Liberals Vow to Cancel Jet Fighter Project

[winds_in_flight_wtf]

Attn. Mrs. Robinson,

To answer your query for Post 1950:

-Stalin died in 1953 and was in power until his death, some historians attribute to him over his reign of the USSR over 40 Million deaths plus millions more forced into deportations.
-Mao Zedong, PRC, 10's of Millions killed in his "Cultural Revolution" and the adherance to his "Little Red Book"
-Rwanda, yes look to the United States but not the US Government but the UN headquarters in New York City, Kofi Annan's name should ring a bell
-Pol Pot, in Cambodia, you might of heard about his policies euphomistically refered to as the "Killing Fields,
-How about the former Yugoslavia and all its ethnic cleansing, the peace loving EU stood by and did nothing to stop it.
-I could talk about Israel and it' expansionistic border policies against its neighbors through the use of terror in the late forties (1948+) and 1950's
-How the Belgian Congo, ne. Zaire, Ne. DRC, and its protectorite standing by during decades of civil war and gang violence.
-Lets not forget the years of civil war in the 1990's in Sierra Leonne funded by a Canadian Diamond Mining Company utilising the services of a London Based Private Army Suppliying arms and Training for the illegal army fighting for the diposed Dictator who was a guest of the French government in Paris.
-How about Cuba in Angola, I had the "pleasure" to witness that first hand.
-Lets not forget about South Africa in Namibia.
-Robert Mugabe In Zimbabwe
-Darfur in Sudan

These are only a few I can think of off the top of my head, I am sure there are many more examples I am forgetting.

You make me ashamed to think you also call yourself a Canadian when you espouse hatred to one of Canadas Most important Allies.

I used 1950 to exclude Stalin. I guess I should have said 1953.

Americans did nothing to stop Rawanda, The US government instructed officials not to use the word genocide.

Who supports Israel with there UN VETO and billions a year in aid, I think 1/4 of American aid goes to Israel

Pol pot was enabled by Washington

Americans have killed more then any of the conflicts that you have stated and are responsible for many of the deaths in the ones you named.


Thanks for finding more crimes against humanity that the Americas have enabled or caused.

You are the one who should be ashamed for supporting crimes against humanity.You would have made a great SS officer.

Sorry, the world economic / military power cannot be everywhere at once as no country in the world could sustain the costs. But let’s say they were- then you would be on here bitching about how they impose their agenda on everyone. Yes, the allies killed thousands in many wars, but honestly, people like you are not worth any more than the crap we hunt on a day to day basis in Afghanistan. No matter what the deal is, you thrive off confrontation with your own government, you thrive off confrontation with those who are bigger than you….fine. F-35 aside, Canada needs to maintain its sovereignty-hands down, no questions asked. Is the F-35 the best option? Perhaps it is! I will believe those who currently serve. For someone who claims to know endless amounts about those demon devil Americans, you should know what happens when the White House gets involved with the strategy of military operations. More say yes for this bird than no. From what you have displayed here, I do not know how you expect anyone to take you seriously.
For the record, without the United States, you very well could be speaking a variety of other languages if one at all because you would have been destroyed long ago. You can obviously have your opinions, but to try and “sell” people your bs and tell us we are wrong and you are right…..etc. that’s just how it is! Well Like a classic right wing religious nut, you keep hitting a brick wall. I do not take you seriously, as there are no negotiations with the material, you expect us to submit to your bullshit. Not happening… Nothing will get through your thick uneducated brain, on the contrary a historian would state similar things which have been said here (other member’s posts above). You are a joke. Nobody is perfect, no country is perfect, but you need to get a life.

You would make a great telemarketer. BTW, why have the mods not removed this tool?

[winds_in_flight_wtf]

And who in hell is killing thousands of people in Iraq with their walking dead sub-human bombers? The Left wing fools in this world love to blame the USA for everything because they are too stupid to see beyond the end of their snotty noses.

This started as a thread on the F-35 only to degenerate into a USA bashing diatribe . Lets look at who really screws the CDN military! Our politicians and their lackies wearing General ranks uniforms. In 1947 we entered the jet age with Vampires instead of Meteors which were wanted by the RCAF. Did I say the Vampires were cheaper and used machines were available? I worked these puking little dog whistles and they were good for nothing.

