The F-35 is not dead

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trampbike
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Re: The F-35 is not dead

Post by trampbike »

Rockie wrote:
trampbike wrote:I would be much more concerned if nothing wrong at all was found with the engine during the whole testing phase...
I would be shocked myself, and would be even more shocked if nothing ever went wrong once the airplane leaves testing phase. That's pretty much the whole argument against operating a single engine fighter in Canada's far north isn't it?

Absolutely. We both agree on pretty much everything, I simply think the risk of SE ops in the F35 case might be acceptable while you think it's not. You have first hand experience with arctic fighter ops, I don't. You won't have to accept this risk, I might have to.

Case closed?
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azimuthaviation
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Re: The F-35 is not dead

Post by azimuthaviation »

. . wrote:it would appear you are quite young and not yet anywhere near qualified to work as a pilot
And just to clarify that means under 65 and less than 3000 hours in a DC3
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frosti
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Re: The F-35 is not dead

Post by frosti »

Rockie wrote:And nothing about operating them.
In the air, no. The F404 is very reliable and the only issues we are seeing now are from age. I've seen only one instance where the second engine saved the jet, and pilot for that matter from bailing over Libya. The F-15 Strike Eagle's two engines didn't save it. However you can't compare an almost 40 year old design to the F135/6.
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Re: The F-35 is not dead

Post by Rockie »

frosti wrote:I've seen only one instance where the second engine saved the jet,
I've seen one instance as well. Since it happened to me perhaps you'll understand where my perspective comes from regarding this issue.

I could also fill pages with examples that didn't happen to me personally where the second engine most definitely did save the jet - and the pilot(s) and everybody else on board as well.

Admit that your knowledge on this is not only limited but comes from a maintenance perspective rather than an operational one.
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azimuthaviation
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Re: The F-35 is not dead

Post by azimuthaviation »

...And a bit of perspecctive


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Re: The F-35 is not dead

Post by Gravol »

. . wrote:
It's ground hog day all over again.

I'm bracing myself for the onslaught of ignorance.
Reading your posts since you started on this forum it would appear you are quite young and not yet anywhere near qualified to work as a pilot.

Rockie is a senior pilot flying heavy jets and formerly was flying fighter jets in the air force.

Maybe you might consider how it would be for you sitting next to him as an FO if you ever get that far.....

....then again maybe he needs someone like you to enlighten him so he is no longer ignorant.

P.S.

I had a few with your attitude over the years and the best use I could find for them was straight and level autopilots...

Then again I am one of the ignorant ones.
I have always enjoyed reading the contributions from a variety of regulars in this forum. The reality is I do not agree with everything that is written.

Rockie in particular, I've always enjoyed reading his contributions. But just because I disagree with him does not mean I attack his credibility or challenge his ability to fly. I know of others who fully endorse this program who believe it or not, also fly/flew fighters in the CF.

Why is it that anyone who doesn't agree with you is unfit to work in this industry? The first thing to come out of you in a defence is hours flown . As if it's some sort of undignified blasphemy to question anything you present. I personally cannot challenge you via hours nor do I claim to know more about certain things. As a matter of fact, I think it would be fun to have my ass handed to me by you during a lesson. I'm sure I could learn something. But besides all that...

When can someone ever disagree with you on virtually everything and remain credible?
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Re: The F-35 is not dead

Post by frosti »

azimuthaviation wrote:...And a bit of perspecctive
Looks like a little bit of :rolleyes: from whomever created/believes that non sense.
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Re: The F-35 is not dead

Post by frosti »

http://www.flightglobal.com/news/articl ... th-382726/

The AETD engine is designed to fit in the F-35 and supposed to have a minimum 10% thrust bump over the current 43K F135 and minimum 25% better fuel efficiency. 50K thrust would go a long way to improving kinematic performance and would give the F-35 true super cruise capability as well as higher top-end. Just like with F-16 variants, the later versions had 27% more thrust than the originals. People seem to forget this aircraft is still in development, it will get better.
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Re: The F-35 is not dead

Post by sky's the limit »

http://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/story/2 ... ewski.html

In a dogfight of defence contractors, the hunter can quickly become the hunted. It's happening now to the F-35.

The world's largest defence contractor, Lockheed Martin, is trying to convince wavering U.S. allies — including Canada — to stick with its high-tech, high-priced and unproven F-35 stealth fighter. But the F-35 is way behind schedule, way over budget and, now, it's grounded by a mysterious crack in a turbine fan.

