Crash @ North Spirit Lake Ont (4 dead, 1 survivor)

[2.5milefinal]

Just last week I watched a pilot land at a northern airport after flying 'VFR' to get to that airport. There is absolutely no way he could have been 'VFR' at all times during his flight...no way no how.
VFR operations in northern Canada is a joke. Everyone knows the operators go 'VFR' because its easier and most of all cheaper.
If anyone thinks I am wrong they are delusional.

Did this pilot fly to KQ3 VFR OR IFR ?
Why only one pilot ?
Was there an auto pilot and was it working?
Did he have IFR FUEL.
Had he ever been to KQ3 before?
How did he plan to approach KQ3?
-using some kind of IFR approach or did expect to be 'VFR'?
AND the biggest question of all
Did the management know what this pilot was planning to do?
-did they care?

Are we again, just going to blame the pilot ??????

[bornagain1340]

I understand the situation, done a little flying up north myself but if a pilot doesn't have the "judgement" required for the job ( I'm not judging this particular situation as I don't know the facts) then he probably should not be flying there. Big difference for a lower time pilot working in a very controlled enviorment in the south and being on your own in some hole up north.

Up north, down south makes no difference...a lack of experience and a boss that makes themselves out to be eight feet tall when you go to them with a concern does. If the guy that hired you is making it sound like your career hangs in the balance of wether or not you do a trip, then you're better off somewhere else. Easier said than done I know, but it's just not worth it.
Single pilot IFR in Northern MB/ON is some challenging sh*t and a healthy respect for the weather as well as your own limitations goes a long way.
Living in some "hole" (as robertsailor put it) building time is some of the best flying a pilot will ever do. The experience one takes away from that will serve him/her for the rest of their career.
I did not know the pilot involved or the circumstances leading up to what happened, but my condolences and genuine sympathies go out to him and his family.
Stay safe out there.

[2R]

Was the auto-pilot working ?
The last crash that company had with a similar aircraft.The particular city crash aircraft was released for flight without an auto-pilot.Was this recent crashed aircraft in a similar state of non-compliance of the fit for purpose principle.Was this aircraft dispatched in a fit for purpose state in compliance with all the CARS?
When the company sets the example that rules are easily ignored and compliance with the CARS is optional to their operations.Something to do with corporate culture.
Grief might just be the result.

I remember flying Martha Campbell out of CKQ3 years ago the thought of her screaming while being burned to death is making me cry.So i will have to stop thinking about this for a while.
Just remember folks when you do your PAX briefing that the PAX KNOW HOW TO GET OUT.As they may be rescuing your sorry ass.

[seasonaldriver]

My deepest condolences to the families, it is a tragic loss no one should have to experience.
I am afraid that Cat Driver, Doc and many other old-timers who are cynical and pessimistic and pretty much bang on about the employer of choice, the regulator. A colleague, mentor and friend told me a couple of years ago that with the mass exodus of hard working and caring folks that have left because of so much discontent, we have no one with balls left in the building when it comes to the front line managers. Matter of fact, managers positions have been discarded and replaced with a very few newly created positions that have been filled with wannabe brown-nosing non expert in anything losers. I have seen the organization slip into chaos and now the fox is guarding the hen house. To correct some of the comments here I would like to say that nothing will likely come of this and those that said the pilot will wear the blame are likely very correct with their assumption. The company as far as SMS is concerned was forced after the last accident to follow SMS to maintain operations. That went away quite a while ago when the regulator realized it was too much of a headache and rescinded the order. The company right now is not SMS and so there is no accountable executive or the likes, so much like the last accident the core management will not wear any blame in the end. As I watch the last couple of days unfold, it is like past recent accidents where the only real concern is that the regulator is not accountable in any way.
Merlin P started this mess and now publicly denounces the new way of business to the world. Hypocrisy at it's best. The folks that really care about doing a great job and not wanting to ever read about these accidents are hamstrung, tied to the chair and gagged. The minister only hears the watered down version and will never hear what the grunts have to say. I truly hope that someone somewhere will finally wake up and realize that all these new programs will only work when there is sufficient manpower to deal with them. Cutbacks and reorganization is taking the regulator back to Cranbrook days and an inquiry that found a lack of subject matter experts didn't exist was contributing to the increase in accidents. They are headed right back there. Yes this is my first post, and no I'm not crazy. I just feel horrible about what happened and had to say something.
There will be accidents as long as there is a human input but I truly believe that just maybe some of them could have been adverted if there was a teacher standing nearby with the yardstick watching over the class.

North Spirit Lake was a tragedy, no matter what the root cause was.

I've heard rumours about the current conditions at TC and have sympathy for all the inspectors who still work there trying to do their job under ever more challenging(to say the least) conditions. Sure, when they showed up for a base audit it was a sweat inducer, but it sure helped us keep focussed on maintaining a safer operation. TC needs more, aviation background, trained people who know what they are doing, not " wannabe brown-nosing non expert in anything losers" if we want to help prevent accidents like this from recurring.

