Liberals Vow to Cancel Jet Fighter Project

[Nark]

I realize that through some inadequacy issues you feel the need to define yourself through your service time. Its funny that since I don't feel the need to do the same you assume that I have no relevance.

We are watching an empire crumble. An empire that pursued an aggressive foreign policy, that did so while spending massive amounts of debt on high tech weapons. Those high tech weapons are proving themselves inappropriate. If you honestly believe that things are any better in Afghanistan, the middle east or in fact the world as a result of the deployment of these amazing weapons you are delusional at best.

I wear my Eagle Globe and Anchor as a badge of honor (it's my avatar if you're wondering). I do feel that I have developed as a human being thanks in part to my service.

If we were talking about a Norseman v. Beaver. Otter, by all means I wouldn't have much of a leg to stand on, in this case. But we're not talking about that are we?

I pointed out inefficiencies in what you stated. Then I got a little more aggressive in my prose. If you can't handle that, suck it up.

The multi billions spent in high tech weapons has saved countless lives. As I stated earlier, I personally avoided a firefight because several AH-1W Cobras were orbiting overhead, waiting to unleash a shitstorm on the insurgents that just laid down some harassing fire.

Another facet of multi billion dollars spent is the various UAV programs. One of which hunted down and gave coordinates to kill the number 2 bad guy in my Area of Operations, while in Iraq.

Here's the scenario:
Auxbaton jumps into his 30 year old A model F-18. It breaks before he can get in the air, because lets face it, it's a maintenance pig.
A much more handsome "Old Fog Ducker" is driving along in his RG-31 Nyala vic, when it gets disabled by an IED. A shitstorm unfolds. Contact, left and right.
OFD says to himself, "I'll call in some CAS as it was briefed in the SMEAC" So OFD tells his radioman, "Call in the zoomies!" Call goes out to the AWAC's, but auxbaton is still on the ground in Kandahar, and a Marine flight has to come in from 150 miles away, creating a void in CAP coverage.

So this multi billion deal is money well spent. It's a picture that isn't painted very well in this forum of Navajo and King Air pilots, who don't know jack shit about military flying.





And yes, the Marine version is VSTOL.

[alctel]

The multi billions spent in high tech weapons has saved countless lives. As I stated earlier, I personally avoided a firefight because several AH-1W Cobras were orbiting overhead, waiting to unleash a shitstorm on the insurgents that just laid down some harassing fire.

107,000 dead civilians (just from Iraq) would disagree with you. Or they would, if they were not in pieces. So would the 18,000-44,000 (depending what numbers you use) Americans who die EACH YEAR from lack of health coverage, due to the US spending almost 65% of its GNP on 'defense' related spending. So would the people in London who I pulled pieces of out of the wreckage of a tube train who were blown up in protest against the Iraq war. Or the ~60 people at that Afghan wedding who were blown up.

You get the idea.


edit - just to clarify I am not knocking your service - you obviously feel you are doing the right thing and are trying to protect the people you love and I respect that, but I can't let saying something like 'The multi billions spent in high tech weapons has saved countless lives' pass.

[Nark]

Sure we could have all stayed at home, like on Spet 11th. Good thing no one died that day.
Or as you said, July 7th, 2005 in London.
Or March 11th 2004 in Madrid.

I went to high school in Canada, but university in the US. I'm not sure where you went to school, but $685 billion of 14.72 trillion dollars, isn't quite 65%.

I'll start counting. I'm willing to bet 1 Marine in my patrol that day was saved thanks to the sound of American Might flying over head.

[Mrs.Robinson]

I'm willing to bet 1 Marine in my patrol that day was saved thanks to the sound of American Might flying over head.

I bet American arrogance has killed more Americans throughout the past decades then all the Lives saved by American toys.

[Nark]

For example:
http://www.cmohs.org/

Those are the same arrogant bastards who don't sit idly by. Pretty much quantifying American culture.

Heres a tidbit that rarely gets covered by the CBC, who do you think was first on scene to offer aid after the Tsunami of 2004? Or the Pakistani earthquake in 2005, or the earthquake in Haiti.

Look no further than STL's photos of Haiti. Who gave him a ride down there?

Look at what happened to Baghdad the second Saddam's regime toppled. Look at New Orleans after Katrina.
Human nature needs someone to look after them. Who else is stepping up to the plate after the Cold War? Please mention the UN, as if I don't have enough fodder for this thread...