After years of technical problems, it's a tempting target for Lockheed Martin's rivals.

It's no surprise, then, that the No. 2 defence contractor, Boeing, smells blood.

With Ottawa now reviewing its previous commitment to buy the F-35, Boeing is making an aggressive pitch to Canadian taxpayers, offering to save them billions of dollars if they buy Boeing's Super Hornets instead.

Boeing isn't pulling its punches. The Super Hornet, it says, is a proven fighter while the F-35 is just a concept — and an expensive one at that.

Ricardo Traven is a former Canadian air force pilot and now chief test pilot for the Super Hornet, Boeing's rival fighter jet to Lockheed Martin's F-35. (Terry Milewski/CBC News)
"We call it competing with a paper airplane," says Ricardo Traven, Boeing's chief test pilot for the Super Hornet. A Canadian who flew fighters for 15 years in the Canadian Air Force, Traven dismisses the F-35 as a "shiny brochure of promises," and contrasts it with "the real thing," which looms behind him in a top-secret hangar at Boeing's vast production line in St. Louis, Missouri.

All photographs and video are closely monitored by Boeing staff to ensure nothing classified leaks out. Many of the Super Hornet's best selling points, they say, are classified. The same goes for the F-35. The difference, says Traven, is that the Super Hornet is long since proven.

It has two engines to the F-35's one — and, unlike the F-35, it's ready now. Some 500 Super Hornets are already in service with the U.S. Navy. Dozens have already been sold to the Australian Air Force, which, like Canada, was once committed to the F-35 but gave up waiting for it to prove itself.

Boeing and Lockheed Martin both say their plane is superior in various ways. Lockheed Martin's headline feature is stealth. Boeing's is price. But with defence budgets shrinking everywhere, price is increasingly what governments want to hear about.

On that, Boeing thinks it has a compelling case — and not just because its plane is cheaper.

The Super Hornet currently sells for about $55 million US apiece; the Pentagon expects the F-35 to cost twice as much — about $110 million. But only 20 per cent of the cost of owning a fighter fleet is the actual sticker price of the planes. Eighty per cent is the operating cost — what it takes to keep them flying. That means everything from pilots and fuel to maintenance and spares.

Psst! Wanna save $23B?
And that's where the difference between the F-35 and the Super Hornet rockets into the stratosphere.

"The current actual costs to operate a Super Hornet are less than half the cost that the F-35 is projected to be once it's in operation, just to operate," says Mike Gibbons, vice-president in charge of the Super Hornet program.

Less than half? But how can he know that, since the F-35s are not yet in service?

'Twin engines, dual redundant hydraulics … those are the things I don't want to give up in flying to remote places or even in combat, because those are the things that'll bring you home.'
—Super Hornet chief test pilot Ricardo Traven
Gibbons is ready for the question. "No one knows actually how costly that jet will actually be, once it's in operation. We do know how affordable the Super Hornet is currently because we have actual costs." The Super Hornet costs about $16,000 an hour to fly, he says — and the F-35 will be double that.

Really? That sounded too good to be true — so CBC News dug into Boeing's figures to see how credible they are.


According to the GAO, the Super Hornet actually costs the U.S. Navy $15,346 an hour to fly. It sounds like a lot — until you see that the US Air Force's official "target" for operating the F-35 is $31,900 an hour. The GAO says it's a little more — closer to $32,500.

CBC also asked Lockheed Martin to say if it had any quarrel with these numbers — and it did not.

In a written response, a Lockheed spokesman declined to offer any different figures, but insisted the F-35's operating costs would be "comparable to or lower than" the "legacy platforms" — meaning, older jets — that it will replace. Those do not include the Super Hornets, which Boeing says are 25 per cent cheaper to run than Canada's "legacy" CF-18s.

Lockheed also claimed the F-35 would "achieve cost advantages … by leveraging economies of scale" gained by selling one fighter, with one supply chain, to different countries. However, it remains to be seen whether those economies of scale are ever realized.

As it stands, the official estimate for a fleet of 65 F-35s is that they will cost $9 billion to buy and almost $37 billion to operate over the next 42 years. So, a total of just under $46 billion. If Boeing's figures hold up, the Super Hornets would cost about half that.

The math is easy, but the result is eye-popping nonetheless. It's a saving of up to $23 billion.

