating it's self?



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 Post subject: Re: 2014 payrates
PostPosted: Wed Jun 18, 2014 11:22 am 
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The funny thing is... No one has the balls to post Sky, Ggn or
Encore payscales... What does that tell you?

"The exception usually hides until it becomes the norm"
-Winston Churchill



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 Post subject: Re: 2014 payrates
PostPosted: Wed Jun 18, 2014 1:29 pm 
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There needs to be pay for there to be a scale! :goodman:


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 Post subject: Re: 2014 payrates
PostPosted: Wed Jun 25, 2014 6:42 am 
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Well, after all the rhetoric, the conscious of a sky and Ggn pilot on this thread is too hide the info. Thanks for proving my point.


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 Post subject: Re: 2014 payrates
PostPosted: Wed Jun 25, 2014 10:23 am 
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The pay rates are on this forum somewhere.

I think Georgian was $70k base and anything over 75 hours was at an hourly rate.

Sky was $52k- $55k base plus around $25 an hour for all flying with a guarantee of 65 hours.

In either case you'll be making mid to high 80's.

Better than any Jazz FO in terms of money in your pocket, not as good for days off, scheduling rules or pension.

Health benefits could be another thing, Jazz is very expensive with big deductions for that and long term disability. I believe Sky and GGN have healthcare plans that are free???

Depends what you want, more and better hours in the logbook plus more cash in the bank today, or a pension and better scheduling rules and union protection. Unfortunately that's about all that Jazz has to offer, you can't argue other intangible perks like job security or opportunity for advancement because those aren't there anymore, especially for a new hire.

I'll just add this, a lot of people seem to compare the minimum pay guarantee of the enemy but then use their actual earnings to prove their point. An 8 year Jazz FO is paid about $66 an hour and guaranteed 75 hours a month, that's $59400 a year.



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 Post subject: Re: 2014 payrates
PostPosted: Wed Jun 25, 2014 3:03 pm 
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I can't recall a min month at Jazz, avg 82.5 on a fairly regular basis. I'll take the DB and security of a good LTD plan in case something happens and my family needs a roof over their heads and food in their belly. I'm not 20 yrs old and looking out for only myself .. One day those problems will be yours and we'll be better equipped to have this conversation on the same level.


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 Post subject: Re: 2014 payrates
PostPosted: Wed Jun 25, 2014 4:37 pm 
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Stinky wrote:
An 8 year Jazz FO is paid about $66 an hour and guaranteed 75 hours a month, that's $59400 a year.

Our guarantee is 80 per month, with anything over 85 hours paid at base rate x 1.5. On the DH8 I've been blocked at 82.5 for at least the past 6 months and usually end up with just shy of 90 after natural block growth due to weather and de-ice delays, etc. But if you're just simply looking at base pay for an 8 year Jazz F/O, it's $68 X 80 hrs/month X 12 months = $65,280. Add in per diems (for those who like to include that as income) and you're looking at $76,000 pre-tax. With our block hours as of late, it's almost $80,000. And if you include the Stock Purchase Plan and contribute to the max (assuming the stock doesn't crash), add another few grand to your pocket.

Just trying to set the facts straight.



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 Post subject: Re: 2014 payrates
PostPosted: Wed Jun 25, 2014 10:01 pm 
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DHC-1 Jockey wrote:
Stinky wrote:
An 8 year Jazz FO is paid about $66 an hour and guaranteed 75 hours a month, that's $59400 a year.

Our guarantee is 80 per month, with anything over 85 hours paid at base rate x 1.5. On the DH8 I've been blocked at 82.5 for at least the past 6 months and usually end up with just shy of 90 after natural block growth due to weather and de-ice delays, etc. But if you're just simply looking at base pay for an 8 year Jazz F/O, it's $68 X 80 hrs/month X 12 months = $65,280. Add in per diems (for those who like to include that as income) and you're looking at $76,000 pre-tax. With our block hours as of late, it's almost $80,000. And if you include the Stock Purchase Plan and contribute to the max (assuming the stock doesn't crash), add another few grand to your pocket.

Just trying to set the facts straight.