[trampbike]

CAS Lieutenant-General André Deschamps’ Appearance Before the Standing Committee on National Defence
http://www.forces.gc.ca/site/pri/2/pro- ... es-eng.asp

[55+]

The United States of America is living off it's credit card while at the same time, continuing to cut it's tax base and support(spend on) it's bloated Military Industrial Complex. Somewhere,sometime and someplace it will all come crashing down as will happen to us individuals if we live off our Visa, max it out to the point we can't meet the minimum monthly payments. Our country is living from it's Visa as well but hasn't maxed it out yet but the proposed military spending is gonna inch us closer.

Military procurement always was,will now and continue to be.......... but there has to be a limit and 16B ++ for those things has to be questioned period!!!

[winds_in_flight_wtf]

I'm willing to bet 1 Marine in my patrol that day was saved thanks to the sound of American Might flying over head.

I bet American arrogance has killed more Americans throughout the past decades then all the Lives saved by American toys.

Quite the bullshit gamble / troll statement you just made. If they were as arrogant as you the human race would be extinct. It's easy to attack the world power - just as easy as it was 200 -300 years ago. But let's say the US lacked as much aptitude and common sense as let’s say …you? …well then I would submit that we would be living in a very scary world. Never mind the ability to sit here and type on the internet…or the innovation of fly by wire controls (Canadian),… which exist throughout millions of platforms around the world. I rarely hear how much good the United States has done for others? I would rather a USA world power than a Saudi Arabian one, or a Chinese one at that. My point… you can say the same stupid thing about any country, whether it be Canada, U.K. USA, Germany Etc. You have some type of interaction day by day – (excluding being a knob on AvCanada), which was a direct result of “American’s and Their Toys” You also- evidently, lack education. If things were as simple as

I'm willing to bet 1 Marine in my patrol that day was saved thanks to the sound of American Might flying over head.

I bet American arrogance has killed more Americans throughout the past decades then all the Lives saved by American toys.

Than you would actually have a place in this world as opposed to trolling disgusting BS in these forums.

[The Old Fogducker]

Don't let the namby-pambies get to you Nark....you're doing just fine ... like a Grizzly flinging off barking Beagles.

If you can withstand a DI in your face, these left-wing peaceniks are worthy of little more than a smirk ... or perhaps a chortle.

Remember, you fought to protect the ability of clowns to open their mouths and look foolish.

OFD

[trampbike]

these left-wing peaceniks are worthy of little more than a smirk

It's time to cease that left/right wing oversimplification and abusive generalization. On a whole lot of points, some might consider me to be a left-winger (and I generally vote this way too). It's interesting thought that you and I probably agree on a great quantities of subjects (JSF procurement being one of them).

Left/Right simplification leads nowhere, and anyone sitting on any of the far opposite sides of this scale has a great chance of being plain wrong. I'm sure you know better than seeing the world as either black or white.

[modi13]

I'm willing to bet 1 Marine in my patrol that day was saved thanks to the sound of American Might flying over head.

I bet American arrogance has killed more Americans throughout the past decades then all the Lives saved by American toys.

A lot of French, German and Italian civilians died because of the Allies in the Second World War. I guess we shouldn't have been there either...

[The Old Fogducker]

Thats right modi ... we should have just left them to their own devices until Adolph or Joe asked us Canucks to come in as Peacekeepers....after all, isn't that our role? Heaven forbid we should actually make peace.

Or, maybe those uproarious, wild and zany fellas in the Reichstag would have just left us alone since we didn't attack the Nazis ... after all, they were just the product of a duly elected government, and if we hadn't gotten all "haughty and hot-headed" over the whole thing and fired off a few ill-considered rounds at some SS guys, I'm sure they would never have hurt any of our population, and would have done just fine over there in Europe. Oh, and Weapons of Mass Destruction ... the Vengence Weapons? Adolph wouldn't have proceded with those programs because deep in his soul, he would have realized they were wrong....a crime against humanity. Surely, he desired being nominated for The Nobel Peace Prize, and wouldn't have done anything to place that nomination in jeopardy.

Ever see the movie 633 Squaqrdron? It's about a Mosquito Squadron raid on the heavy water plant. The German scientists were behind us in North America, so why did we jump the gun on that little thing eh? Faulty intel, and fear-mongering by government and extremist mainstream media I'd guess. As I type this mini-chronicle of WW2 history, I'm coming to the conclusion .... We went to war on a lie!

Oh no!!!! All those poor millions of innocent civilians that did nothing ...absolutely nothing .... all dead ... all because of Winston Churchill feeding the world a big lie! There were no WMDs! For shame.

And those members of the Imperial Japanese Forces .... now why, oh why did we ever give those fun-loving fellas a rough time? After all, what the heck did they ever do to us, huh? They attacked The Great Satan ... the United States of America, not Canada. That little thing of them taking Canadian prisoners at Hong Kong was likely all just a propaganda plot anyway ... and when those Hong Kong Vets came home weighing about 85 pounds, they were likely just kept in some Geisha House and they were all ribs because they were exhausted by making out with girls for four or five years, twelve times a day and only being fed sushi and rice huh?