[jump154]

QUOTED

With the amount of time and effort that has gone into this thread already with 5 pages so far, someone could have constructed a well written, sensible and emotionally controlled letter to a editor of one of the major news companies outlining the major problems faced in general aviation today.

HOW WOULD THIS BEEN DONE TO PREVENT THIS BEING A PILOT'S CAREER LIMITING MOVE ?

By being written by someone who's livlihood is not being a Pilot. Food for thought......

[kevind]

http://cnews.canoe.ca/CNEWS/Canada/2012 ... 33321.html

[flyinthebug]

As was predicted, Riopka stands behind the cloak of "but we implemented an SMS program"...Im too angry to post right now. Any further contribution at this point would be pure emotion and of no use to anyone.

This ^ post did remind me that I would ask one of the mods to please edit the title of this thread to (4 dead 1 injured) from 5 dead as was the original report. It may seem like a small detail but one that I feel should be addressed correctly. Thank you.

Fly safe all.

[chesty]

150 hours with the company

[RogerCheckCopy]

GR says it is "grossly unfair" to be criticizing their safety record! Seriously???! Name one other operator that has CRASHED 3 PA31"s with fatalities in two of the three CRASHES over the span of a decade? Besides, from what I recall the weather was rather poor in the first two CRASHES, and in my opinion sheer luck that more lives weren't lost.

That said, a tragic occurrence none the less and my thoughts are with family and friends of the victims.

[FighterPilot]

CADORS Report:
http://wwwapps.tc.gc.ca/Saf-Sec-Sur/2/c ... pe=0&narr=

[Dayofthedogs]

The cadors
http://wwwapps.tc.gc.ca/Saf-Sec-Sur/2/c ... =0&accatcd

Aircraft filed IFR ywg-kq3 crashed at 1000, reported to have left ywg at 0715. (once again 2h45....roughly a 90 kt groundspeed for a pa31-350??)

reported to have left ywg at 0715. If the aircraft did leave ywg at 0715 and went direct to kq3 at 170kts it should have arrived roughly at 0835 making the gfa's everbody is using to base their assumptions on roughly 3 1/2 hrs out of date. I checked the metar at yrl around 1300 local and it showed 500ft and 15+ -SN the previous metars were 800ft 15+ -SN. kq3 is 100 sm north of yrl roughly 020. Does anyone have a little more relevant data on the WX? GFA's are notoriously inaccurate at times, (thanks nav can) if the WX in YRL was good for around 0800-0900 and the GFA was showing 3000 for bottoms in front and behind the one band of cloud that had 800-500ft ceilings and anywhere from 1 1/2 to 5 vis is it unreasonable to think the low ceilings and vis were localized?

I hate to break up the slagging party on Keystone, but how much do we really know about the accident itself? Maybe the chiefs in MB have a point about getting proper WX observers further north. Keystone pilots do have the option to request a co pilot, and have done so with no recourse. I don't work at Keystone and I have no vested interest in their operation in any way.

[2.5milefinal]

Flight 231, crashed into North Spirit Lake at about 10 a.m.
...taken from a news article, for what it is worth (?)

We really can not keep pretending that FAs work for making good sound go no-go weather decisions.
BTW the chiefs have it completely correct. We need more weather reporting stations.

[Dayofthedogs]

I got 1000 from the cadors, trenton confirmed the elt went off around then.

the 0715 dept time I got from the news, wich is why I wrote reported in my post.

once again I'm just trying to point out that we know little about the facts. Maybe Keystone doesn't have the best culture, I have no idea myself. however it's hard to say how much all these guys are dumping on keystone know about the operation in the last 7 years. I've read a post from a former employee who said it wasn't such a bad place to work and did not feel pressure to fly. Also heard from a guy who was flying in the area later in the day and had cloud bases at 3000, so maybe the WX was localized.

Hell even the residents can't make up their minds about what the WX was doing that day if you have read most of the media reports (see my earlier post).

Who knows if the pilot was in legal vfr after descending to MSA (2700 I think) and while setting the flaps on approach only one side came down and lost control?
Likely.... no! But what do we really know?

If we want to learn from this it would help if we got some more facts.

[ditar]

Flightaware shows a 7:51 departure time.

http://flightaware.com/live/flight/KEE213

[SnotRocket]

BTW the chiefs have it completely correct. We need more weather reporting stations.

Granted, but it still doesn't stop operators from encouraging busting minimums or "OBS the runway and descend till you see something" like this operator. An inexperienced captain needs support from senior captains and management, good training, and a non-punitive reporting system when it comes to snags, bags, and weather. Unfortunately you get none of this at this company, but luckily most guys get through by the skin of their teeth with nothing bad happening. They probably had a few good scares along the way.

Sure things have changed a bit there. You no longer have to call management to tell you how much fuel you can put on, but lets get real. Lets ask some simple questions? How are they doing Kelsey runs with full pax, and not requiring a fuel stop in a 200? How are they loading 6-7 fishermen with gear, and supplies to some of the lodges in IFR weather and be able to take IFR fuel without stopping? It doesn't take a rocket scientist to discover some of what going on observing from the outside. Just imagine what going on behind closed doors. They get the junk no other operator will accept.

