Mountain flying

[Colonel Sanders]

I don't think you could do a 45 degree steep turn at any airspeed in a fully loaded 172 on a hot day at those altitudes

Sure you could, but it wouldn't be a level one.

Funny how so many pilots only think in two
dimensions. It's easy to do a 90 degree steep
turn in a 172 - ball in the center, gentle as can
be - if you know how. Even at high density
altitude.

I know it's considered fashionable for the
straight and level guys here to sh1t on aerobatics
but if you have some aerobatic training, this
really is pretty simple:

[iflyforpie]

Sorry CS, in the context it was a level turn. I did mention earlier in the thread I was doing 90 degree banked turns in the 172..... definitely not level.

[Colonel Sanders]

I can already hear the harrumphing of the
four-bars here. Sure, you can maneuver a
little airplane like that, but you could never
fly like that in a larger, heavier, "real" airplane
that a four-bars flies

Well, take a look a how a grumpy old stick
and rudder pilot flies a Herc:

[Colonel Sanders]

90 degree banked ..... definitely not level

90 degrees of bank is no big deal. Again,
the four-bars will harrumph and disagree,
but you can easily sustain 90 degrees of
bank at a level altitude, even with a constant
heading if you want.

Heck, it's so easy, you can do it in formation:



Even if you're only 19 years old.

Now for a message from the four-bars:

[Cat Driver]

The wing over is a beautiful manouver.

Hey Colonel, have you noticed me and Iflyforpie may team up and start a real professional high command airplane handling school?

What think thee of that idea?

..

[Colonel Sanders]

Great idea!

PS Watch the Herc video! That guy can fly an airplane.

[Big Pistons Forever]

90 degree banked ..... definitely not level

90 degrees of bank is no big deal. Again,
the four-bars will harrumph and disagree,
but you can easily sustain 90 degrees of
bank at a level altitude, even with a constant
heading if you want.

Heck, it's so easy, you can do it in formation:



Even if you're only 19 years old.

HHmmm; you are doing pretty well but I think Eric is only holding about 85 degrees

[iflyforpie]

There isn't really a point of reference in that photo, so we will have to take your word for it.

Yeah, that Herc video was pretty cool. Too bad Bitchin' Betty has to ruin all of the fun though...

[Colonel Sanders]

point of reference in that photo

It was taken from the ground. Generally
the shadows tell the story.

Anyways, I think it is a worthwhile objective
to be able to maneuver your aircraft as well
as that Herc driver. Ok, you might not do it
all the time, but I think that video makes it
obvious that you can fly pretty much any
aircraft to 90 degrees of pitch and bank. And
beyond, in a very confined space.

The limiting factor is the pilot. I would feel
really bad if I was the limiting factor, but
unfortunately I suspect that is the case, at
least 99% of the time.

PS Yes, I know some FBW has limits. That's
a software/salesman limitation and has nothing
to do with physics or engineering.

[Colonel Sanders]

Every aircraft has what is called a "Vg diagram".
It looks something like this:



I would be very unhappy with myself if I could
not smoothly and precisely maneuver an aircraft
throughout it's entire Vg envelope.

I understand that this is not very important to
many pilots, who frequently try to fly outside
the Vg envelope. You know, stall, spin and
then die. Or, break the airplane. A guy two
hangars down from me, is quite dead now
after he tried to fly outside the Vg envelope
and not all the big pieces stayed attached.

[iflyforpie]

Well CS.... I'm pretty sure we've all been outside of the envelope at some time. I think they call it Exercise 12.

But yes, Va is a very important speed to me for that reason. Also the fact that it goes down with reduced weight.

[Colonel Sanders]

we've all been outside of the envelope

Sounds good, but when faced with a challenging
situation - be it a tight radius turn, or a strong,
gusty crosswind landing - a disappointing percentage
of the time, the pilot's limitations are exceeded
long before the aircraft's are.

This makes me sad, because what happens next
involves damaging the aircraft, and possible injury
or death to the occupants. Not doing that is extremely
important to me.