The Old Fogducker

[SunWuKong]

Again an interesting topic.
And a bit sensitive. Alright I will be frank: even a jet fighter project is a bit overrated. It is not about that anymore. The fact is that most of the western countries are just a logistic support for the US army. Nothing less, but nothing more. Is that good or bad? The truth is I don't know, I just know the facts.
Why can I say that? Outside of the US, only one country in the world has an army that can produce alone and master the most advanced space and nuclear technology, that is france, which has for example the only nuclear powered aircraft carrier outside the US. Speaking about that it is funny to observe the UK recent move in order grab the french nuclear technology, funny if we remember their respective position concerning the last Iraq war, see here:http://www.guardian.co.uk/politics/2010 ... -agreement

Maybe the point is not really the ability to produce a jet fighter or not, the question is having or not a real independant army that would give an independant voice to its country. If the answer is no, well jet fighter project or not it really doesn't matter. The world is (or is about to be) 10 step ahead in the space/nuclear/drone world anyway.

[Moose47]

It would appear that some of the posters here are using this forum to spout off typical left-wing bleeding heart anti-American verbal diarrhea.

How come you only harp on the negative and never the positive things the U.S. has done.

Let's see now, how about all the American-made war material used by the allies including Canada during the Second World War for a starter. Without it, the war would have certainly gone on much longer or perhaps even won by the Germans. Same thing in the Pacific against the Japanese.

How many of you know that the U.S.A.F. and in part the U.S. Navy provided the first line of air defence in Canada during the 1950's and 1960's with fighter squadrons, radar squadrons and early airborne warning units based on Canada's East Coast and other parts of the country?

Since the end of the Second World War, the U. S. has provided humanitarian support to countless countries around the world, often being the first in and last out. Many of those countries did not share the same ideology but that did not stop the U. S. from coming to their aid.

The American military helped win the Cold War against the Soviet Union and her Warsaw Pact allies. Yes the U. S. spent an incredible amount of money to do so, but it worked. The Russians blinked first and the wall came a tumbling down.

I am proud to have served both countries. I ask, have you ever put your ass on the line for your country?

I know I am wasting my time with some of you, but what the hell, I needed to say something in defence of the United States.

Semper Fi

[Fling Wing]

Canada would probably no longer exist if we didn't live next too the US. As a duel citizen, I'll join the US military before Canada because I know the decision makers aren't worried about how much the body armor's going to cost.

[SunWuKong]

Let's see now, how about all the American-made war material used by the allies including Canada during the Second World War for a starter.

While I agree with the idea of your post, let's not get completely naive. US stayed neutral as long as they could during WW2 in order to make business, north america being the only western area geographically out of reach of the nazi german, so the only area being able to produce peacefully, giving the biggest economic boom of all time, (google "cash and carry" if you want to know more), the Roosevelt policy at that time was to help the "allies" only if they had cash to pay.

And about the "humanitarian support", get your fact straight because Europe is giving twice as much as the US.

It scares me when I see people 100% against one country or one system, like the ones defenitely against the US, and by doing so they forget, as Moose said, the important contribution of the US in the world peace, but it also scares me when I listen people being naive or entirely reading our nowaday world under the sole light of their outdated WW2 knowledge they got from the movie industry.

[The Old Fogducker]

The US remained neutral because that was the political will of the general populace at the time ... they didn't want to get sucked into another of "Europe's Wars." Further, "The Bund" was quite well supported in the US.

I suggest you do some reading on the period.

Ever hear of a little known program called "Lend-Lease?"

How about as an example .... US Army Air Corps pilots flying aircraft to Pembina, North Dakota ... Canadians pushing them across the border, and taking off to head for another tiny program of no consequence ... "The British Commonwealth Air Training Program."

To suggest the US remained out of the war exclusively for business purposes and only sold to people with cash on the barrel head is typical of someone ignorant of the time period, or who has been reading too many articles about WW2 written by Martin Sheen.

Reading the excellent book, "A Man Called Intrepid" ... about a Winnipegger, William Stevenson will give you a little idea of the goings on during the period you speak of.

OFD

[SunWuKong]

Ever hear of a little known program called "Lend-Lease?"

Yes I did, and much before I told you to google "cash and carry", "lend-lease" took place when the US got all the cash they possibly could from their allies.

Side note: to learn history, I prefer university and their library, encyclopedias, historian teachers than movies/novels/biography and other best sellers.

