Dual hours vs. being a passenger...

[TobaWings]

What is the stipulation regarding the recording of time passed in the right seat of a plane, like a caravan? Suppose I am a pilot with low hours and sit on the right seat and ask a few questions throughout the flight, but don't fly. Is that dual? When is someone "dual" and when is someone a passenger? I've heard the hours can not be counted to the ATPL (or limited to a low number) but it would still count for helping with insurance, and total time.

[Tim]

dual is with a flight instructor on board, or someone else qualfied to provide training. for example, you dont need to be an instructor to teach instrument ratings provided you meet the experience listed here and it would be logged as dual

i think you can log up to 5 hrs of 'dual' as famil flying with a CPL, but didn't bother to look up the ref

but in general you can't just sit in a plane with another pilot and call it dual

dual hours are credited towards total time for the ppl, cpl and atpl the same as pic (although you do need a certain amound of pic for each license), but in the situation you describe you are a passenger, not a crew member.

[TobaWings]

Okay so a pilot with lots of hours on the caravan would be someone qualified to provide training. I have a cpl. I'm asking questions and observing the PIC, which is valuable if a pilot aims to fly that plane eventually. Why shouldn't it be dual? Where is this clarified?

So what is the actual definition of whether it is dual or not, whether it can be logged?

What about getting insured for the plane? Let's say the min hours for insurance is 1000TT. Can you be "insured" or 'allowed' to train with a qualified PIC if you have less than 1000 hours (using that number as an example)?

[AuxBatOn]

I do not believe you can log dual, or provide training on a revenue flight with passengers on board.

[North Shore]

C'mon, dude, use some reasoning here. A Caravan is a bigger, more complex 172. When you got your licences, the 'dual' training that you received in said 172 was when you were sitting in the left seat, doing the flying, while your instructor was sitting in the right, doing the talking. Same situation here, except you are sitting in the right, and being talked to. Therefore, Pilot = PIC; you = knowledgeable passenger.

I can understand the desire to start climbing the 'flying hours mountain', but this is a false start..

[2R]

The company has to have two crew SOPs for the Van for the right seat pilot to log time.
The right seat pilot must have a PCC as well or the occupant is a PAX and cannot log the time.
Depends on the company if that seat is a good place to learn .Some companies have mentored a lot of good pilots from that seat onto bigger and better things.Some companies just treat them as flying loaders.
Ask the pilots what happened to the last pilot ,If they are still flying there it would be worth your while.If they tell you that the last guys where lazy and useless RUN LIKE FOOK .
If they tell you the last pilot is now flying as Captain then sign up and do your best ,Cause when that pilot moves so might you.
Enjoy the ride

[trey kule]

but in general you can't just sit in a plane with another pilot and call it dua

darn right...most of the new pilots nowadays sit in the right seat with another pilot and log it as PIC.

to the original poster. If you are not trolling, give your head a shake. You dont learn to fly a Caravan, (or any other complex plane..and by complex I am referring to emergency procedures, standby flaps and electrical systems, radar, de-ice etc. by sitting in the right seat . The problem is that the one liner know it alls refer to it a a big 206. Never been in a 206 myself that had full deice, radar, standby electrical, standby flap....and if there are any around, I think they might be few and far between.The exceptions, not the rule.

Do yourself a big favor and dont try and fool yourself or others with log book entries. If you want to ride around for the fun of it great. You will probably learn something if you try. But dont think that this is really learning how to fly a Caravan..or any other plane. And unless you are getting dedicated instruction with proper technical training you are making yourself both a danger to yourself and others, and becoming a liar in your logbook. Do it right. You wont regret it in the long run. There are lots of CADORS about pilots who managed to BS their way into a company until something went wrong.

[Tim]

toba since you seem like youre trying to find your way around the 'problem' of logging time (presumably to get a job without the qualifications or experience they're asking for) i suggest you run your idea by TC. they will clear up any misconceptions you have about logging dual.

[Hedley]

I could quote a bunch of CARs, I suppose ....

But a more pragmatic response would be that if you have
to ask if you are pax or receiving dual, you're almost
certainly a pax

[Rockie]

This is the CAR's definition of "Dual"

"dual instruction flight time" means the flight time during which a person is receiving flight instruction from a person qualified in accordance with section 425.21 of the Personnel Licensing and Training Standards respecting Flight Training; (temps d’instruction de vol en double commande)

You have to be receiving dual for the purpose of something, and the person instructing you has to be properly qualified. You can look up CASS 425.21 and figure out for yourself what the purpose of the instruction was and whether or not the person you were flying with was properly qualified. But I can tell you, you will not convince anyone that what you were doing was receiving flight instruction or acting as a flight crew member. (Hint: "lots of hours" on a caravan doesn't qualify them as an instructor).

