Petition for "College of Professional Pilots"?

[swervin]

The College is proceeding already. At the last Jazz ALPA meeting they mentioned that the first meeting of the College of Professional pilots had taken place just recently (probably May or so). I'm not sure who's all involved but I assume all the Canadian ALPA groups are involved as well as the Westjet Pilots and ACPA.

[yvanddivans]

About 5-6 years ago I tried with a couple of guys to start one such association, although in a completely different field. We tried to unified some individual groups together and provide them with support, insurances, ressources, etc.

We finally failed to complete our mission and our small association died, so I know that what you're trying to accomplish, although theorically beneficial and all happy-dancing-unicorns, is an Himalaya of work and not necessarily bound to success. Surely it's been tried before and I could not even begin to understand why it did not succeed then, I hope you can safely identify it and fail to repeat the same mistakes that must have been done in the past.

Nonetheless you do have my support and best wishes.

-Jean.

[Widow]

Indeed, swervin, it is already proceeding. Folks will be hearing more and more about it in the coming months, all the sooner if they already belong to a large union/association.

yvanddivans, you may feel comforted in knowing that this effort has already gone far further than any other effort ever has - and the wheel is picking up momentum.

[Four1oh]

Spokes, I'm not going to argue with you. You are totally in left field and need to READ the thread.

[CAPP]

About 5-6 years ago I tried with a couple of guys to start one such association, although in a completely different field. We tried to unified some individual groups together and provide them with support, insurances, ressources, etc.

We finally failed to complete our mission and our small association died, so I know that what you're trying to accomplish, although theorically beneficial and all happy-dancing-unicorns, is an Himalaya of work and not necessarily bound to success. Surely it's been tried before and I could not even begin to understand why it did not succeed then, I hope you can safely identify it and fail to repeat the same mistakes that must have been done in the past.

Nonetheless you do have my support and best wishes.

-Jean.

yvanddivans,

Your expertise in the field (having tried and learned the first time) puts you in position of being able to help those behind you who are doing the same. So might I be so bold as to suggest that you volunteer to help out in the quest for the college.

With all the speculation of how new pilot training, licensing, etc. will be handled, be aware that any College is just a joining together of people to discuss and come up with solutions. There are are a lot of things that need to be discussed and decided. Cooler heads will prevail and any and all opinions will be part of the mix. The main thing is that the goal is to create a safer, better workplace for professional pilots.

As far as businesses going under, that is all speculation. We don't have a large buggy whip industry any more either. The world moves ahead, we all evolve. I would rather see one large government subsidized pilot school than the collection of smaller ones that we have now. Try to become an accountant or Doctor part time.

[CAPP]

I am disturbed by the repeated reference to "limiting the number of pilots."

Just who is this College that it can tell people they cannot train for a commercial licence and then seek employment?
It is a too obvious and easy ploy to solve supply and demand and benefits only those pilots already "In".

We see this at major airlines doing the union thing. It is always the top dogs who get the gravy, even if it means the airline will lay off the newer pilots on the payroll if a strike happens. This disinterest in their colleagues' welfare and elitism that some airline pilots put out is one reason to doubt this initiative will take hold. Suppose the College had limited the number of "approved and employable" pilots just before the huge hiring boom of the past few years? The result would have been to totally restrict airline expansion plans. The only solution would have been the cadet program and boy, would there have been some yelling and screaming at that!!!

What are the credentials for joining? Does my membership mean I am qualified and worthy of the job? If a company I am employed at is deemed an inappropriate place to work, do I have to leave and become unemployed?

The college would not be responsible for deciding if a workplace was a safe place to work at. That is the Governments job.
Right now the government accepts what the College of Physicians for instance tells them (up to a point). The government still has the final word as it is the voice (supposedly) of the people.
The purpose of a college (I am assuming) is to set up the industry so that entrance into it is not a free flow of whoever can afford to buy a license. By changing the way that pilots are trained, the new pilots will find there to be actual jobs when they graduate after they spent a fortune learning. This is not unusual, the desire to find a job when you get out of school.
Look at it this way, would you rather just let people get a license at huge expense just too find out there are no jobs?