Very very few pilots are actually capable of doing
everything the aircraft is capable of. Bob Hoover
is the poster child - feathering both engines in a
piston twin, and then doing surface aerobatics.

I am extremely embarrassed when I am flying an
airplane, and the operational limitations are mine,
not the aircraft's. When that happens, it is extremely
important to me, that I become a better pilot.

It blows me away that other people are not so
concerned, and motivated. They are quite content
to drive straight and level from point A to point B,
and I guess they just hope that nothing bad ever
happens.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alaska_Airlines_Flight_261

At one point, unable to raise the nose, they attempted to fly the aircraft "upside-down"

You have to admire those guys.

[Shiny Side Up]

Sounds good, but when faced with a challenging
situation - be it a tight radius turn, or a strong,
gusty crosswind landing - a disappointing percentage
of the time, the pilot's limitations are exceeded
long before the aircraft's are.

This makes me sad, because what happens next
involves damaging the aircraft, and possible injury
or death to the occupants. Not doing that is extremely
important to me.

I think it still bears noting though that frequently that challenging situation is often at the end of a lot of bad decisions. One reads about a lot of crashes in the mountains where possibly if the airplane was flown at its limitations they might have saved the day, but its doubtful that the pilot realised it, or at least not until after it was too late. At that point their skill level becomes moot. I hear you that most pilots need to increase their ability with their airplane, but it can also be said that a lot of pilots equally need to improve their ability to assess risk and make wiser decisions.

[Colonel Sanders]

pilots equally need to improve their ability to assess risk and make wiser decisions

Sure, but what recommendations would you have made
to the crew of Alaska Airlines Flight 261 before takeoff,
to allow them to better deal with the tragic results of
their poor maintenance?

My point being is that not all tough situations are a result
of crappy pilot decision making. For example the Boeing
737 had a really nasty problem with the rudder actuator,
which wasn't a result of crappy pilot decision making.

And would you blame Chesley Sullenberger for his poor
decision to take off in an Airbus A320, when he ended
up in the Hudson River?

[Shiny Side Up]

My point being is that not all tough situations are a result
of crappy pilot decision making.

I fully agree with you on this point, I just wanted to note that both side of what constitutes a pilot's overall "skill" can use substantial work. Of all of the times that I've seen where guys have had untimely endings involving close encounters with granite, a clear majority of them were decision related problems rather than stick and rudder related ones.

edit: The point being I guess that pilots shouldn't be under the assumption that the ability to manuver like Han at 2:58 is going to permit them to be stupid about going to the rocks.

http://youtu.be/UTou2oUJYZ0

Apparently you don't have to go that far to impress chicks either.

edit 2: Thinking further along that train of thought, for everyone else, the Colonel has proven that he can fly like Han and still is wary of flying in the mountains. If you can't fly like the Colonel, then you should be more wary and careful.

[Dh8Classic]

Way back when....My initial instructor showed me how to do a minimum radius turn in case of being in a tight spot in the mountains. I don't think it was part of the standard curriculum. Haven't flown little aircraft in stuff above about 6,000 feet elevation since but maybe it could come in handy some day as I will likely be getting into the bigger stuff.

Would take a mountain flying course first though. Seem to remember it was something like slowing down, extending partial flap, turn steeply with lots of power. Or something like that. Hardly much of an aerobatic manouver.

[Colonel Sanders]

Hardly much of an aerobatic manouver

Oddly, few pilots think in the vertical for maneuvering.
They drive an airplane like they drive a car - in two
dimensions.

Flew with a sharp pilot yesterday. Showed him three
ways to turn around (reversal - there are more):

1) +5G level turn. Young, heroic pilot would do this.

2) climbing turn. Exchange airspeed for altitude. 90
degree of bank at apogee. Ball in center. Gentle,
graceful and smooth. Called a wingover.

3) pull through the vertical to 45 inverted downline,
1/2 roll upright. Can be done with positive G entirely
throughout. +4G on the entry. Called a 1/2 cuban 8.
More dramatic, I suppose, but has the advantage of
virtually zero radius required if not spiralled.

You're a pilot. Your airplane, unlike your car, goes up
and down. Make the airplane go up or down, to your
advantage. Learn to exchange airspeed for altitude
and vice versa.

[sky's the limit]

A couple things to remember in this discussion:

First, flying in the mountains is about DECISION MAKING, not an ability to pull off an aerobatic manoeuvre at the last possible moment to extricate yourself from a problem.

Second, the most common circumstance for requiring a turn-around is weather related, and IF the decision making process above has failed you to the point where consideration on how to make a minimum radius turn is on your mind, you will most likely be fighting a cloud deck and/or fog in tight quarters with surrounding and rising terrain. Exchanging airspeed for altitude is an excellent way to turn an airplane - except when you have no room to do so without going IMC or disorienting yourself. This is not a good way to think about turning around in the mountains on a bad weather day.

This is not a thread on Mountain Flying, it's a discussion on philosophy about turning airplanes. Mountain flying techniques are centred around developing a solid decision making process, not bailing ones self out at the last possible moment. If this thread were about Mountain Flying it would read very differently.

stl

[Colonel Sanders]

a cloud deck and/or fog in tight quarters with surrounding and rising terrain

That sounds like an elaborate way to commit suicide.

Flying through the mountains is hazardous enough,
without the tops of the mountains poking into a
solid cloud layer. That would be like flying VFR out
here in the flatlands, with the tops of the towers
in cloud.

[old_man]

^ Yup.

I have done wing overs (even in a helo), tight turns, and half cubans. They are fun. I would never do them in the mountains. Especially in deteriorating conditions for the simple fact that I do not have a horizon (my AI would probably topple). Mountain flying is about getting the hell out of there long before any such thing is required.

Here is a crash vid of someone flying in the mountains. Grant it, it is a helo and there are other factors but I thought I would just throw it out there. There is a lot to know about how to operate in the mountains.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NHinFTxLVss

[Shiny Side Up]

A couple things to remember in this discussion:

First, flying in the mountains is about DECISION MAKING, not an ability to pull off an aerobatic manoeuvre at the last possible moment to extricate yourself from a problem.


stl

+1

[iflyforpie]

A couple things to remember in this discussion:

First, flying in the mountains is about DECISION MAKING, not an ability to pull off an aerobatic manoeuvre at the last possible moment to extricate yourself from a problem.


stl

+1

I'd argue that all flying is based on decision making. I would rather fly with a pilot who has lousy hands and feet, but good decision making skills, than the other way around. Scott Crossfield, Steve Fosset, and Sparky Imeson are three examples of pilots with simply awe inspiring aircraft handling skills who all met their demise because of bad decisions.

[sky's the limit]

a cloud deck and/or fog in tight quarters with surrounding and rising terrain

That sounds like an elaborate way to commit suicide.

Flying through the mountains is hazardous enough,
without the tops of the mountains poking into a
solid cloud layer. That would be like flying VFR out
here in the flatlands, with the tops of the towers
in cloud.

Sounds like a flatland pilot talking Col....

Working in the mountains in either airplanes or helicopters puts a pilot in these situations daily, you really should come out heli-skiing with me sometime, I know you can afford it - big eye opener for most people what is doable and what is not. Back in my FW days in Yukon and Coastal AK, the weather was THE major factor and if you don't know how to deal with it you'll never get anything done, as those who fly there can attest to. It takes a lot of knowledge and years of experience to be able to operate in these conditions.

Not suicide at all, you just need to know how to do it safely.

stl

A very typical Mtn day:

photo (2)-2.jpg (323.15 KiB) Viewed 2552 times

[Colonel Sanders]

That's what death looks like.

[sky's the limit]

That's what death looks like.

Not at all. That's what a 6hr day working in BC in spring looks like.