Your choice here is either pencil whipping your logbook which is what you are proposing, or actually getting the flying time.

[sakism]

(Hint: "lots of hours" on a caravan doesn't qualify them as an instructor).

Actually, "a few hours" in a caravan does qualify them to instruct on Caravans. 10 hours, actually.

CAR 425.21, subpart 7:
(7) A person who conducts flight training toward the issuance of an aircraft type rating shall:

(a) in the case of training for a holder of an aeroplane pilot permit or pilot licence:
(amended 2006/12/14; previous version)

(i) be the holder of a Commercial Pilot Licence - Aeroplane or an Airline Transport Pilot Licence - Aeroplane; and
(amended 2005/12/01; previous version)

(ii) have experience of not less than 50 hours flight time on the class of aeroplane used for the training, of
which not less than 10 hours must be on the aeroplane type;

Now, I know one doesn't need a type rating for a Caravan, but none of the other subsections of 425.21 apply even remotely - so as I read it it's this or no qualifications at all.

[Tim]

actually sakism, only passing an instructor flight test qualifies you as an instructor

[sakism]

Only RPP, PPL, CPL, night rating, instructor rating and aerobatics require an Instructor Rating to teach.

I am training captain for our company and haven't had an instructor rating in years. Read all of 425.21 for the details. If you were simply pointing out an error in my syntax - I have edited my previous post to remove that error. Of course 10 hours on a Caravan does not make him a Rated Flight Instructor - it does, however, qualify him to teach on a Caravan.

Imagine your average instructor giving dual instruction on Caravans, King Airs, etc?????

[Rockie]

You're a training pilot because your company designated you one. Most pilots meet the minimum requirement but they need to be designated by their company, and in many cases undergo specific training as well as a company monitor to ensure they do the job properly. Just having a slew of hours on type in no way makes you a training pilot.

[Spokes]

from the AIM

3.7.3 In-flight Instruction (Dual): Licensed Pilots

(a) The holder of a valid commercial or airline transport pilot licence may give in-flight instruction for familiarization, refresher and instrument flight training, provided the pilot receiving the instruction holds a valid pilot licence endorsed for the type or class of aircraft in the same category as the aircraft used, and the person providing the instrument flight training meets the requirements specified in CAR 425.21(7). This authority does not permit category conversion training, e.g. aeroplane to helicopter, gyroplane to aeroplane, etc.

(b) The flight time acquired under (a) may be credited to the pilot-in-command as pilot-in-command time, and as dual flight time to the pilot receiving the training.

(c) Not more than 3 hr of familiarization flight time acquired for any type or class of aircraft may be credited towards the flight time requirements for a higher type of licence.

also...

3.7.4 Instrument Flying Practice

(a) When licensed pilots are engaged in instrument flying practice with an appropriately qualified pilot, only the designated pilot-in-command may be credited with pilot-in-command flight time.

(b) The pilot undertaking instrument practice with an appropriately qualified pilot, if not the designated pilot-in-command, may be credited with dual flight time.

(c) The safety pilot, if not the designated pilot-in-command, may be credited with co-pilot flight time if the certificate of airworthiness requires a co-pilot on the type of aircraft being used.

[TobaWings]

Thanks for all the responses. And thankyou especially to those that quoted sources and not just opinions. It seems Spokes' quote sums it up, no? If I'm rated, and the flight is for familiarization, etc. it can be logged as dual. I think it would be a valuable experience to sit right seat to a knowledgeable pilot, observing intently, asking questions, and absorbing technique. And it seemed to me that there could be a chance those hours could count for total time.

Cheers.

[A2G]

I was always slightly confused by this as well. I understand that for the big licenses, dual time from someone with an instructor rating is required, but where does it say who can teach all the different ratings? I know it's somewhere in the CARs, but I can't seem to find the specifics, like for sea rating, PPC/PCC etc.

Another question, is that I haven't flown floats in over 4 years, so when I next go and fly floats, do I log it as PIC or Dual? Also while I'm at it, what's the currency requirements for floats again?