Numbers like that have a way of getting attention.

Sure, but what about stealth?
The next question is, though — is it a second-rate plane? Instead of the "Fifth Generation" stealth fighter that Lockheed Martin advertises, does Canada want to settle for a not-so-stealthy Generation 4.5?

Boeing is ready for that question, too. Mike Gibbons, the VP, phrases his answer carefully.

"We know that the Super Hornet has effective stealth, and that's really the key. In fact, we believe we have a more affordable stealth than many other platforms that are being designed specifically and touted as stealthy platforms."

The Harper government announced in 2010 it would buy 65 F-35 Joint Strike Fighter aircraft, but decided to restart the fighter jet procurement process after a highly-critical report last spring from the auditor general. (Tom Reynolds/Lockheed Martin Corp./Reuters)
Of course, he means the F-35 — and he's not claiming to have better stealth, just more affordable stealth. But his test pilot, Ricardo Traven, says that doesn't mean the Super Hornet is less likely to survive in combat.

As a pilot with experience in the North, says Traven, he'd rather fly with a little less stealth and little more agility. Lockheed Martin gave up agility, he argues, to gain the former.

On the Super Hornet, "sacrifices were not made for the purpose of stealth," he explains. After numerous winter landings on frozen Canadian runways, he says, "You want an airplane with large control surfaces, large flaps … these things give the airplane a lot of manoeuverability."

Related video: Watch Ricardo Traven's response to the stealth question
Proponents of stealth, though, want everything smaller so as to reduce the plane's visibility on radar.

"The stealth engineers don't want large flaps, they don't want large ailerons, they don`t want large wings, so everything is shrunk down on an airplane like that to be stealthy. And so the cost of stealth is not just the money. The cost is in capability and in performance …. Those capabilities and performance I do not believe are worth the sacrifice for stealth," says Traven.

'The goose that didn't get the memo'
These factors, Traven insists, make the Super Hornet more "survivable," even if it's less stealthy. Similarly, he touts the virtues of having twin engines. Sure, the F-35's single engine may be very reliable, he says — but what if a bird gets sucked in?

"It's the goose that didn't get the memo," he says, which could destroy a single-engined aircraft. With two engines, the pilot can still fly. Equally, Traven says, the Super Hornet's landing gear is more rugged and more suited to snowy or slushy northern runways.

Boeing's Super Hornet - a two-seat, two-engine fighter jet - does not have the same level of stealth capability of the F-35, but it comes in at a much lower price. (Terry Milewski/CBC News)
"Twin engines, dual redundant hydraulics … I mean, I can go on and on," Traven enthuses. "Those are the things I don't want to give up in flying to remote places or even in combat, because those are the things that'll bring you home."

Related video: Watch Traven's response on flying in the North
Don't say Boeing doesn't know how to do a sales job. And Lockheed Martin's no slouch, either. In fact, Lockheed has a Canadian chief test pilot, too — Billie Flynn, who's doubly Canadian, if it comes to that, because he's married to Canadian astronaut Julie Payette.

Top that, Boeing!

Actually, Traven has some high-orbit Canadian connections, too. He's an old Air Force buddy of another well-known pilot: Gen. Tom Lawson, no less — who's now Canada's chief of defence staff.

Lawson has long been a fan of the F-35, but has recently begun to downplay the importance of stealth. He told CBC News that government decision-makers might do well to listen to his former comrade.

"Every aircraft brings a level of stealth," said Lawson — not just the F-35. The new secretariat that is looking at alternatives, he said, will have to see just how much stealth each plane offers.

Does the Super Hornet have what it takes? "I don't know," Lawson replied.

"We're going to leave that to the team to look at. We don't have Super Hornets. We have not, until recently, even considered purchasing them. So I think that Ricardo Traven, my good friend that you mentioned, might have something to say about that, that would interest the teams, the whole-of-government teams, that are together to consider it."

Start your engines
So, the contest is on — and, if it was once wired to make sure the F-35 won, it isn't now. The government insists it really is "hitting the reset button" and is serious about looking for alternatives.

The Boeing Prologue Room in St. Louis, Missouri showcases models of the number-two U.S aircraft maker's signature planes, including the new F/A-18E or Super Hornet. Canada's current fighter jets are an earlier model of the F-18. (Sara Brunetti/CBC News)
CBC News contacted the European manufacturers of the Typhoon — also known as the Eurofighter — as well as Dassault, the French maker of the Rafale, and Sweden's Saab, which makes the Gripen. All said they've been contacted by the Canadian government and were ready to make their pitches.

