Anyone with info on conversions? I am very interested in JAA, I have an EU passport if that makes my life easier.
If anyone knows a little on US conversions, that might help as well.
thanks
JAA/US conversions
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wallypilot
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Here is what I know of converting to the JAA license: If you have a canadian cpl, then you have to do the full JAA theory. If you have a Canadian ATPL, you have to do less theory and fewer exams, but still a few months worth of work. If you have Canadian ATPL + 500 hours of multicrew time in an approved aircraft, you can avoid the MCC program which is required by the JAA ATPL. the mcc is Multicrew coordination course (or something like that) and it is 30ish hours in a multicrew sim (like a 737 or similar). With the Canadian ATPL, you can take a modular program, which means you only take the modules that you need to, rather than the entire JAA training program.
It's big bucks if you want the JAA ATPL. But probably worth it if you want to live in europe. I have looked into some schools, but as of yet have not seriously considered the program due to costs. I was looking at Oxford Aviation Training in the UK, and also TopFly in Barcelona. Oxford seems to be the best, but is also the priciest. I would probably do my theory at Oxford, and aircraft training somewhere else. There is a distance study program which would reduce the amount of time you have to spend at the actual school. But, you still have to go over there to do your exams and exam prep review classes.
EU passport makes it easier for job hunting, but as for taking the conversion program i don't think it matters if you have an EU passport or not.
Don't quote me on any of this stuff as it has been a year or 2 since i looked at it, but it gives you a reasonable idea of what to expect.
cheers
-wp
It's big bucks if you want the JAA ATPL. But probably worth it if you want to live in europe. I have looked into some schools, but as of yet have not seriously considered the program due to costs. I was looking at Oxford Aviation Training in the UK, and also TopFly in Barcelona. Oxford seems to be the best, but is also the priciest. I would probably do my theory at Oxford, and aircraft training somewhere else. There is a distance study program which would reduce the amount of time you have to spend at the actual school. But, you still have to go over there to do your exams and exam prep review classes.
EU passport makes it easier for job hunting, but as for taking the conversion program i don't think it matters if you have an EU passport or not.
Don't quote me on any of this stuff as it has been a year or 2 since i looked at it, but it gives you a reasonable idea of what to expect.
cheers
-wp
Last edited by wallypilot on Mon Sep 20, 2004 10:13 am, edited 1 time in total.
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bluesideup
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US convesion
Check out http://www.allatps.com, this is where I went to convert my Canadian ATPL over. Wallypilot is right in saying that if you have an ATPL it is alot less work.
The basic syllabis lasts 5 days. The first day you sit at a computer and memorize the correct answers to the exam. And then at the end of the day you allow yourself enough time to write. Then on the second day you are into the airplane. You will fly about 2-2.5 hours/day including the flight test on the fifth day. Training is done on the Piper Seminole.
This is a means to convert your licence but note that you do not really learn anything unless you happen to have a photgraphic memory. So if knowing the US regs is important you may want to get a copy of the US ATPL study guide and study ahead of time.
As far as the JAA licence is concerned, all I know about it is that it is pretty much a university course. A friend of mine from Finland began the home study program and they sent him (if I remember right) at least three if not more 3" -3 ring binders that were jam packed full. The JAA licence, unlike the Canadian, they expect you to actualy know something. For example I understand you are required to explain the working of an AI in detail, nor just some little ditty for a multipleguess exam. Or in other words the exams are all long answer.
I hope this helps!
B S U
The basic syllabis lasts 5 days. The first day you sit at a computer and memorize the correct answers to the exam. And then at the end of the day you allow yourself enough time to write. Then on the second day you are into the airplane. You will fly about 2-2.5 hours/day including the flight test on the fifth day. Training is done on the Piper Seminole.
This is a means to convert your licence but note that you do not really learn anything unless you happen to have a photgraphic memory. So if knowing the US regs is important you may want to get a copy of the US ATPL study guide and study ahead of time.
As far as the JAA licence is concerned, all I know about it is that it is pretty much a university course. A friend of mine from Finland began the home study program and they sent him (if I remember right) at least three if not more 3" -3 ring binders that were jam packed full. The JAA licence, unlike the Canadian, they expect you to actualy know something. For example I understand you are required to explain the working of an AI in detail, nor just some little ditty for a multipleguess exam. Or in other words the exams are all long answer.
I hope this helps!