And when the fool of a retired General advised Deifenbaker that we no longer needed interceptors, the Arrow was cancelled...but then did I say that the Liberals were planning on cancelling it before the election won by the Conservatives.??? And of course Deif told Canada that there were no Nukes in Canada...except for the "Civil Servant" missiles...whoops..Bomarcs...you could not make them work and you could not fire them. Then the Confused Conservatives bought used Voodoos, CF-104s...again Nuke machines in European RCAF squadrons... and then bought the CF-5s POS .

Every time we turn around the political fools stick it to our men and women in uniform and the bleeding hearts sit back and giggle when our service people are given a job to do with crap equipment. I served my country for a very long time and I know first hand what it is like to be badly equipped, but still managed to get the job done.

So Ms Robinson et al get stuffed!

Barney..A proud 75 year old Veteran

Old Dog, Honest question! You stopped at the CF18 purchase .... to your knowledge what was the reaction when it was purchased after the CF5? HONEST QUESTION.... I know, change in pace on this thread.

[Old Dog Flying]

I was retired by the time the Hornet came into service in 1981 but from what I recall, the "boys in blue" were happy with the choice of a first rate multi-role aircraft...which is what we needed then just as we need it now.

The Hornet is nearing the end of its useful life and must be replaced, after all it has been in service for nearly 30 years in Canada. And I don't mind my meager taxes on my pension going for the best available aircraft.

Barney

[alctel]

Sure we could have all stayed at home, like on Spet 11th. Good thing no one died that day.
Or as you said, July 7th, 2005 in London.
Or March 11th 2004 in Madrid.

I went to high school in Canada, but university in the US. I'm not sure where you went to school, but $685 billion of 14.72 trillion dollars, isn't quite 65%.

I'll start counting. I'm willing to bet 1 Marine in my patrol that day was saved thanks to the sound of American Might flying over head.

You know that Sept 11th had nothing to do with Iraq right? And the people saying 'well the US did good in WWII' are kind of ignoring the fact it was over 70 years ago now.

The Madrid and London bombings both happened due to my native country stupidly following the Americans into Iraq (Iraq had nothing to do with 9/11 by the way), which wasn't much comfort to the people who died in those (as I said earlier, I was involved in the London bombings and pulled bits of people out of the rubble)

A side effect of the Iraq war was to radicalise people who had their families murdered by US soldiers and bombs and mobilise a lot of terrorist groups, strangely people don't like it when their families are killed, infrastructure destroyed and relatives dragged off and tortured. This has the effect of making the world a lot less safe than before, for both people serving in Iraq/abroad and at home. 'American Might overhead' may have possibly saved a guy in your platoon, but its killed 10s of thousands of innocents in Iraq alone, not to mention a bunch of allied soldiers. Is that a fair trade?

You kill their kids, they will try to kill ours.

As for your numbers, I have no idea where you got 14.72 trillon dollars from (its more like 1-2 trillion), but a look at any budget graph will show that US defense spending is between 55-65% of their total GDP, depending on the year. The Iraq and private contracts are often hidden under 'discretionary spending' though. Ironically all this money going to defense kills more Americans through lack of healthcare than Osama could even dream of!

And that is all I am going to say in this thread and on this matter, since we are obviously not going to convince each other or anyone else.

[Nark]

I'm curious to your naivety.
Do you realize that a vast majority of targets are based on the book on their bedside table? Oddly enough, it's not the Koran that's on the nightstand.

Those dates are simple ones. Those actors targeted the very people you want the Americans to be. People who were going to work, on their home soil. Not servicemen, like me who fight back. These extremist don't target us because they are cowards. They know we will kill them.

In your example of retaliating because their presence in Iraq, please tell me why Mali was bombed in 2002? I didn't see to many Indonesians in Iraq. How about the Abu Sayyaf in the Philippines? Again Egyptian bazaar bombing in 2009. Again I didn't see any Egyptians in Iraq.

Keep dreaming of pacifism, I'll keep dreaming of dead terrorists.



As for my GDP number: http://www.google.com/publicdata

I'd like to know where you got your number, as you are probably comparing US defense spending to the Canadian GDP, which is closer to 2 trillion.


Edited to add:
I have shaken the hand of an Iraqi who said "thank you" to me.

