College of Pilots?

[Rubberbiscuit]

As I believe "Doc " mentioned .Last I heard this is a free country. I know of several individuals who have taken more than double the time to complete the requirements of the PPL,CPL and IFR.
If they are willing and it is not unsafe then who are any of us to say they are not allowed to continue the training. It may be wasteful and maybe a Flying School should say you know this might not be for you. legislation of this is neither right nor dare democratic. I think thats what we live in do we not. " A DEMOCRACY"

Amen to that. I do not want a group of self appointed professionals telling me if I am worthy or not. I believe that is the recurring theme here.

[Widow]

re ^ Where are you getting this from? Has someone posted something definitive, someone involved or in contact with the CPPC, that has indicated a change to this effect is being contemplated?

Well, that sure gives me a warm fuzz feeling. Would "Industry Canada" approve my right to form a "professional" association of Street Walkers? Now, there's an industry that REALLY needs the government's learned input.

Geez Doc. Streetwalking is illegal in Canada, so no, Industry Canada would not give approval. In other countries, where streetwalking is legal, there are professional streetwalker associations and unions with government approval to represent an industry sector.

They too, still have to acquire a supporting membership to be viable after government approval.

[Doc]

re ^ Where are you getting this from? Has someone posted something definitive, someone involved or in contact with the CPPC, that has indicated a change to this effect is being contemplated?

Well, that sure gives me a warm fuzz feeling. Would "Industry Canada" approve my right to form a "professional" association of Street Walkers? Now, there's an industry that REALLY needs the government's learned input.

Geez Doc. Streetwalking is illegal in Canada, so no, Industry Canada would not give approval. In other countries, where streetwalking is legal, there are professional streetwalker associations and unions with government approval to represent an industry sector.

They too, still have to acquire a supporting membership to be viable after government approval.

Well then, I'll apply for a grant to do a white paper on the legalization of said Streetwalking. I'll need some "in"put. Anybody? Buelller..?

[Cat Driver]

That's what his CFI is for. Or, you could send the student to Cat Driver for a Cat Scan.....

I said I would stay out of this but it has gotten so far out of hand I am getting truly concerned that aviation the industry I lived in and for is going to hell on a rocket ship.

YOU PEOPLE DO NOT NEED MORE RULES, YOU DO NOT NEED MORE PEOPLE TELLING YOU HOW TO THINK.

WHAT YOU NEED IS TO USE THE TRAINING YOU NOW HAVE AND " THINK "

I was all for pilots and every bit as important AME's getting together in a cohesive group to support each other under the existing rules.

I am afraid, very afraid when I see those already in positions of power or influence already setting up a new empire unelected by anyone...especially if they are now employed by government.

There I feel better now that I have expressed my thoughts.

Good luck.

I will sleep tonight happy to no longer be part of the gong show that is aviation in 2010.

[AEROBAT]

My question is a simple one. Who gave them the right to "attempt" to do ANYTHING?? In my book, they have NO rights. Is this concept of "control over your futures" rub anybody else the wrong way?

Exactly the way I am beginning to feel. I also wonder why they have not bothered to seek input from the pilots they would like to have Industry Canada feel they represent.

I am starting to smell a rat.

[Widow]

Who said anything about more rules?

And Cat, are you honestly implying that Holbrook stopped caring about the industry when he rejoined TCCA?

You guys are turning this into some kind of conspiracy.

Nobody has any power or influence yet - they have to get the members before they can get power or influence! They can't get the members until they have a solid "product" to offer.

A bunch of pilots who give a sh!t got together and said, you know, people have talked about this for years, Paul Carson testified about it at the Standing Committee on Bill C-7, TC seems like they might be willing to go this way - let's try to do it!

The link to the website has been here since November last year ... viewtopic.php?f=54&t=48214&p=460045. There's been plenty of chance to take some initiative and find out more.

Otherwise, and at the risk of repeating myself and again sounding condescending, they are making sure all their ducks are in a row BEFORE they go public and try to acquire the membership they NEED in order to have any power to do anything that will affect your lives.

[armchair]

they are making sure all their ducks are in a row BEFORE they go public and try to acquire the membership they NEED in order to have any power to do anything that will affect your lives.

Hmmm... sounds familiar.... something about Poland in 1939

[av8tor_assrope]

Wow.......a logo and like 10 words…and you guys have dragged this thing on for 6 pages!!!!!

[snoopy]

Oh.... I just can't resist any more... I'm all for change in the industry, so much so that I have knowingly accepted the inevitable public flak one gets for speaking out in a crowd - because I believed it was the right thing to do. However nobody can do the job alone - every person with a vested interest must all dive in, get their hands dirty and bleed a little to make it happen. And they have to BELIEVE in themselves and in others to succeed...I just don't see this happening around here.

I would gladly support any group of people prepared to fight for proactive change in the Canadian aviation industry - providing they were a diverse bunch and representative of ALL walks of aviation, not just pilots. I am totally NOT in favor of a select group of secretive, elitist, (pardon me while I step outside of my normally politically correct self) white boy's club, unionist airline types with a few dollars in their pocket and the gift of the gab in the political arena.

If this select few has such lofty goals for the entire industry (well the fixed-wing pilot group anyway), then why do they not bravely and confidently step forward with their thoughts and ideas, with a view to enlist any and all who are willing to give - no matter how much, or how little - to the effort. And do they have such little respect for mechanics, dispatchers, ground support and everyone else that helps make the $$ burn, they seek to improve their own select ranks and leave the rest of the riff raff to wallow in the filth?

No thanks!

Those that "haven't forgotten their roots" have certainly forgotten their place.

Cheers,

Kirsten B.

[Doc]

You guys are turning this into some kind of conspiracy.
Nobody has any power or influence yet -

"yet"

If it looks like a skunk, smells like a skunk, chances are......you guessed it! It's a skunk!

Widow, why are you even involved in this?

[N181CS]

I think thats what we live in do we not. " A DEMOCRACY"

We live in a Capitalist society. Capitalism and Democracy are 2 different systems and are often confused as being the same issue. Democracy is about giving everyone a say, