Guide To Buying an Aircraft - My Experiences

[freakonature]

MR. .

What are you trying to say?

[Chuck Ellsworth]

MR. .

What are you trying to say?

I am agreeing with Big Pistons statement.

And the most important factor in determining if the airplane you are wanting to buy meets these criteria and has been well maintained is hire an AME you know and trust to check it out for you.

[Strega]

I am on my 5 th airplane so I think I have some insight into the realities of aircraft ownership. There are two factors that make buying an aircraft require carefull thought.

1) The cost of parts has far outstripped inflation and the increasing regulatory burden on shops has forced up hourly shop rates dramatically. This has resulted in alot of owners scrimping on maintainance. You can get away with for awhile but eventually you have to pay the piper (no pun intended). It is often at this stage that the owner puts his aircraft up for sale. The foolish buyer will then be on the hook for 10 or more years of outstanding maintainance items.

2) Related to No 1 is the huge disparity between the cost of individual parts of an airplane and the selling price. A good example of this is the $ 32,000 Pa 28 in the earlier post.
the cost to overhaul the Pa 28 Lycoming 0 320 , including labour would be on average about $ 25,000. Doing the engine is not going to add $ 25,000 to the selling price as nobody is going to pay $57,000 for the airplane. The same goes for the other big ticket items like radios, paint, and interior.


Therefore I think you should buy the best aircraft you can find. It should have a strong engine, newer radios, and good paint and interior. It should also have a documented history of complete and regular maintainance. Buying from the top of the market will be the cheapest way to go in the long run.

I dont know what overhaul shop you are using for engines,, but an O-320 DOES NOT cost 25k to overhaul. At that price,, you would have a NEW engine. ie new crank, case, cam.

[freakonature]

MR. .

Thank you for the clarification. There would be a lot more enjoyable buying experience's if this rule of thumb was used. Me for one!

Freak

[ez4u2say]

"I dont know what overhaul shop you are using for engines,, but an O-320 DOES NOT cost 25k to overhaul. At that price,, you would have a NEW engine. ie new crank, case, cam."

The $25000 overhaul will possibly be a new engine, however add to that other factors which usually come into play at that time such as removal of the engine mount, nose gear overhaul, baffle work and cowl work etc etc not to mention the average of $75/hr labour of removing/installing said engine.....I would rather think that $25000 is probably pretty close to the amount you would eventually end up paying for an "overhauled" engine. I recently had a somewhat smaller aircraft engine overhauled and the bill came almost $20000. This particular aircraft was very well taken care of, however when you end up removing the engine and now have access to other components you might as well overhaul them as well...when you own an aircraft think BIG $ and things will not come as a shock to you...I am on aircraft #5 and this in all likelyhood will be my last...gettin too old and the wife wants to go RV ing ...ugh, just another hole to put $'s in....but I'm still havin fun...

[Big Pistons Forever]

Overhauled engine $18500
shipping and taxes 1500
labour to remove and reinstall 50 hrs@ $75/hr 3750
misc engine compartment parts 1250
total $25000

[Strega]

I call BS on the 75 hours of labour to change an engine on your average spam can,,

I have personally witness 2 mechanics change out a time expired engine on the rear of a C-337 in less than 6 hours.

[Big Pistons Forever]

I call BS on the 75 hours of labour to change an engine on your average spam can,,

I have personally witness 2 mechanics change out a time expired engine on the rear of a C-337 in less than 6 hours.

Strega

I would suggest you are not fully conversant with the realities of aircraft maintance. First of all read my post. I suggested 50 hours (not 75) as a likely (conservative) average number. Obviously there are exceptions. I would also like to point out in your example that you witnessed 12 hours of labour (2 AME's X 6 hrs = 12 labour hours. What you did not see was at least 2 labour hours to uncrate and prepare the new engine and 2 hours or so to do the required paper work. So 50 - 16 = 34 hours . That extra 34 hrs is not IMO an unreasonable amount of labour to be used to do "generally accepted" good practices during engine changes such as

1) clean and decorode engine compartment.

2) repair carb air box (They always need to be repaired)

3) repair/reconstruct baffles (see note at para 2)

4) inspect repair as necesary engine bay hoses/wires/accesories

5) runup and engine set up


I think you made my larger point though. That is a lot of folks get a nasty surprise as first time airplane owners because they do not understand all the costs involved in
running airplanes.

Finally, In your example you were watching what I would presume was a commercial operation. The operator
I fly for budgets 48 hours for a engine change on their light twins. Personnaly I would rather fly airplanes that get the amount of work they need not the minimum to get them out the door

[ez4u2say]

Hey there Strega
You may be correct...I have seen an engine changed in less than 6 hours on a commercial jet aircraft, however I think the point is the bottom line...the cost..beware that the engine is not the only thing which usually comes into play in these particular cases...