[Mrs.Robinson]

I'm willing to bet 1 Marine in my patrol that day was saved thanks to the sound of American Might flying over head.

I bet American arrogance has killed more Americans throughout the past decades then all the Lives saved by American toys.

Quite the bullshit gamble / troll statement you just made. If they were as arrogant as you the human race would be extinct. It's easy to attack the world power - just as easy as it was 200 -300 years ago. But let's say the US lacked as much aptitude and common sense as let’s say …you? …well then I would submit that we would be living in a very scary world. Never mind the ability to sit here and type on the internet…or the innovation of fly by wire controls (Canadian),… which exist throughout millions of platforms around the world. I rarely hear how much good the United States has done for others? I would rather a USA world power than a Saudi Arabian one, or a Chinese one at that. My point… you can say the same stupid thing about any country, whether it be Canada, U.K. USA, Germany Etc. You have some type of interaction day by day – (excluding being a knob on AvCanada), which was a direct result of “American’s and Their Toys” You also- evidently, lack education. If things were as simple as

I'm willing to bet 1 Marine in my patrol that day was saved thanks to the sound of American Might flying over head.

I bet American arrogance has killed more Americans throughout the past decades then all the Lives saved by American toys.

Than you would actually have a place in this world as opposed to trolling disgusting BS in these forums.

Millions of dead civilians in Vietnam. How was this a civilized action?

Why where American officials not allowed to use the word Genocide in rawanda



http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Covert_Uni ... ge_actions

Name me one present country that is responsible for more civilian deaths then the USA since 1950.

Using previous and future Good actions does not justify murder.

How many Iranians died in the war with Iraq? 1 million and maybe another million Iraqis. Who Enabled Iraq to Attack Iran? Who enabled the gassing of the Kurds? who enabled Osama?

No wonder The Iranians hate the USA. Bloody coups, millions dead. But you think that they should be grateful for this.

American Administrations since 1950 Would give Stalin and Hitler a run for there money in death totals. But you say it's OK, because Sometimes the USA does the nice things.

[Nark]

I'll bet you've never left the comfort of Canada, or a hotel room in Mexico. But I'm sure you've seen a couple documentaries, so you know how the world turns.

Cool.

[G3]

Attn. Mrs. Robinson,

To answer your query for Post 1950:

-Stalin died in 1953 and was in power until his death, some historians attribute to him over his reign of the USSR over 40 Million deaths plus millions more forced into deportations.
-Mao Zedong, PRC, 10's of Millions killed in his "Cultural Revolution" and the adherance to his "Little Red Book"
-Rwanda, yes look to the United States but not the US Government but the UN headquarters in New York City, Kofi Annan's name should ring a bell
-Pol Pot, in Cambodia, you might of heard about his policies euphomistically refered to as the "Killing Fields,
-How about the former Yugoslavia and all its ethnic cleansing, the peace loving EU stood by and did nothing to stop it.
-I could talk about Israel and it' expansionistic border policies against its neighbors through the use of terror in the late forties (1948+) and 1950's
-How the Belgian Congo, ne. Zaire, Ne. DRC, and its protectorite standing by during decades of civil war and gang violence.
-Lets not forget the years of civil war in the 1990's in Sierra Leonne funded by a Canadian Diamond Mining Company utilising the services of a London Based Private Army Suppliying arms and Training for the illegal army fighting for the diposed Dictator who was a guest of the French government in Paris.
-How about Cuba in Angola, I had the "pleasure" to witness that first hand.
-Lets not forget about South Africa in Namibia.
-Robert Mugabe In Zimbabwe
-Darfur in Sudan

These are only a few I can think of off the top of my head, I am sure there are many more examples I am forgetting.

You make me ashamed to think you also call yourself a Canadian when you espouse hatred to one of Canadas Most important Allies.

[Mrs.Robinson]

Attn. Mrs. Robinson,

To answer your query for Post 1950:

-Stalin died in 1953 and was in power until his death, some historians attribute to him over his reign of the USSR over 40 Million deaths plus millions more forced into deportations.
-Mao Zedong, PRC, 10's of Millions killed in his "Cultural Revolution" and the adherance to his "Little Red Book"
-Rwanda, yes look to the United States but not the US Government but the UN headquarters in New York City, Kofi Annan's name should ring a bell
-Pol Pot, in Cambodia, you might of heard about his policies euphomistically refered to as the "Killing Fields,
-How about the former Yugoslavia and all its ethnic cleansing, the peace loving EU stood by and did nothing to stop it.
-I could talk about Israel and it' expansionistic border policies against its neighbors through the use of terror in the late forties (1948+) and 1950's
-How the Belgian Congo, ne. Zaire, Ne. DRC, and its protectorite standing by during decades of civil war and gang violence.
-Lets not forget the years of civil war in the 1990's in Sierra Leonne funded by a Canadian Diamond Mining Company utilising the services of a London Based Private Army Suppliying arms and Training for the illegal army fighting for the diposed Dictator who was a guest of the French government in Paris.
-How about Cuba in Angola, I had the "pleasure" to witness that first hand.
-Lets not forget about South Africa in Namibia.
-Robert Mugabe In Zimbabwe
-Darfur in Sudan

These are only a few I can think of off the top of my head, I am sure there are many more examples I am forgetting.