[Driving Rain]

Oh Boy
http://www.veteranstoday.com/2010/11/02 ... -cover-up/

[Heliian]

Oh Boy
http://www.veteranstoday.com/2010/11/02 ... -cover-up/

Ha, just propaganda. 1.5 TB's of data would barely cover a basic CAD drawing of the F-35.

I think that you shouldn't have retired, maybe try the private sector.

[alctel]

I'm curious to your naivety.
Do you realize that a vast majority of targets are based on the book on their bedside table? Oddly enough, it's not the Koran that's on the nightstand.

Those dates are simple ones. Those actors targeted the very people you want the Americans to be. People who were going to work, on their home soil. Not servicemen, like me who fight back. These extremist don't target us because they are cowards. They know we will kill them.

In your example of retaliating because their presence in Iraq, please tell me why Mali was bombed in 2002? I didn't see to many Indonesians in Iraq. How about the Abu Sayyaf in the Philippines? Again Egyptian bazaar bombing in 2009. Again I didn't see any Egyptians in Iraq.

Keep dreaming of pacifism, I'll keep dreaming of dead terrorists.



As for my GDP number: http://www.google.com/publicdata

I'd like to know where you got your number, as you are probably comparing US defense spending to the Canadian GDP, which is closer to 2 trillion.


Edited to add:
I have shaken the hand of an Iraqi who said "thank you" to me.

Argh, I know I said I wouldn't reply but...

By 'GNP' I meant budget, that was a typo on my end - my point still stands! Just do a search for 'US budget'

Why am I naive? Those attacks had pretty clear reasons given to why they happened, unlike the Iraq invasion (which you still haven't given me a good reason why we invaded, unless you really do think that 9/11 was due to them) which killed at LEAST 107,000 men woman and children compared to the ~150 that died in those 2 bombings.

They don't hate you for your nebulous 'freedoms', they hate you because you kill their families, destroy their homes, loot their museums, destroy their infrastructure, torture their countrymen and fund oppressive regimes like the saudis. 107,000 civilians is a lot of dead people, and thats just in Iraq - you are generating more recruits for these terror groups the more kids you murder.

I think your extremely simplistic attitude towards events shows your naivety, rather than mine. And now I really am going to leave the thread since this is extremely off topic!

[2R]

Anyone know how many beers they could have bought instead of one airplane ?
Buying beer in bulk might get a better rate than the local beer store and if you bought enough beers :just how many new friends in the world could you make in a week ?

[55+]

The saga continues.............

http://www.abc.net.au/news/stories/2010 ... tion=world

[Driving Rain]

Kelly Johnson is rolling in his grave!

[SunWuKong]

Just came back to this sensitive topic, and now we can see pictures! I think ego and idolatry is getting more important in this thread, too bad because I prefer reading your post instead of watching personal pics or pics I can find myself on google

[. ._]

Anyone know how many beers they could have bought instead of one airplane ?
Buying beer in bulk might get a better rate than the local beer store and if you bought enough beers :just how many new friends in the world could you make in a week ?

According to my math, if you buy the cheap stuff in Ontario, and according to this announcement:

http://www.ic.gc.ca/eic/site/ad-ad.nsf/eng/ad03863.html

$9,000,000,000/65 planes=about 138 million per plane.

$138,000,000/$28.75 for a case of Red Cap or Carling or something=4.8 million cases of beer

Now if we wanna get funky and spend the whole amount on beer, that's 4,800,000x65=312 million cases of beer,

or about 10 cases of beer for everyone in Iraq, or 5 for everyone in Iran.

If some guy showed up to my house and gave me and my old lady 20 cases of beer, he would be my friend. Hell, I wouldn't have to buy beer again for a month!

-istp

[winds_in_flight_wtf]

Okay - so purchase F-15s or Eurofighters... there . Now who would so kind as to create the "Liberals vow to Cancel F-15 / Eurofighter Project " . How dare we purchase a fighter which gives no Canadians jobs.....(will be the new highlight)

This is not a win win situation with the Liberals or NDP . Buy the F**king things and move on.

[Siddley Hawker]

How much is it going to cost to cancel the F-35 contract? Anybody figured that out yet?