But it's Boeing's entry that will grab most attention. It's the only American competitor for the F-35, and being "interoperable" with the U.S. is a big deal for Canada. Boeing is also offering to meet or beat the amount of contracts — known as "industrial benefits" — that Lockheed Martin would steer to Canadian companies.

With billions at stake, this battle of the giants will be worth watching.
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Re: The F-35 is not dead

Post by frosti »

Boeing is getting desperate and CBC is buying their bullshit with that bias piece of trash.
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Re: The F-35 is not dead

Post by Tom H »

To add a little to the discussion....

http://www.ejection-history.org.uk/Airc ... CF-104.htm

Count the number of bird ingestions and FOD ingestions failures only...it tells a whole story on it's own as bird ingestions and FOD ingestion have nothing to do with engine reliability or engine design.

In my opinion anyway
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Re: The F-35 is not dead

Post by frosti »

And yet, there were no shortage of pilots. :smt017 Until that happens I think single engine fighters are going to be common in the future.
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Re: The F-35 is not dead

Post by Skyhunter »

Tom H wrote:To add a little to the discussion....

http://www.ejection-history.org.uk/Airc ... CF-104.htm

Count the number of bird ingestions and FOD ingestions failures only...it tells a whole story on it's own as bird ingestions and FOD ingestion have nothing to do with engine reliability or engine design.

In my opinion anyway
Intake design sure does, and also the materials of the blades etc.
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Re: The F-35 is not dead

Post by Tom H »

http://www.ejection-history.org.uk/Coun ... canada.htm

This shows the single vs dual engine results even better...

Comparing the 86 vs 104 vs 100 vs 101
Intake design sure does, and also the materials of the blades etc.
All aircraft of the same time period, technology and if you compare only the Canadian loses..terrain and geography

Take away from it what you will
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Re: The F-35 is not dead

Post by frosti »

Tom H wrote:http://www.ejection-history.org.uk/Coun ... canada.htm

This shows the single vs dual engine results even better...

Comparing the 86 vs 104 vs 100 vs 101
Intake design sure does, and also the materials of the blades etc.
All aircraft of the same time period, technology and if you compare only the Canadian loses..terrain and geography

Take away from it what you will
So aircraft and engines from the 50's were more susceptible to crashing because of weaker blade materials and poor reliability?
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Re: The F-35 is not dead

Post by Tom H »

frosti wrote:And yet, there were no shortage of pilots. :smt017 Until that happens I think single engine fighters are going to be common in the future.
Nice way to blow off the data and minimize the value of the guy in the seat.
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Re: The F-35 is not dead

Post by Tom H »

frosti wrote:
Tom H wrote:http://www.ejection-history.org.uk/Coun ... canada.htm

This shows the single vs dual engine results even better...

Comparing the 86 vs 104 vs 100 vs 101
Intake design sure does, and also the materials of the blades etc.
All aircraft of the same time period, technology and if you compare only the Canadian loses..terrain and geography

Take away from it what you will
So aircraft and engines from the 50's were more susceptible to crashing because of weaker blade materials and poor reliability?
More importantly shows that the survivability of duals vs singles with equivalent technology in environments we operate in.

So we can choose to extrapolate forward and expect the same results with modern technolgy
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Re: The F-35 is not dead

Post by azimuthaviation »

frosti wrote:Boeing is getting desperate and CBC is buying their bullshit with that bias piece of trash.

And the pentagon is getting desperate too? Reuters is just a BS tabloid too I suppose
The Pentagon program chief for the F-35 warplane slammed the main contractors on the program, Lockheed Martin and Pratt & Whitney, accusing them of trying to "squeeze every nickel" out of the U.S. government
http://news.yahoo.com/pentagon-f-35-pro ... ector.html
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Re: The F-35 is not dead

Post by Rockie »

frosti wrote:Boeing is getting desperate and CBC is buying their bullshit with that bias piece of trash.
That's a laugh. The CBC quoted the GAO's own cost numbers and even ran them by LM who did not disagree with them. You act like they made this stuff up.

I also distinctly remember you saying you would trust the judgement of test pilots actually flying the airplane yet you ignore everything the Boeing test pilot says.