You make me ashamed to think you also call yourself a Canadian when you espouse hatred to one of Canadas Most important Allies.

I used 1950 to exclude Stalin. I guess I should have said 1953.

Americans did nothing to stop Rawanda, The US government instructed officials not to use the word genocide.

Who supports Israel with there UN VETO and billions a year in aid, I think 1/4 of American aid goes to Israel

Pol pot was enabled by Washington

Americans have killed more then any of the conflicts that you have stated and are responsible for many of the deaths in the ones you named.


Thanks for finding more crimes against humanity that the Americas have enabled or caused.

You are the one who should be ashamed for supporting crimes against humanity.You would have made a great SS officer.

[Moose47]

Mrs. Robinson. You seem to have conveniently missed the Soviet Union and their attempt at global communist domination through client states. The tentacles of the oppressive Soviet empire reached far and wide into just about every corner of the globe including that bastion of freedom and workers paradise, Cuba. Did you speak up when the Russians invaded Afghanistan?
By the way, how would you know what makes a good SS officer? If you don't know, I'll introduce you to my neighbor who was with the 12. SS-Panzer-Division Hitlerjugend.

I look forward to more of your mindless drivel.

'Semper Fi'

[Old Dog Flying]

And who in hell is killing thousands of people in Iraq with their walking dead sub-human bombers? The Left wing fools in this world love to blame the USA for everything because they are too stupid to see beyond the end of their snotty noses.

This started as a thread on the F-35 only to degenerate into a USA bashing diatribe . Lets look at who really screws the CDN military! Our politicians and their lackies wearing General ranks uniforms. In 1947 we entered the jet age with Vampires instead of Meteors which were wanted by the RCAF. Did I say the Vampires were cheaper and used machines were available? I worked these puking little dog whistles and they were good for nothing.

And when the fool of a retired General advised Deifenbaker that we no longer needed interceptors, the Arrow was cancelled...but then did I say that the Liberals were planning on cancelling it before the election won by the Conservatives.??? And of course Deif told Canada that there were no Nukes in Canada...except for the "Civil Servant" missiles...whoops..Bomarcs...you could not make them work and you could not fire them. Then the Confused Conservatives bought used Voodoos, CF-104s...again Nuke machines in European RCAF squadrons... and then bought the CF-5s POS .

Every time we turn around the political fools stick it to our men and women in uniform and the bleeding hearts sit back and giggle when our service people are given a job to do with crap equipment. I served my country for a very long time and I know first hand what it is like to be badly equipped, but still managed to get the job done.

So Ms Robinson et al get stuffed!

Barney..A proud 75 year old Veteran

[ARCCOM]

I used 1950 to exclude Stalin. I guess I should have said 1953.

Americans did nothing to stop Rawanda, The US government instructed officials not to use the word genocide.

Who supports Israel with there UN VETO and billions a year in aid, I think 1/4 of American aid goes to Israel
Pol pot was enabled by Washington

Americans have killed more then any of the conflicts that you have stated and are responsible for many of the deaths in the ones you named.


Thanks for finding more crimes against humanity that the Americas have enabled or caused.

You are the one who should be ashamed for supporting crimes against humanity.You would have made a great SS officer.

I guess youve never heard of Mao Zedong either, some estimates have him responsible for the deaths of up to 70-80 million people throughout the 50's,60's, and 70's. So would you please produce even a shred of evidence to any of your anti-american claims, instead of squaking your hateful nonsense! Are you capable of producing any actual numbers for deaths "caused" by Americans or are you going to continue randomly saying the americans have killed more?
And on Rwanda I think you should know it was China and to a lessor extent Russia that was blocking any UNSC resolution that would have given a mandate to stop the genocide.... If the Americans unilateraly took action to stop the genocide, bleeding hearts like you would have been up in arms saying they are commiting a crime against humanity!
But as I can see from your one anti-Israeli statement you are likely an anti-semite and you resent America for supporting Israel.... Its a typical reason for harbouring hate for America