[Darkwing Duck]

Oh one of the most enthusiastic threads here. I have read everything here. I agree with some of you. Others of you should just take a long walk off a short pier or go pound sand. Or both. I am sure you will all decide who I am agreeing or disagreeing with as you read further.

1 - Some of you suggested we went into the F35 program on a non-bid purchase. Wrong. Even though we did purchase the fighters the F35 was up against the Boeing X32 which would of been the F32, which was put aside for the F35 by all the nations involved as it was an inferior machine. Not being of military background, I do think that the guys with the gold on the shoulders did go to the Feds and say "Hey, this is the machine we need, please make it happen." While I would never go out and buy a car without doing research, these guys know what they are talking about. And while there are hundreds of models to choose from on a car dealers lots, there are not that many fighters out there we can procure. We also "invested" millions of $s to research and develop this AC. Would it not make sense to also purchase this ac as well?

2 - We actually need more F35. Someone mentioned 200+. I agree. Our country is the 2nd largest in the world. We need more locations where we can permanently base the aircraft other then a temporary basing in Inuvik or Iqaluit. Our airspace is huge, reaction time is needed.

3 - Not only do we need more fighter aircraft, we need more equipment all around. Apache Longbows, say around 20, would sure help our troops on the ground in any conflict, now in Afghanistan, but in future as well. As well as more Chinooks, tanks and APVs. More advanced air to air / airlift capabilities. Nuke subs, night vision goggles, UAVs, artillery, what ever is required. I could go on and on. Our military is one of the best trained in the world. It needs the right tools to do the job. And those tools need to be changed when they are worn out or need an upgrade. Think of it this way. You are an airline owner. You own a B737-200 series with a sched run from a point in Canada to Europe. The aircraft can make it, with tech stops, but it is an inconvenience to you as and operator and the passengers as well. So you get an aircraft that can do the job in one hop. Now our troops, sailors and airmen need the tools to get the job done, safely, efficiently, and easily as possible, whilst minimizing the causalities and collateral damage to themselves, our allies and innocent personnel in the area.

4 - The comment came up to maintain the F18 for another umpteen years. My question to you... How often do you swap out your car and why? Why not maintain everything on it and your car should last +40 years. Look at the Sea Kings. Good heli, yes, in its day. Newer, better and more efficient helis are out there but the left wing drivel of too much money to replace them is not worth it. In the end it cost us as tax payers more money.

5 - Canadian ingenuity redid the Sea King with better avionics. The F86 had the best performance out of all models because of the better engines. The Aurora was outfitted better then our allies. The F18 had the false canopy painted under the fuselage. Everyone laughed at that until they went head to head. PAINTING the combat fatigues in Afghanistan when the CFs first got over there until we were able to issue proper desert fatigues. So our troops adapt very well but we should not have too if they are supplied with the right stuff at the start.

6 - Getting the Eurofighter or F18 Super Hornet instead of the F35. This is old tech. Why do this when we can buy new? Just like the old decrepit subs from England or the MiL copters in Afghanistan. As I said before... Get the right equipment to do the job. (Mom always told me if you are going to do a job, do it right the 1st time)

7 - Why wait to get this stuff. Old Scouts motto "Be Prepared." We were ill equipped at the start of WWI and WWII. But back then it did not take years to develop or improve a particular version. It took only hours to build a Lanc or B17. Shorter for a Spitfire. Today, technology is much more advanced and takes longer to hash out the fine product. You are not going to start building a house and then realize you need a hammer, then nails, then a saw, of various types. No, you are going to get the tools to build that house.

8 - We are not taking into account inflation for the cost comparison of these aircraft of the F18 how many years ago. My bet is it is actually cheaper 1 to 1 for the F35 then the F18 including all the bells and whistles.

9 - Tell those no good for nothing, left wing tree hugging pinko commies to take a long walk and never cancel another project again only to procure it later.

10 - I used to hate everything about the US. But over time, wisdom developed. They are not the great Satan everyone else thinks. They are one of the 1st to be on the front lines fighting for our beliefs, freedoms and trying to bring a world to peace and stability.

11 - We have to support our commitment to NATO. We also have to be a world leader in instilling a freedom to war torn nations. I believe we should continue to support our allies and friends in their struggles and conflicts and repression from conflict. If Canada were ever invaded, I hope to hell someone will come and help us.