[iflyforpie]

I have sat right seat on some interesting aircraft on test flights. Held the controls, did some maneuvers, even some landings on planes I wasn't checked out on. But I never logged any of it because of how it would look.

"You got some time on the SC.7? Who'd you work for?"

"Well....actually....I was just an AME on a test flight and got some stick time..."

Some guys at Flightcraft logged their CT-33 rides. If I went on one I would have logged it for the novelty; since the guy flying was a very qualified instructor, you got actual stick time, and I would never fly the aircraft commercially (or ever again).

Ultimately, will a few hours make a difference in the long run? Probably not. But your familiarity with a Caravan might make training easier once you are getting typed on one. Just don't bring bad habits.

[Stinky]

I've heard of a guy who logged a bunch of caravan time sitting right seat with his buddy who was on the job. This guy later had an interview with the company and when they saw all of his time on their plane the interview quickly ended.

Making a note in your log book isn't a bad idea. When I first started out I had a similar opportunity and I made the entry in the logbook with a few notes about what I had seen and learned. The time I entered on the far right so that it would never be included in my total time. I don't think anybody would take issue with that, especially if you put in the notes you were a passenger.

[Tim]

Famil is ex 1 in the PPL syllabus, not sitting in a plane and getting familiar with it. I will suggest again that you call TC and ask their take on it. As pointed out already you can only log up to 3 hours anyways, and you already have some in your logbook.

this may help your understanding of what familiarazation is

Objective

To introduce the student to the physical sensations of flight

http://www.tc.gc.ca/civilaviation/gener ... II/Ex1.htm

Go get a job and earn you hours like (the majority of) the rest of us, however learn what you can from your friend - just don't log it.

[Tim]

I was always slightly confused by this as well. I understand that for the big licenses, dual time from someone with an instructor rating is required, but where does it say who can teach all the different ratings? I know it's somewhere in the CARs, but I can't seem to find the specifics, like for sea rating, PPC/PCC etc.

Another question, is that I haven't flown floats in over 4 years, so when I next go and fly floats, do I log it as PIC or Dual? Also while I'm at it, what's the currency requirements for floats again?

sakism has an excerpt from the CARs youre looking for above. (425.21)

[Rockie]

I was always slightly confused by this as well. I understand that for the big licenses, dual time from someone with an instructor rating is required, but where does it say who can teach all the different ratings? I know it's somewhere in the CARs, but I can't seem to find the specifics, like for sea rating, PPC/PCC etc.

Another question, is that I haven't flown floats in over 4 years, so when I next go and fly floats, do I log it as PIC or Dual? Also while I'm at it, what's the currency requirements for floats again?

sakism has an excerpt from the CARs youre looking for above. (425.21)

425.21 is not a regulation. It is a standard that must be met to comply with the regulation.

[Tim]

I was always slightly confused by this as well. I understand that for the big licenses, dual time from someone with an instructor rating is required, but where does it say who can teach all the different ratings? I know it's somewhere in the CARs, but I can't seem to find the specifics, like for sea rating, PPC/PCC etc.

Another question, is that I haven't flown floats in over 4 years, so when I next go and fly floats, do I log it as PIC or Dual? Also while I'm at it, what's the currency requirements for floats again?

sakism has an excerpt from the CARs youre looking for above. (425.21)

425.21 is not a regulation. It is a standard that must be met to comply with the regulation.

yes...but if i understood the post correctly, he was looking for the details that are outlined in 425.21

[hairdo]

Thanks for all the responses. And thankyou especially to those that quoted sources and not just opinions. It seems Spokes' quote sums it up, no? If I'm rated, and the flight is for familiarization, etc. it can be logged as dual. I think it would be a valuable experience to sit right seat to a knowledgeable pilot, observing intently, asking questions, and absorbing technique. And it seemed to me that there could be a chance those hours could count for total time.

Cheers.

Toba, it would seem that you made up your mind before you asked the question. Having found something that met the semblence of the answer you were looking for, you found yourself justified.

With reference to Spokes quote, was the purpose of the flight for familiarization? Or was it a revenue pax/cargo run?

What those who are quoting "opinions" are trying to tell you, is be very careful in how you log hours. Although that may get you off to a great start, someone will find out someday, and then questions will start being asked, even about the real hours.

My simple advise. Be careful.

[niss]

Does VFR-OTT require an instructor or just a commercial pilot with IFR?

Only RPP, PPL, CPL, night rating, instructor rating and aerobatics require an Instructor Rating to teach.