B S U
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Always Moving
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JAA
Join Aviation Authority.
It is ridiculous, one of my friends did it(ATPL FAA to ATPL JAA) in Madrid, and he said at the end of 6 months of studying and 2h or 4h of small twin that the spanish pilot don not know how to fly, they are afraid of stalls, etc. (they know how, but they ahave not take the plane to the limit)
Theory.... a lot of it , but he said that most of the study is WORTHLESS
It is ridiculous, one of my friends did it(ATPL FAA to ATPL JAA) in Madrid, and he said at the end of 6 months of studying and 2h or 4h of small twin that the spanish pilot don not know how to fly, they are afraid of stalls, etc. (they know how, but they ahave not take the plane to the limit)
Theory.... a lot of it , but he said that most of the study is WORTHLESS
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wallypilot
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yeah, that doesn't surprise me. most european pilots are going straight into a commuter or regional job anyways, so it is autopilot all the way from wheels up to DH. the courses seem overly intensive, but how else can you make up for the average european flight school grad's lack of real world experience? not that filling their heads with theory replaces experience, but I am sure that the JAA would argue that it does!!!
-wp
-wpMy best advise would be to stay out of europe. It sucks! I'm not kidding, it doesn't really matter if you can fly or not as long as you know your theory. Get me outta here!!!
The written tests are multiple guess though. And the full ATPL course consists of 16 ring binders. Sixteen!
The written tests are multiple guess though. And the full ATPL course consists of 16 ring binders. Sixteen!
Heligeir, ur right, i would strongly advise to stay out of europe! The entire continent sucks bad. I live i England and am doing an aviation degree at Leeds university and what you guys are talking about with JAA (Joint Aviation Authority) is true, its a ridiculous amount of theory with next to no actual flying experience. The exams are hard and you actually have to have your head in a book the entire time whilst studying for them. As AlwaysMoving said, most of this is worthless... i cant quite understand why they need to fill your head with so much theory when most of it you forget anyway.
At the end of the day theory isnt going to get you far, which is the main reason i want to live over there and convert my JAA licenses into Canadian... plus, rental of most GA aircraft over here is roughly $250CAN per hour, which you will agree is a bit too high!
I would say that one of the big advantages of going JAA is the payout when you finally get a job. If you're looking specifically at ATPL positions the salary is in the region of £50,000 - £100,000+ (Capt.) working out at $110,000 - £225,000. Thats in the UK anyway, and 1st officer salary isnt too far behind. Obviously depends on which operator you go for but other than this i dont see any major advantages!
At the end of the day theory isnt going to get you far, which is the main reason i want to live over there and convert my JAA licenses into Canadian... plus, rental of most GA aircraft over here is roughly $250CAN per hour, which you will agree is a bit too high!
I would say that one of the big advantages of going JAA is the payout when you finally get a job. If you're looking specifically at ATPL positions the salary is in the region of £50,000 - £100,000+ (Capt.) working out at $110,000 - £225,000. Thats in the UK anyway, and 1st officer salary isnt too far behind. Obviously depends on which operator you go for but other than this i dont see any major advantages!
Converting
Be careful if you convert as many companies internationally are onto the less diligent JAA conversion authorities. (Greece,Spain)
The UK is the standard and likely the most difficult.
The UK is the standard and likely the most difficult.
Do you mean by this that some countries are easier to convert in?
I thought that JAA countries were supposed to have identical requirements?
Is there a list of all countries operating with the JAA? (I'm guessing the whole European Union, but could be wrong, and what about Switzerland?)
Thanks in advance,
Louis
I thought that JAA countries were supposed to have identical requirements?
Is there a list of all countries operating with the JAA? (I'm guessing the whole European Union, but could be wrong, and what about Switzerland?)
Thanks in advance,
Louis
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Always Moving
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If you want to find out more on JAA-JAR / CAA regulations have a look at a few websites, havent really had a detailed look myself, but im sure theres enough information in there somewhere!
http://www.caa.co.uk/
http://www.gaic.co.uk/regulations.htm
Or even:
http://www.iwannabeapilot.com !!!!!!!!
Hope this helps a bit.
http://www.caa.co.uk/
http://www.gaic.co.uk/regulations.htm
Or even:
http://www.iwannabeapilot.com !!!!!!!!
Hope this helps a bit.