+benefits+pension+vacation days+best reserve rules in Canada+great work rules etc etc etc

That all adds up so you cannot JUST look at the salary.


_________________
http://www.collegeofpilots.ca/


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 Post subject: Re: 2014 payrates
PostPosted: Fri Jun 27, 2014 6:48 am 
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Granted,

But as much as I agree with all of you I do understand people leaving the company as it seems that there is nothing to look forward to in terms of career progression.



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 Post subject: Re: 2014 payrates
PostPosted: Sat Jun 28, 2014 2:11 am 
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I prefer healthy, undivorced, quality rearing family progression. :smt040


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 Post subject: Re: 2014 payrates
PostPosted: Sat Jun 28, 2014 2:12 am 
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I prefer healthy, undivorced, quality rearing family progression. :smt040


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 Post subject: Re: 2014 payrates
PostPosted: Sat Jul 05, 2014 1:42 am 
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Had a beer with one of the first guys to flow up from Encore - nice fella.

He did 10 months on the Q.

2 years from now he'll be at $81.01 in the right seat based on the 2009 agreement. He's young and in time will make shwack of money even sitting in the right seat of the '37.

I think Encore is a great place to work if you are young and have eyes on WestJet for the long haul. It's just not that easy for somebody longer in the tooth with a family.

If WS was to tank tomorrow - I could not go work at AC because I wouldn't survive the short term pain despite the long term potential as I am becoming long in the tooth and have a family to support.

Like it or not - aviation has never done anybody any favours as we cannot take our seniority as we move laterally in the airline biz. It's been that way for about 70 years.

In the end - anybody joining Encore today will financially outpace anybody presently working at Jazz despite starting off 10% short on the hourly rates.

The 737 is not a carrot - it's a reality. Flow is not a carrot - it's a reality with a minimum rate of 25%. Oh, and the pilot group approved with overwhelming support of a single pilot list for Encore and WestJet based on date of hire - another piece of reality.

Good on the fine folks at Jazz who have carved out a nice life for themselves and their families. I'm glad to hear of your success in an industry that has been very difficult on families for so many over the years.

Good on the young guys who are getting on at Encore - you will do just fine.

As far as the rest for whom Encore is not a fit - I like the industry may not do any favours for you. This is nothing new so get used to it. Fortunately there are opportunities out there that pilots of my generation would have killed for.

Good luck to all.

JJJ



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 Post subject: Re: 2014 payrates
PostPosted: Sat Jul 05, 2014 11:54 am 
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So it goes like this: Go to Encore, make barely above poverty as an FO, upgrade to Captain after a year or 2. Go to year 1 Captain pay which is still pretty crappy. Finally get on to WJ after X number of years. Go to level 1 pay again. Make decent money after a few years in the right seat. Finally get a shot at that coveted left seat at WJ after 10 or more years and go to level 1 Captain pay again.


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 Post subject: Re: 2014 payrates
PostPosted: Sat Jul 05, 2014 12:12 pm 
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It is just another job ad for Encore. Biggest potential source of pilots in Canada is Jazz, so why not target them? Just sad that a WJ pilot has to be the spokesman for the offer.

et caveat emptor



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 Post subject: Re: 2014 payrates
PostPosted: Mon Jul 07, 2014 8:46 pm 
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Does anyone here recommend somebody joining Jazz given the 2020 CPA deal that will come to an end? Is Jazz enough of a self-run company to support itself and the pay scales it presently has when that year comes? I'm not asking because I don't believe it will, simply because I don't have the facts on what you Jaazz employed pilots think about the situation.

I just heard a friend of a friend get hired at Jazz, and I'm just curious if it's a good career move for this individual in their 30's with about 3k hours combination of instructing, king air, transport category time? No MPIC.

Is the fact that Jazz is still running GRSC to fill attrition, or anticipated expansion?

Essentially, is it a good move going to Jazz today?



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 Post subject: Re: 2014 payrates
PostPosted: Mon Jul 07, 2014 10:42 pm 
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You already scabbed over to flair recently for the greener pastures, why would you want to move to Jazz so quickly?


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