What are the credentials for joining? I cannot speak for anyone but myself but I would assume that any Canadian commercial or higher rated pilot would be eligible.
Your membership would not qualify you for anything as your license would do that.
Your membership would allow you to participate in creating a group somewhat along the line of the College of Physicians and Surgeons whose mission page reads as such
Mission & Goals;


Mission

The College of Family Physicians of Canada is a national voluntary organization of family physicians that makes continuing medical education of its members mandatory.

The College strives to improve the health of Canadians by promoting high standards of medical education and care in family practice, by contributing to public understanding of healthful living, by supporting ready access to family physician services, and by encouraging research and disseminating knowledge about family medicine.

Goals

As the voice of family medicine in Canada, The College of Family Physicians of Canada (CFPC) will:

Goal #1
champion quality health care for all people in Canada,

Goal #2
support its members in providing quality patient care through education, research and the promotion of best practices,

Goal #3
ensure that the role of the family physician is well understood and widely valued.

http://www.cfpc.ca/English/cfpc/about%2 ... lt.asp?s=1

I have been hearing about "The Great Coming Pilot Shortage" since before I learned how to fly.
I have a relative who just finished Med school. He has a choice of places to work. They are courting him. I won't even tell you what his starting salary is because if I mention over 200,000 you would be upset, so I won't. Yes he did a lot of school compared to a pilot. However I know from talking to a lot of medical people that in Med. school they wash out a heck of a lot of people by devious methods. The reason they do this is to restrict the # of entrants into the field. The people who get washed out are very talented people. This may offend you but go onto any website and check out how many pilots there at any given time who are job hunting.
Ask the two pilots at Colgan whether 16,000 a year is a living wage, sleeping in a crew room, working as a waitress, living with Mom while you build up time.
Jazz pays 30 thousand some odd starting wage. I had one friend who went there, was all excited that he was finally flying the "big Iron" right up to the point when he went to the bank to get a mortgage. "No Can Do", he wasn't making enough to get a mortgage.

The purpose is not to "Stop" the training of new pilots, it is to reduce it to a level where people can reasonably expect to find a job after they have spent the money.
The eventual goal will be that all pilots will be in the college. Sort of like all corporate 604 operations are members of the CBAA.
The current unions are in place for very good reasons. Companies can be just as devious as unions.

[Four1oh]

I'm against having a college directly control who and how many people can get a pilot's licence. However, I'm all for setting a universal standard that all pilot applicants must achieve in order to be issued a licence, and not only that, but maintain a professional standard lest the pilot lose their licence. Set a standard high enough to weed out the 'problems', and shut down the pilot 'puppy mills', and I think that alone would begin to limit the numbers.

After all, doesn't every kid dream of being a pilot/firefighter/cop/you-name-the-'romantic'-career-here?

[CAPP]

......After all, doesn't every kid dream of being a pilot/firefighter/cop/you-name-the-'romantic'-career-here?

Every kid dreams of doing some job or another. Some it's firefighter, cop or whatever. They have schools with quotas also believe it or not. What's the point in getting trained if there are "no sensible jobs".

Associations, unions, guilds etc have been around for a very long time for very good reasons.

[Four1oh]

I guess what I'm trying to say is part of the reason there's more pilots than jobs in Canada, is because so many kids decide to be a pilot on a whim, and entry is easy, just throw cash at a flight instructor, and before you know it, with minimal work, you're a commercial pilot. The barrier to entry needs to be raised.

[CAPP]

Four1oh,

I agree with you wholeheartedly. I foresee a day when becoming a pilot involves going to the equivalent of a trade school where you first have to be accepted and then you punch in time with a teacher, not just a quickie weekend course to get an ATPL.

This blows me away that you can take a weekend course complete with the actual questions to get a license. It's embarrassing to tell people that "no it's actually pretty easy to become a pilot."

I remember years ago I had a student who actually cornered me and wanted me to explain where the exhaust, crankshaft and the carburetor were on the aircraft. They were preparing for the commercial ride.

The AMEs went through this hoop a long time ago. Now their standards have been raised. They basically go to a proper school, where teachers can expect to receive a regular paycheque and it is a destination job, not the school of hard knocks.

I am kinda surprised that Transport Canada has not been lobbying for this. If my memory serves either TC or TC employees were part of the AME association startup. Indeed TC may be lobbying for this so I should not bite any hands....... because a lot of them remember what it was like before they joined TC.

BTW vote early and often on the petition at the top of this thread. It's around 45% now.