JAA pilots
Probably who writes on this topic is a bit naive, i am an italian pilot wit also the canadian CPL. JAA regulations are often too complicated and everybody knows it. But european pilots are at the same level if not better than north american pilots.
Here all kids come out of flying school learning from an instructor wit 2-300 hours that beg for money. When they get their ATPL they have 1500 hours of local flight on the C150 but they know really well how to spin.
In europe you learn from instructor at the end of the career (my instructor had 13000 hrs. on military and cilvilian aviation). At 3-400 hours you can start to fly a jet and still you will be flying with captains with a lot of experience for many years. But at least when you come out of flying school you are a professional and at your first job they pay you as such.
The all industy here is based on amateur pilots (who make 20000$ to be a captain on a king air is an amateur, would you get an doctor that makes that money), until the pilots here don't realize that are considered next to nothig Canada remain a place where is easy to fly and do spins that is all
Here all kids come out of flying school learning from an instructor wit 2-300 hours that beg for money. When they get their ATPL they have 1500 hours of local flight on the C150 but they know really well how to spin.
In europe you learn from instructor at the end of the career (my instructor had 13000 hrs. on military and cilvilian aviation). At 3-400 hours you can start to fly a jet and still you will be flying with captains with a lot of experience for many years. But at least when you come out of flying school you are a professional and at your first job they pay you as such.
The all industy here is based on amateur pilots (who make 20000$ to be a captain on a king air is an amateur, would you get an doctor that makes that money), until the pilots here don't realize that are considered next to nothig Canada remain a place where is easy to fly and do spins that is all
European pilots
Probably who writes on this topic is a bit naive, i am an italian pilot wit also the canadian CPL. JAA regulations are often too complicated and everybody knows it. But european pilots are at the same level if not better than north american pilots.
Here all kids come out of flying school learning from an instructor wit 2-300 hours that beg for money. When they get their ATPL they have 1500 hours of local flight on the C150 but they know really well how to spin.
In europe you learn from instructor at the end of the career (my instructor had 13000 hrs. on military and cilvilian aviation). At 3-400 hours you can start to fly a jet and still you will be flying with captains with a lot of experience for many years. But at least when you come out of flying school you are a professional and at your first job they pay you as such.
The all industy here is based on amateur pilots (who make 20000$ to be a captain on a king air is an amateur, would you get an doctor that makes that money), until the pilots here don't realize that are considered next to nothig Canada remain a place where is easy to fly and do spins that is all
Here all kids come out of flying school learning from an instructor wit 2-300 hours that beg for money. When they get their ATPL they have 1500 hours of local flight on the C150 but they know really well how to spin.
In europe you learn from instructor at the end of the career (my instructor had 13000 hrs. on military and cilvilian aviation). At 3-400 hours you can start to fly a jet and still you will be flying with captains with a lot of experience for many years. But at least when you come out of flying school you are a professional and at your first job they pay you as such.
The all industy here is based on amateur pilots (who make 20000$ to be a captain on a king air is an amateur, would you get an doctor that makes that money), until the pilots here don't realize that are considered next to nothig Canada remain a place where is easy to fly and do spins that is all
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Northern Girl
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JAA
I wrote an outraged reply to Evalle but just deleted it all. What is the use with someone who thinks like this anyway?
" At least when you get out of flight school you will be a professional" - how about learning how to make some good old fashioned decisions on your OWN. When are you going to get that in Evalles scenario?? I do however, as I have posted before, see how great it would be for intructors to have a lifetime of experience to pass on to the student.
Enough from me - over to you Cat.
Have a nice day woncha
" At least when you get out of flight school you will be a professional" - how about learning how to make some good old fashioned decisions on your OWN. When are you going to get that in Evalles scenario?? I do however, as I have posted before, see how great it would be for intructors to have a lifetime of experience to pass on to the student.
Enough from me - over to you Cat.
Have a nice day woncha
JAA pilot
I learned more about decision making in Italy from an experience instructor than here from my 18 years old 500 hours instructor in Canada. Don't get me wrong, Canada is an amazing country and flying is very easy and affordble but, why a lawyer or a doctor are considered professional as soon they get out of school and make good money almost immediately, and pilot are required to have the same level of professionalism but are considered nothing until you make it to a big airline? I spent 60000 dollars for my licence (same than university) but if i look around there is no place where i can use it. My old instructor here in Canada went to Emirates on Dash 8 and made 80000$US, back in Canada on a 737 made 32000$canadian!!!!!! is that ridiculous? now is captain in austrian airline, he make good money and he can focus on his career and flying and not worry about bills anymore. And sorry but Europe is a beautiful place to live...