Regardless of the cause, hopefully it will give TC opportunity to open up what is really going on on the inside and prevent more of crap from happening.

[TheStig]

It's hard not to speculate given the circumstances outlined thus far given the name on the side of the aircraft, so I'll do my best not to. We've all made mistakes and by one means or another averted disaster; equipment, experience, skill, corporate culture, weather, and dumb luck all play a role in our lives everyday.

To all of the 702-704 types reading this forum, please don't tell yourself this couldn't happen to you, it could. The following sentences will alway remove any resistance from your passengers for cancelling/delaying a trip.

"I don't believe it will be SAFE to conduct this flight given the weather information I've been provided."

All you need next is a CP that will back you up.

employerofchoice, heck of a first post, hope to read your second soon. Passion is what will be needed if we are going to prevent the same mistakes from happening again. Look at Widow has been able to achieve.

My condolences go out to those who have lost their loved ones in this accident.

[cdnpilot77]

This ^ post did remind me that I would ask one of the mods to please edit the title of this thread to (4 dead 1 injured) from 5 dead as was the original report. It may seem like a small detail but one that I feel should be addressed correctly. Thank you.

I was thinking this last night, thank you for addressing it.

[cncpc]

I got 1000 from the cadors, trenton confirmed the elt went off around then.

the 0715 dept time I got from the news, wich is why I wrote reported in my post.

once again I'm just trying to point out that we know little about the facts. Maybe Keystone doesn't have the best culture, I have no idea myself. however it's hard to say how much all these guys are dumping on keystone know about the operation in the last 7 years. I've read a post from a former employee who said it wasn't such a bad place to work and did not feel pressure to fly. Also heard from a guy who was flying in the area later in the day and had cloud bases at 3000, so maybe the WX was localized.

Hell even the residents can't make up their minds about what the WX was doing that day if you have read most of the media reports (see my earlier post).

Who knows if the pilot was in legal vfr after descending to MSA (2700 I think) and while setting the flaps on approach only one side came down and lost control?
Likely.... no! But what do we really know?

If we want to learn from this it would help if we got some more facts.

Some good observations there.

I think the operating assumption is impact under control and that probably comes from survivors of the impact, but unfortunately not of the fire for four of them. I can't but say I certainly have a bad impression of Keystone from reading this thread, but the facts when known may not justify this incident being used to support the bias against Keystone. This time. Or they may.

Anyways, wise post.

[2.5milefinal]

SnotRocket
Granted, but it still doesn't stop operators from encouraging busting minimums or "OBS the runway and descend till you see something" like this operator. An inexperienced captain needs support from senior captains and management, good training, and a non-punitive reporting system

Agree

[trampbike]

The cadors
GFA's are notoriously inaccurate at times, (thanks nav can)

GFA's are produced by meteorologists working for Environment Canada, in Environment Canada offices, not NavCanada.

[Dayofthedogs]

Thanks environment Canada. Sorry Nav Can.

Just curious, who`s call is it on airfield WX reporting equipment and where trained weather observers are stationed?

[trampbike]

I'm not sure that I understand your question, but if you want to have an idea of how many weather stations there are in eastern Canada, you can take a look a this surface analysis/observations chart (the dots, most of them are solid blue because clouds cover the sky right now, represent a weather station. Some of them are automatic, some have a weather observer, like a FSS):
http://meteocentre.com/analyse/map.php? ... size=large

It's pretty obvious how scarce the stations are when you go North.
Same goes for radar coverage (gray circles are areas covered by a weather radar): http://www.weatheroffice.gc.ca/radar/index_e.html

Too bad we don't have that many weather ballons, because the information provided by such graphs: http://meteocentre.com/upper/rs_skewt.p ... &stn=71722 would be very usefull for pilots.

More pilots could gain a lot if they acquired better knowledge about weather (I'm not saying a lack of knowledge was related to the accident, it's strictly as a general case), especially about the tools they could use (how and when to use them, where to find them).
If anyone is interested, this site http://meteocentre.com/home_e.html regroups most of the usefull charts, models, graphs and reports that are available for free on the internet. Since it's hosted by a Montreal university, most of the link for regional stuff is for Quebec and Eastern Canada, but you can easily find the regional infos for your region.
PM if you have any questions, or start a new thread in Flight Training!

Sorry for the thread hijack!
My sincere condoleances to the family and friends of the victims.

[Back Course]

The pilot was a good man. He was whitty and funny. The kind of funny that would have your stomache hurting and your eye's watering. He lived in many counties, worked many different jobs, and had a well rounded life experience. He will be missed.

[Kzanol]

deleted

[Cat Driver]

(all you stupid ****ers who say he should never have taken off are idiots)

Can you educate some of us idiots who are not as smart as you?

What do you figure caused the crash?