Canadian aerobatic

[Jerz]

Murf, you can still do good in Advanced and even Unlimited at regional level in modded Pitts. But continental or world level is totally different game. People, especially Europeans take it very seriously.
Just buy the best one you can afford right now, fly it as much as you can for a year or two, maybe build a set of wings over the winter, buy some 10:1 pistons, cold air intake and tuned exhaust, and you can go places . Only then if you still desire to move to the world level competition, look at a monoplane.

[tiggermoth]

I would imagine that if a guy had a nice S-1C to start out with, and over time added stuff like Raven or WolfPitts wings, a Wolf cowl and RV-3 style landing gear, you would probably end up with a pretty good airplane for the top levels at the smaller contests.

I read that there is two different fuselages one can get also, a shorter one and a longer one. I have read in a couple places that the longer one is quite often refered to as an S-1S fuse. Peter, do you have any more info on what this is about?? Reading Budd Davisson's stuff it seems like there is an extra 3 inches or something added. Would the longer fuse be something to look for as well??

[cgzro]

would imagine that if a guy had a nice S-1C to start out with, and over time added stuff like Raven or WolfPitts wings, a Wolf cowl and RV-3 style landing gear, you would probably end up with a pretty good airplane for the top levels at the smaller contests.

I read that there is two different fuselages one can get also, a shorter one and a longer one. I have read in a couple places that the longer one is quite often refered to as an S-1S fuse. Peter, do you have any more info on what this is about?? Reading Budd Davisson's stuff it seems like there is an extra 3 inches or something added. Would the longer fuse be something to look for as well??

Personally I'd not get into modifying a plane. Just buy the one you want, fly the heck out of it for a few years, then look for the next one. Modifying a plane is a very expensive and time consuming and potentially dangerous project. I doubt its cheaper unless you are a superb craftsman and have lots of free time.

The S-1S and S-1T fusealages are a little bit different. This was because the heavier engine and prop required that the pilot be seated a few inches further aft for W&B. There are also a few extra diagonal braces in the T fuse. You can see the difference if you look at the two planes from above. The S-1S has a 1/2 moon cutout in the wing because the pilot sits a bit under the top wing, while in the T the top whng has no such cutout as the pilot is a bit further aft.

There are so few people flying at the rregional level that gas is probably the most important factor while at the international level you need a $300,000 monoplane and a lot of gas.

[Hedley]

Data point:

A friend of mine bought a very nice O-320 S-1C for Cdn$31k, which included delivery from BC to Ontario. It has the flat-bottom wings and two ailerons. He has since bought this:

https://secure.steenaero.com/Store/site ... 283EDD6EC2

which is cheaper than this:

https://secure.steenaero.com/Store/site ... C921B0536A

But I think he decided that rather replace the wings on the S-1C, he will simply tack up a new fuselage and build a second Pitts, and leave the S-1C "as is".

PS If you want a single-seat Pitts fuselage all welded up, here ya go:

https://secure.steenaero.com/Store/site ... A95C625C33

You could build a brand-new S-1S in a hurry with the above - cover the assembled wings and fuselage and bolt them together and hang an engine on the front.

[Murf]

and how much for covering a aircraft and paint it ? and theres a place to do it in ontario and quebec ?

[Hedley]

Fabric and paint aren't cheap. Moe in Oshawa does great work - he's recovered Peter's Pitts - but good work doesn't come cheap (or fast).

IMHO you're better off to learn to do it yourself. As a friend of mine once told me, if you can iron your pants, you can cover fabric!

But for what a used S-1C will cost, buy that instead. You could build up a really nice S-1S with a new prop, engine, fuselage, wings, tanks, landing gear, canopy, instruments, avionics .... but unless you fly it for 1,000 hours, financially speaking you're going to lose your shirt.

[tiggermoth]

Personally I'd not get into modifying a plane. Just buy the one you want, fly the heck out of it for a few years, then look for the next one. Modifying a plane is a very expensive and time consuming and potentially dangerous project. I doubt its cheaper unless you are a superb craftsman and have lots of free time

Very good points!! I am an AME and I enjoy tinkering, so thinking about modifying just kind of comes natural
Chances are, when I have a few bucks to play with, I will just buy something and go fly anyways!!!

[P-40]

There is a 1982 Pitt's S-1C (O-320) available for sale here in southern Alberta although it is not being actively solicited. The owner wants about $20K for it, you probably can't buy a new Honda Civic for that much. I considered purchasing it last fall but after much deliberation purchased a share in a 1995 Super D in order to cut my teeth in the tail wheel/aerobatic world. The Super D made more sense to me seeing I had no tail wheel time and only 135 hours TT. I still want to get into a single seat Pitt's but will learn all I can in the Decathlon before taking the Pitt's plunge. Brady

[Hedley]

1982 Pitt's S-1C (O-320) .... owner wants about $20K

If it's not a problem airplane - if everything works on it, and it doesn't need $$$ for immediate fabric or engine - someone here oughta jump on it! It's already C-registered, so no Transport hassle - just change over the C of R.

Contrary to what everyone says all the time, you don't need to be rich to fly aerobatics.

You just have to be up for the moment, which few people are. They prefer to talk, instead of doing.

Heads up when buying any aircraft with a Lycoming engine which may have sat for a while - check the camshaft for corrosion. Also, with nitrided cylinders, they can corrode, too. Many Pitts often sit for depressingly long periods of time, either for winter, or because their owners are afraid of them.

Heck, I remember when we bought our family Maule - I still have it - back in 1971. The previous owner was terrified of it. Sigh. Even almost 40 years ago, there was nobody around to give him some competent dual tailwheel instruction.