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TopperHarley
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TC,
A friend of mine told me it will cost at a minimum Canadian $30,000. From other's experiences, it will likely cost a little more.
As far as getting a job... you will need to have the right to live and work in the prospective country. I believe an EU Passport will do.
A friend of mine told me it will cost at a minimum Canadian $30,000. From other's experiences, it will likely cost a little more.
As far as getting a job... you will need to have the right to live and work in the prospective country. I believe an EU Passport will do.
"Never travel faster than your guardian angel can fly." - Mother Theresa
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Always Moving
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it depends..........
With an FAA ATP,(TC ATP same procedure I am pretty sure) my friend did it (VALIDATE) to the JAR (in Spain) for like 10K EUR, lots of worthless studying, it took him 9 months.
If you go to PPRUNE you will find exactly what you looking for with names, times school etc, and probably here too.
If you go to PPRUNE you will find exactly what you looking for with names, times school etc, and probably here too.
I have looked into this too as I have an EU passport. I have a couple of links to places over here that can do the training. If anybody wants them PM me.
As far as cost goes, I don't think it's going to cost you $30,000 but $10,000 might not be unrealistic.
There is a school in the states where you can write study for (either with them or through distance learning,) and then write the exams. Once those are done, you have to actually go over to a JAA country and do 15 hours of instrument training and do your ride. This is where the majority of the dinero comes in. That is the kicker, you must do the flight training over there for the instrument stuff.
Of course, if you have an ICAO ATP it is a little easier. And if you have 500 hours of two-crew flight time (in an aircraft that requires two crewmembers,) then you can just convalidate!
As far as cost goes, I don't think it's going to cost you $30,000 but $10,000 might not be unrealistic.
There is a school in the states where you can write study for (either with them or through distance learning,) and then write the exams. Once those are done, you have to actually go over to a JAA country and do 15 hours of instrument training and do your ride. This is where the majority of the dinero comes in. That is the kicker, you must do the flight training over there for the instrument stuff.
Of course, if you have an ICAO ATP it is a little easier. And if you have 500 hours of two-crew flight time (in an aircraft that requires two crewmembers,) then you can just convalidate!
"Hell, I'll fly up your ass if the money's right!"
Orlando Jones - Say It Isn't So
Orlando Jones - Say It Isn't So
thanks for the info
thanks for all the input. here is what I have found out, things are strict 14 exams and all the theory. I found a permit to fly for one year, I believe you just need to fill out a form and send in a log book a loop hole of sorts. I did, however, get some inside info from the ex head of JAA in switzerland that the rules will be slacking on conversions in the not so distant future.
I ended up biting the bullet and getting an instructor rating, I figured it could'nt hurt and its one more badge on my shoulder.
anyone need a class 4 with float time?
I ended up biting the bullet and getting an instructor rating, I figured it could'nt hurt and its one more badge on my shoulder.
anyone need a class 4 with float time?
I find it funny how some of you are making disparaging comments about the JAA licence and the european airline industry. I'm from Canada, did all of my original licences at my local flying club. Guess what....NO JOBS!!!
So I did some research and studied for the JAA ATPL exams. Now Im flying a B737NG for a European airline. Say what you want about the JAA or the european airline industry in general, but if I was still back in Canada, i'd be lucky to be in the right seat of a king air.
So I did some research and studied for the JAA ATPL exams. Now Im flying a B737NG for a European airline. Say what you want about the JAA or the european airline industry in general, but if I was still back in Canada, i'd be lucky to be in the right seat of a king air.
Last edited by Chuck D on Wed Apr 06, 2005 8:20 am, edited 1 time in total.
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wallypilot
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can anyone comment on the job opportunities in the UK right now if one was to convert to the CAA ATPL? what could one expect once you complete the conversion? 3000 hour pilot, UK passport, no jet time, no heavy time, but TC ATPL.
Also, in order to work as a pilot in the UK, do you have to have a CAA license or can you have JAA as well?
thanks in advance
-wp
Also, in order to work as a pilot in the UK, do you have to have a CAA license or can you have JAA as well?
thanks in advance
-wp
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Conquest Driver
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