[yvanddivans]

About 5-6 years ago I tried with a couple of guys to start one such association, although in a completely different field. We tried to unified some individual groups together and provide them with support, insurances, ressources, etc.

We finally failed to complete our mission and our small association died, so I know that what you're trying to accomplish, although theorically beneficial and all happy-dancing-unicorns, is an Himalaya of work and not necessarily bound to success. Surely it's been tried before and I could not even begin to understand why it did not succeed then, I hope you can safely identify it and fail to repeat the same mistakes that must have been done in the past.

Nonetheless you do have my support and best wishes.

-Jean.

yvanddivans,

Your expertise in the field (having tried and learned the first time) puts you in position of being able to help those behind you who are doing the same. So might I be so bold as to suggest that you volunteer to help out in the quest for the college.

With all the speculation of how new pilot training, licensing, etc. will be handled, be aware that any College is just a joining together of people to discuss and come up with solutions. There are are a lot of things that need to be discussed and decided. Cooler heads will prevail and any and all opinions will be part of the mix. The main thing is that the goal is to create a safer, better workplace for professional pilots.

As far as businesses going under, that is all speculation. We don't have a large buggy whip industry any more either. The world moves ahead, we all evolve. I would rather see one large government subsidized pilot school than the collection of smaller ones that we have now. Try to become an accountant or Doctor part time.

I understand what you say, in fact, against all odds, I thought about it too!! But (yes, off course, there's one!) I'm still in the middle of my PPL... so a long way before my CPL... and since I'm strugling, like so many before me, between a full-time graveyard job, a full-time day studying/flying, and a full-time evening trying to sleep... (which, by the way, IS an excellent "wash out method"... except for spoiled brats whose fathers pay for everything......) ... I don't have much time nor experience in the field to provide real help. At least I'm ready to give moral support: GO!! YOU CAN DO IT YEAH!!! :)

EDIT: Hell this whole forum is a Wash Out method. Many here portrait the aviation world, either canadian or international, as a giant maze filled with endlesss mouse traps. Anyone not entirely ready to sacrifice everything to get to do the job would start crying and run away.

This blows me away that you can take a weekend course complete with the actual questions to get a license. It's embarrassing to tell people that "no it's actually pretty easy to become a pilot."

I agree to a certain extend: It IS (somewhat) easy if you have the money, but it's far from being common knowledge. Everyone I know (even I, before I started getting some info on schools) thought it was very hard to be a pilot. It still is, lots of studies and hard work perfecting your control. Moreover, having to say "its actually easy" to anyone... does suggest that this person thought otherwise!

Aaanyway... my 2 cents.

[CAPP]

yvanddivans,

Sadly I find a certain amount of the responses on this site to be less than mature. I used to go to another forum where you paid 5 dollars to join it and your real name was your login name, so people thought long and hard before saying dumb things. Your personalized cheque or credit card or debit card name was their verification of your real name. Also your posts were constantly monitored and you could be kicked off and ultimately banned for swearing and gratuitously saying nasty things to others. The site was the best site and only real one because of this. The best and brightest people in that field are regulars on that site.

I too paid my way and understand how it is to see others who can afford to live the high life while in school. I sometimes think that the rush to pay for your kid though college produces kids who may not appreciate the value of what was given them. This can be argued of course. I didn't spend too much time worrying about it. In France the state pays for your child's education. A friend of mine said his daughter's law degree cost him 175 Canadian per year to register to the school (in France). When you think about it it makes sense. The offspring of each generation are the ones who keep the pension system alive, so why should parents pay the lion's share of this cost of raising the next generation, so that others who choose not to or cannot have children get a free ride. Anyhoo...
My doggedness in paying for my school with loans etc. paid off as I learned how to deal with banks early and I was lucky in never having to consciously look for a job to "build up hours". I was offered all of my early jobs and some of my later ones. It is difficult to know why people on this site think that life should be an easy ride.

Life is challenges and one challenge that I see for the good of our current pilot population and those that follow in our footsteps is to create this college. It is not impossible and I would contact Widow as soon as you can to be in on the ground floor. Any organization needs "grunts" and there will be grunt work. Just having #'s is a huge hurdle.

An email is free.
Don't ask what the college can do for you,
Ask what you can do for the college.

[Spokes]

Spokes, I'm not going to argue with you.

Sound like you are starting one here. No matter.

You are totally in left field and need to READ the thread.