Who's biased?
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Re: The F-35 is not dead

Post by trampbike »

Rockie, you have to admit though that the following from the previous article:
Dozens have already been sold to the Australian Air Force, which, like Canada, was once committed to the F-35 but gave up waiting for it to prove itself.
is a nice piece of misinformation. Australia is still committed to the F-35. The purchase of a couple of SH actually shows just how much they are comitted, since it was only a stop-gap measure taken because of the delays.
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Re: The F-35 is not dead

Post by sky's the limit »

I think it is safe to say our man in the trenches, Frosti, is little more than a well-indoctrinated champion of the F35... It's getting old Frosti. Seriously, the entire planet is having issues with this thing, and while I could care less about the F35 in particular, I do care a great deal about my Gov't blowing extraordinary amounts of tax dollars on something we don't need, and given the military's horrendous record with maintaining just about anything, keeping it running will be an enormous issue.

Harper and his cronies already give away most of our money to the Oil and Gas industry, I don't see why giving it to Lockeed should be a foregone conclusion given the facts on hand. I can't believe this thread is still going strong...
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Re: The F-35 is not dead

Post by frosti »

Rockie wrote:
frosti wrote:Boeing is getting desperate and CBC is buying their bullshit with that bias piece of trash.
That's a laugh. The CBC quoted the GAO's own cost numbers and even ran them by LM who did not disagree with them. You act like they made this stuff up.

I also distinctly remember you saying you would trust the judgement of test pilots actually flying the airplane yet you ignore everything the Boeing test pilot says.

Who's biased?
A Boeing test pilot flogging this piece of crap. There is a surprise. Too bad the Canadian government and military isn't buying it, you know the people who make the real decisions. We need to consider long-term maintenance costs a little bit more before deciding against the F-35 that has already been invested so much in. Idiots will tell you that it's an "unproven paper airplane" because they don't get how innovation and moving forward works. Could we just replace our Baby Hornet fleet with Super Hornets or some other off-the-shelf middle-aged multi-role fighter? Sure. Will it give us bang-for-buck and a viable, modern, deterrent-calibre Royal Canadian Mounted Air Police Squadron until the next round of fighter aircraft start flying? Hell no.
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Re: The F-35 is not dead

Post by Rockie »

trampbike wrote:Rockie, you have to admit though that the following from the previous article:
Dozens have already been sold to the Australian Air Force, which, like Canada, was once committed to the F-35 but gave up waiting for it to prove itself.
is a nice piece of misinformation. Australia is still committed to the F-35. The purchase of a couple of SH actually shows just how much they are comitted, since it was only a stop-gap measure taken because of the delays.
I wouldn't call it "misinformation", but it could leave one with an inaccurate impression. Australia cannot afford to wait around for the F-35 to come on line and has bought an additional 24 (not 2) super hornets in the interim. They are only contractually obligated to receive two F-35's that will remain in the US for the purposes of training the initial cadre of operational F-35 pilots whenever that happens. They could easily opt out of the remainder and either try and sell the two they are committed to or just eat the cost. Either option is cheaper than buying the rest of the planes and is a distinct possibility given the jet's endless list of problems.
frosti wrote:A Boeing test pilot flogging this piece of crap. There is a surprise.
A Lockheed Martin test pilot flogging this piece of crap. There is a surprise.

Do you remember that conversation several pages ago frosti?
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Re: The F-35 is not dead

Post by Old fella »

Two ex- Canadian military pilots( no doubt both are highly trained with academic qualifications) in a pissing contest on whose dick errr fighter jet is better...... interesting to find out who has the best paying job with the superior tangible benefits. This topic and thread is getting as good as a concert and believe me, I attended my share of stand up comic routines. Even got to see George Carlin!!

:partyman: :weedman:
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Re: The F-35 is not dead

Post by trampbike »

Rockie wrote:They are only contractually obligated to receive two F-35's that will remain in the US for the purposes of training the initial cadre of operational F-35 pilots whenever that happens. They could easily opt out of the remainder and either try and sell the two they are committed to or just eat the cost.
They sure could, but so far they remain commited, and that was my only point: I thought the article wasn't very rigorous.

Old fella wrote:Even got to see George Carlin!!
You're a lucky man!

sky's the limit wrote: I can't believe this thread is still going strong...
Not as strong as this guy (turn the volume on): http://cutmeoffmidfunk.com/
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