12 - "A Man Called Intrepid" and "Shake Hands With the Devil" - Awesome books, suggested reading for everyone

Every time I hear the government make a purchase for new equipment (C17s for example) I am glad, because I know my beliefs, rights, and sovereignty will be uncompromised for that much longer. We should be more worried about letting Omar Khadr into this country after a year then paroling him in 2 because he is a "child warrior." You cannot tell me you cannot tell right from wrong when you were 15 yrs old. This a-hole is nothing more then a cowardly murdering terrorist riding the coat tails of this great nation he is trying to destroy.

Remember, wear a poppy and support our troops, past and present. God Bless Canada and her Allies.

[iflyforpie]

Awesome post Darkwing!!

[winds_in_flight_wtf]

Run for PM darkwing ... I will vote for you !

[Darkwing Duck]

Thanks for the compliments Ifly and Winds. All I was doing was re-affirming what others wrote here. But one thing I forgot

To all you who think we do not need a military. Why does Sweden and Switzerland have militaries? Both are neutral nations. Yet both nations have mandatory military service (well Sweden just abolished it this year) and they both have very sophisticated fighter aircraft and battle tanks. The personnel are highly trained. Also both nations allow, in fact encourage, common citizens the right to own firearms. Why? Because they are trying to avoid any act of aggression from a foreign nation. And our country is how many times larger then both combined. WOW, pull your heads out of your ass if any of you think we can negotiate with terrorists and war mongers. (Please leave our beautiful country. Here accept these love beads as a token of our appreciation). My mother loved me very much, but I did get a slap on the ass when I screwed up. We have to do this as a nation with the aggresors out there. Talk, sure, then slap if you must.

[Siddley Hawker]

A fine post DD.

We should be more worried about letting Omar Khadr into this country after a year then paroling him in 2 because he is a "child warrior."

At the risk of pulling a 7500 on this thread, the opposition parties appear to be very keen on sending Canadian troops to the Congo in a peacekeeping role. As they explain, Canadians invented peacekeeping, our troops are well trained and equipped, and they speak French. By all reports, the ongoing conflict in the Congo sees indiscriminate use of child soldiers. I would love to ask what they think Canadian peacekepers should do the first time they are confronted by a group of kids wielding AK-47's.

[winds_in_flight_wtf]

A fine post DD.

We should be more worried about letting Omar Khadr into this country after a year then paroling him in 2 because he is a "child warrior."

I would love to ask what they think Canadian peacekeepers should do the first time they are confronted by a group of kids wielding AK-47's.

A great question for Jack Layton! Most Canadian political responses would be something along the lines of "Canadians feel that .............. and ................(filler to look good on TV)..............no child is capable of such atrocities !!!! (never mind the suicide attack in Pakistan 2 days ago where a 15 year old killed 66 people) http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/40023295/ns ... tral_asia/

I would also love to submit the following article to our current day party leaders (story makes me want to throw up) : http://www.thestar.com/news/canada/woun ... d-soldiers

Many in this country should be ashamed.

[The Old Fogducker]

Superb post Darkwing ... well written and concise. I was particularly taken by your description of having had an "epithany on the road to Damacus" conversion regarding the United States.

It is rare, but not unheard of for me to make such a complimentary post ... as Siddley is well aware ... LOL.

Yes, I can just see the commie rats at the CBC reporting on the savagery of the war-like Canadian Armed Forces when they have to shoot some 14 year old in self defence because "the poor misguided youngster was only taking political action in the only way he knew how, ... to be a child-soldier in a land where disparity between the rich and the poor widens daily. If only there had been a midnight basketball game program in place in the Congo, the little baby wouldn't have taken up arms against the unjust government. That's where Canada should have placed its foreign aid dollars ... midnight basketball games, not wasting money by training killers to wear the uniform of the Canadian Armed Forces."

The Old (jump shot) Fogducker

[Hawkerflyer]

Fuckin liberals. Scrap it all and let's work on the missle defense plan. Errrr wait, we already did that.

[teacher]

To add to the 7500ing I suggest all Canadians READ THIS EDITORIAL.