I have been following it closely, and do not believe you are right in this. What I see here is people frustrated with low pay- and rightfully so. Many who support this idea feel that somehow limiting the number of cpl issued is the answer. I am simply saying that I think it is a bad idea, and looking at some of your posts below you seem to agree with me here.

I'm against having a college directly control who and how many people can get a pilot's licence.

However, I'm all for setting a universal standard that all pilot applicants must achieve in order to be issued a licence, and not only that, but maintain a professional standard lest the pilot lose their licence. Set a standard high enough to weed out the 'problems', and shut down the pilot 'puppy mills', and I think that alone would begin to limit the numbers.

One method proposed was to to centralise pilot training in a manner similar to the ATC way of doing things. From your post you seem to agree with this. I think it is a bad idea.I think that this is a bad idea, and would negatively effect small flight schools. TC sets the standard for a CPL, employers set the standard for thier emploees.

Finally I would happily debat this , but do not want to fall into the childish name calling that so often seems to find its way into this forum. Pointing out the flaws in a idea, or disagreeing with the methods does not warrent an attack, it requires discussion. If I am wrong, tell me why.

[Jastapilot]

I am against a central training facility. There's nothing wrong with the existing ones, other than there's no standards and they pump out pilots like puppy mills. The pilot 'college' sets the standards the pilot must achieve before getting a licence. Has nothing to do with where he get's trained.

[CAPP]

Jastapilot,

You might be onto something.

If a facility or facilities spread around the country or part of an existing school/university complex wanted to take on the challenge, then the ground school part could be done as a series of semesters like a university, where you have a series of courses that must be completed in some order or another, whatever is decided by the college. Then the actual flying could be done wherever you like, almost like an apprenticeship.

I suspect that with a one complete university/flying school type setting it would simplify getting funding to pay for part of the flying cost which is of course the most expensive part.

[Brewguy]

...So that there are not a dozen pilots for every job. If it were not for the College of Physicians and Surgeons in every province in Canada there would be a heck of a lot more physicians and surgeons as the schools would be just pumping them out to meet the demand.

If you are a doctor from another country and you want to set up shop in Canada, you have to pass exams and then you have to go to the areas that you are assigned to and there is a quota system based on projected need for Doctors. An association gives us the power to do these things...

It is the baffling actions of the various provincial Colleges of Physicians and Surgeons that are responsible for the nation wide doctor shortage in Canada, and why many Canadians can't even get themselves a family doctor. And why? Is it because there is a lack of work for them? I know a number of doctors, and most of them feel completely overwhelmed by their workload and would welcome more doctors. It's the elite 'powers that be' within their organization, not the average doctor, making these decisions.

And whoever it was who said the government has the final say (in this doctor example) is dead wrong. The federal government is quite keen to bring in foreign trained doctors to help with the shortages, the provincial health ministries are screaming for more people, and the medical schools are more than willing to take in more students; but the 'colleges' won't budge. Not a good situation ... not sure why anyone else would want to model their industry after that one.

Also, out of curiosity, when did pilot become a "profession" in line with doctors, lawyers, engineers, architects and the like? You know, people who must get at least one university degree (if not more) before going on to complete other requirements (doctors doing residencies, lawyers passing the bar, engineers writing P. Eng exams, etc.) before becoming qualified.

If anything, a pilot is more of a 'skilled trade' like an electrician or mechanic. It's hours of hands-on experience which counts most. Perhaps an apprenticeship program would be more appropriate.

Just my $0.02

[Cat Driver]

The best and brightest people in that field are regulars on that site.

Aviation does not require one to be from the best and brightest in society, some of the Avcanada posters are proof positive of that.

[CAPP]

The best and brightest people in that field are regulars on that site.

Aviation does not require one to be from the best and brightest in society, some of the Avcanada posters are proof positive of that.

Ouch, I resemble that remark.

Touche

[Rubberbiscuit]

Neilblythen made a valid and interesting post. The thaught of this College restrictng number of entrants into the field seems a little far fetched to me as well. The aviation industry is very liquid and unpredictable as far as the need for pilots go. It is not like the medical field where they can easily take into account the number of retirements of doctors, size and age of population, even the predicted immigration rates. I do agree in making it tougher to get a commercial or ATPL License. Set higher standards for the licensing process which would automatically force the schools to raise the bar or be left with training PPL and Recreational Licenses. In many countries in Europe you must sit through an ICAO approved Commercial/ATPL course and it is fairly extensive.