[Jungle Jim]

Hey Niss,

Next time come and see me before you spend the $$ on some of the parts. For instance:
1) Oil is abour $48.00 per case-12 liters at Mayes- Martin in Barrie
2) Tubes are about $50.00 each at Aero Supplies in Malton
3) Tires also are cheaper if you shop around.
4) You can buy a new ELT for about $200.00
5) The belt should be less than $10.00 if you have the number or the length and section size.
6) The plugs seem expensive to me. I might have 4 new ones to fit your engine you can have for $20.00 each. You are allowed to change these yourself.

Don't forget you are the one in charge of the maintenance. It looks like you are getting over charged on some parts/supplies. Did they give you a breakdown as to where the time was spent?

Also I have found that having a look-see before annual time and pre-purchasing things like hoses, brake parts, gascolator gaskets, etc is a good plan. Also you are allowed to change tires and tubes yourself as an owner. The condition of tires is obvious to the eye if they need replacement. This can be done before the annual time. There's a few guys around the airport that can and will assist you with this. Do some snooping and poking about to see how old the hoses are. If they are due, you might plan on having a set made up before annual time. They usually run about $100.00 per hose.

You mentioned that you have the transponder recertification due soon. It doesn't hurt to go thru the pitot-static system and tighten up the fittings that may result in a leak. Also before you bring the plane in for this, go for a flight and ask Toronto Terminal for an altitude check. They can confirm that the system is working as it's supposed to. The pitot dynamic pressure system can be checked on the ground. I find that asking for a Transponder functional test gets me the required logbook entries without the full transponder/pitot/static check. The cost difference is $85.00 vs about $370.00.

In short, it pays to be proactive and ask questions.

Jim

[Cat Driver]

Even better don't buy a certified airplane.

[Strega]

Ok my bad on the 75 hours,,

Even at 48 hours to change an engine,, thats wayyy tooo much time..


What you are saying, that an engine change on a light twin, ie seneca, will take one mechanic a solid week of work?

I call BS supreme.

I agree, an eternity of time can be spent polishing, straightening, rebuilding, but come on!

Ive changed an engine in a Cheroke 180,, inside of one day (with 2 guys wrenching).

[kzcvtm]

One thing that really suprises me is the relatively low cost of insurance...I honestly thought it was much more expensive.

This is a very informative thread...could the moderators turn this into a 'sticky' so all could find it quickly?

Thanks for the info Niss.

kzcvtm

[Adam Oke]

What aircraft do you own?
How much experience do you have?
How much is your insurance?

(Open question to everyone really ... low timers; preferably 500hrs and lower)

[Big Pistons Forever]

Grumman American AA1B
ATPL 5500 hrs
$ 27,000 hull and $1 Million liability insurance = $1266 yr

[Ref Plus 10]

Wow, I wish my car insurance was that good!

[Adam Oke]

That's what I was trying to point out and make sure of. $2460 for my '98 Hyundai Elantra GL Wagon .... just liabilty.... clean record (my age and sex doesn't help me any, but that's beside the point). But he/she also holds an ATPL with 5500. What about us low timers?

Insurance is flexible with hull values as well. If you only want a $10 000 check, as opposed to $30 000 ... you'll pay a cheaper premium. Unlike car insurance ... premiums are relativly fixed.

[Big Pistons Forever]

The AA1B is a pretty simple airplane so I don't get much of a break for my licenses and time. My understanding is that after 500 TT or so they care more about time on type (250 hrs in my case).

[l_reason]

[quote=$ 27,000 hull and $1 Million liability insurance = $1266 yr[/quote]
My 47' Luscombe 8E costs about the same on insurance. I'm in the same position as you Adam, cheaper to fly then drive (as far as insurance goes).

If you own the right plane (fast and cheap Luscombe 8E or F) its not that costly to fly.
300 mile flight
takes about 3 hours in the air, burning 20L/hr, total for the flight 65L. cost $95.

97 F-150 kingcab 4x4, same destination is 345 miles by road, 5.5 hours 85L. cost $86.

The truck holds a lot more stuff and is more reliable (not weather dependent). I take the plane whenever I can.

Adam, now that you have more tailwheel time you can rent mine no need to get your own

[Adam Oke]

Adam, now that you have more tailwheel time you can rent mine no need to get your own

What an offer! I'm going to have to take you up on that offer. You can expect an e-mail coming from me some time soon! Thanks,

[asteroids]

Sounds to me that it's critical to find "an aircraft mechanic you can
trust". How do you do that?

[niss]

Bump!

Its time for people to look for new aircraft. Thought I would bring this to the top.

[Big Pistons Forever]

[quote="asteroids"]Sounds to me that it's critical to find "an aircraft mechanic you can
trust". How do you do that?

I married mine

[niss]

Sounds to me that it's critical to find "an aircraft mechanic you can
trust". How do you do that?

I married mine

You know, if I thought it would get my last annual down from $4600.00 I would have too.

Sounds to me that it's critical to find "an aircraft mechanic you can
trust". How do you do that?

I used to work for mine so I like to think that he wouldnt screw me. You could just find someone people reccomend and go there, try to develope a relationship.

[frennyscott]

Ya,nice suggestion for buying an aircraft mechanic first of all to develop a relationship with that person who is reccomended to you.Then after as the time goes automatically we will put trust and will being comfortable with that person.