[P-40]

1982 Pitt's S-1C (O-320) .... owner wants about $20K

If it's not a problem airplane - if everything works on it, and it doesn't need $$$ for immediate fabric or engine - someone here oughta jump on it! It's already C-registered, so no Transport hassle - just change over the C of R.

Contrary to what everyone says all the time, you don't need to be rich to fly aerobatics.

You just have to be up for the moment, which few people are. They prefer to talk, instead of doing.

Heads up when buying any aircraft with a Lycoming engine which may have sat for a while - check the camshaft for corrosion. Also, with nitrided cylinders, they can corrode, too. Many Pitts often sit for depressingly long periods of time, either for winter, or because their owners are afraid of them.

Heck, I remember when we bought our family Maule - I still have it - back in 1971. The previous owner was terrified of it. Sigh. Even almost 40 years ago, there was nobody around to give him some competent dual tailwheel instruction.

It is fairly basic and in good condition, that is all you really need to get started, has no transponder but has the longer fuse. One draw back to the S1-C is the 1050 gross compared to the 1150 for the S1-S.

[tiggermoth]

Dang...Do I ever wish I had a spare 20G's right now, that little guy is a nice looking bird.

Anybody wanna buy a 1957 C-172

[Hedley]

no transponder

Hopefully the new owner will fly someplace he won't need one. The lighter the aircraft is, the better. All you really need is a handheld comm (mounted securely!) with a crimped 50 ohm coax cable to an external whip antenna (very important). Wire the handheld comm power into the aircraft 12VDC with a 5 Amp circuit breaker (or fuse, if you're cheap). Use 22759 wire.

For electrical, I would get a lightweight battery (eg Odyssey) and lightweight B&C or Skytec starter. No alternator, no voltage regulator, but no hand-bombing. Plug a battery tender in when you land, leave it on permanently.

No vacuum pump, no gyros at all. Just altimeter, airspeed, G meter and maybe a slip/skid indicator (plumb bob). You need a few engine instruments: tach, oil pressure and oil temperature. Far better to spend your money on a 4 cylinder CHT/EGT meter, so when something goes wrong you can instantly diagnose it.

has the longer fuse(lage)

Nice.

PS I am told there are lots of guys that can give Pitts dual in Alberta, so learning to land it shouldn't be a problem.

PPS If you are into homebuilts, learn about the Odyssey PC680 battery:

http://www.aircraftspruce.com/catalog/e ... seydry.php

[cgzro]

And if it has the 180 you can run it on lower octane than 100LL so you won't be SOL if/when they stop making the 100LL. The AEIO-360 with the 200hp won't run on anything less than 100LL so I'll be up shxxt creek if/when that happens.

A good 20K for sure by the looks of it. Great fun for the money.

[adam325i]

It was awesome reading this! Im a 19 year old that loves aerobatics and right now ive devoted my life to it. I got my glider licence in 2008 with Air Cadets and won the "top glider pilot". In 2009 i got my private licence in 7 weeks in 45 hours and had the highest flight test score at the flight school. I am now spending every single day building my beloved airplane which is a laser type aircraft thats being modified. The plane is being built at Gilbert Custom Aircraft in Brantford Ontario. I work basically 5 days a week on it. and come home on weekends to do laundry ect lol. I am hoping to finsh this late spring/early summer. Compitition aerobatics is where I want to dominate in and hopefuly one day get into airshows down the road. Sounds like there are some people here that I could gain valuable advice and experince with my life venture!

Thanks

Adam

[Hedley]

Competition aerobatics is where I want to dominate in

Cool. Finish your airplane, and start flying Sportsman. Get some critiquing, and try to drown your engine with 100LL. Move up to Intermediate (not much of a jump, really) and fly, fly, fly. More critiquing.

Get used to negative G and step up to Advanced. More 100LL. More critiquing. Aim to win at regional contests, then your goal is to represent Canada at AWAC. You can do it in a Laser.

Move up to Unlimited, and represent Canada at the WAC.

Do it!

Back to the short term ... be choosy, as to who does the first flight in the Laser. You may not be the best choice. If you want some Pitts dual on landing & spin training, call me.

[Beefitarian]

I may need to get off this forum. That plane sounds way too good.

has the longer fuse(lage)

Nice.

PS I am told there are lots of guys that can give Pitts dual in Alberta, so learning to land it shouldn't be a problem.

Would the longer fuselage be better for tall folk? Any idea on costs for the Alberta Pitts dual training?

I wish I could find a nice maule for so low a price. I wonder if anyone has one they're doing tail wheel training on. Then again I'll need to find a better place to collect bottles first.

[Hedley]

If the Alberta people don't speak up - I'm told there is an active
chapter of Aerobatics Canada there, that puts on contests - you
could try Harv's Air, just south of Winnipeg, not too far from you:

http://www.harvsair.com/site/services/t ... atics.html

They have both Citabria and Pitts S-2B for tailwheel & aerobatic instruction.

[Beefitarian]

Many seasons ago there was a guy with one arm that did aerobatic instruction at YBW in a citabria. I figured I was a fair bit to massive for that. I was also actually flying CFC 172s regularly working on my PPL.

[Beefitarian]

I'm not interested in doing much aerobatics. I am a little interested in gaining some skill on a tailwheel and wouldn't mind learning some basics like doing a proper positive G aileron roll maybe a loop.

[Hedley]

I remember a guy in Central America, he did airshows in a Maule. Did everything including snap rolls. You could probably buy his cheap!

But seriously ... any tailwheel airplane (esp Maule) is going to have been groundlooped at some point in it's life. Well, except mine. It's no big deal if it's repaired correctly. Hint: check the main gear geometry for clues.