I can see the College being effective in contolling the licensing process and setting standards.

I can see the College being effectivce in bringing the pilot group together to improve safety (i.e. forcing a long overdue change in duty and flight time regulations).

I can see the College being effective in protecting pilots from unsafe operators. Imagine a scenario where certain operators where blacklisted by the College? That would put these operations under intense pressure to adhere to regulations and put safety first.

I Do not se the college as being effective in regulating industry wages, unless it was at the airline level only. The types of jobs are so many and different that I simply do not see a common standard set for all levels. How do you regulate wages for glider towing and banner towing? Some operatate out of their own farmfields while others pay landing and departure fees. Some operate new airplanes for this while other use old clapped out equipment that is long paid for. Just one small example.

[teacher]

No restrictions on licenses but working towards better training, better working conditions and more professional representation for all commercial pilots I think are great goals that this college could work towards.

[Brewguy]

In that case, you're talking about something more along the lines of an association or union. A group that would lobby industry & government, and may hold their own members (voluntary membership) to certain standards. Perhaps some sort of a professional pilots designation would be the ticket. Anyone can get a CPL or ATPL, but someone wanting to get their 'designation' would join an association, take additional professional development courses and work towards that designation. Higher-end employers would then use that designation as an additional tool for weeding out applications.

Example, any small 'mom & pop' business may require a shipper / receiver, or an inventory management person. But a large warehouse for some types of industries require their management people to have the CPIM (Certified in Production and Inventory Management) designation. This isn't a legal requirement to do this type of work, but is commonly required (by in-house company policy) to get the really good jobs.

But as soon as you start going towards this professional 'college' model; then you're into self-regulation. i.e. Doctors (College of Physicians & Surgeons), Lawyers (Law Society of ____), Engineers (Professional Engineers), Accountants (CA or CGA)

In my work, we often deal with paralegals. For a long time now, lawyers have been pushing the government for more stringent licensing of paralegals. A year or so ago, they won and Ontario gave the Law Society of Upper Canada the authority to begin regulating them in the same manner as lawyers ... and oh boy, what a stink that caused.

There was a brief period of time when existing / practicing paralegals could submit an application to be 'grandfathered in', followed by another short period where anyone who missed that first deadline could write a 'challenge exam'. But those who missed out on the above, basically have to go get a college diploma, and then pay a fee and write an additional exam; after which they have to maintain a (paid) membership with the law society to keep working.

I'm not sure a lot of you would actually like the move towards this type of regulation.

[Cat Driver]

An association would be better because it does not involve changing rules.

The association will gain strength through numbers ...as long as it stays focused on the goals it is set up for.

So what are your goals?

[Rubberbiscuit]

Cat, you nailed it when asking "so what are your goals?" Before anyone icluding myself can be expected to sign up, some fundamental goals need to be established. I know many feel this way.

[Widow]

I'm sure the "College" and any other initiative will make their "goals" public once they have completed laying the groundwork and are ready to "go public". Some people prefer to be a part of the laying of groundwork, and others prefer to wait until it is laid. Considering the number of times such initiatives (of the professional association variety) have tried and failed, I cannot help but think the more people involved at the beginning stages, the more likelihood of them "getting it right" such that it will not fail.

[Cat Driver]

Before anyone icluding myself can be expected to sign up, some fundamental goals need to be established. I know many feel this way.

You can start with these rules for the members of the association.

All members will adhere to the rules as set out in Car's.

All members will refuse to fly aircraft that .

1... Are over the legal gross weight.

2... Have maintenance issues that in the opinion of the pilots or engineers make the aircraft unsafe for flight.

All members will refuse to fly in weather conditions that are, or is forecast to be below the minimums for the flight be it VFR or IFR.

All members will refuse to fly or work on aircraft when they are fatigued to the point that they are unsafe.

In the event there is a conflict between the employee/'s and the employer they agree to accept the decision of the management of the association in conjunction with TCCA as an arbitrator of the issues.

These are some basic goals that should be strived for.

A strong association will by its commitment to holding a high standard of work ethics will by default be able to demand a fair pay for the work they are performing and will get the attention of the insurance companies.

Properly set up it can be a win for everyone from employees to the employer and TCCA.

The above are just a few thoughts that come to mind and should give you all something to work with.