Why blue berets don't work
Traditional peacekeeping a mythical concept that isn't compatible with modern warfare

By MERCEDES STEPHENSON, QMI Agency

Last Updated: November 7, 2010 2:00am

Autumn always heralds the next big fashion trend, however this year it appears the retro influences popularized in Milan and Paris have marched off the runways and into influencing ideas about foreign and defence policy.

While retro is great when it comes to the return of elegant styles, it's a poor guide for shaping Canada's role in the world. Particularly when the retro ideas being appealed to artificially construct a mythical past that skews reality and is out of touch with the radically different, modern, global environment.

In recent surveys, Canadians have expressed a desire to return to UN blue-beret peacekeeping, rather than engaging in more dangerous roles, like Canada's current mission in Afghanistan.

Michael Ignatieff played to this sentiment in a speech he delivered this past week to the Montreal Council on Foreign Relations, stating "Canada must wear the blue beret again."

The problem is the days of UN blue berets are long gone and the Pearsonian legacy of peacekeeping has been twisted beyond recognition in the public consciousness.

Ignatieff is appealing to a myth of Canada's past that never really existed and advocating a solution to international problems that hasn't worked for decades.

The desire to return to blue-beret peacekeeping is driven by Canadians' good intentions, but reflects an ill-informed understanding of the experiences of Canada's peacekeepers.

Prime minister Lester B. Pearson conceived of peacekeeping as an armed force standing between two states that no longer wanted to fight each other. Political will is essential to the success of this kind of peacekeeping - Pearson did not advocate intervening where two parties still wanted to quarrel, or in situations not fully controlled by state actors.

It is the latter situation that describes reality around the world in 2010. Conflict is primarily defined by non-state actors: Genocidal militias, terrorists and warlords who relish killing one another and unfortunate civilians who get in their way. When states do fight, it isn't with each other; rather, merciless governments attack their own populations.

This reality requires armed international intervention, but necessitates more than can be accomplished through lightly armed peacekeeping. The dichotomy between peacekeeping and war fighting has long since evaporated: Modern peacekeeping operations are peace enforcement where bullies are forced to put down their guns by someone driving a tank.

Ignatieff knows the tragic failures of blue-beret peacekeeping (he refers to the failure in Rwanda as peacekeeping's "Waterloo") and has written and spoken extensively about the dangers of relying on a fantasy to formulate feel-good foreign policy.

In 2005 Ignatieff visited Trinity College in Dublin, where he bemoaned Canadians' unwillingness to pay the cost of international citizenship. He argued that real "peacekeeping" is carried out by the Pentagon because "men with guns" had a superior ability to protect vulnerable people from predators. Ignatieff derided moral suasion and criticized Canada's reputation as a peacekeeper as "entirely bogus."

Previously, Ignatieff has opposed blue-beret peacekeeping and advocated a more robust, armed force that is not reliant on the fickle UN. Before entering politics he wrote in The New York Times that the UN secretariat "should stop running peacekeeping operations, and blue-beret forces should stop going where armed resistance can be expected."

Canadian soldiers who served in Rwanda and the former Yugoslavia tell heartbreaking tales of bearing witness to atrocities, frantically calling back to UN Headquarters in New York for permission to engage or heavier armaments, only to be met with radio silence.

Canadian peacekeepers' experiences have been anything but peaceful. They have been shelled, shot at and killed on peacekeeping operations - realities governments hushed up because it conflicted with the myth of peacekeeping that was politically expedient.

More than 100 Canadian Forces members lost their lives on "peacekeeping" missions and countless others suffered life-changing physical and operational stress injuries.

Before Canadians advocate a return to something "easier" and supposedly less dangerous, we must take stock of global realities rather than a self-indulgent version of our history.

mercedes.stephenson@sunmedia.ca

http://www.torontosun.com/comment/colum ... 93266.html

[Moose47]

<<<Darkwing Duck
Post subject: Re: Liberals Vow to Cancel Jet Fighter Project
PostPosted: Sat Nov 06, 2010 6:11 pm
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Oh one of the most enthusiastic threads here. I have read everything here. I agree with some of you. Others of you should just take a long walk off a short pier or go pound sand. Or both. I am sure you will all decide who I am agreeing or disagreeing with as you read further.>>>

Outstanding post Darkwing! You echo the sentiments of might I dare say the vast majority of posters on this forum.

Cheers...Chris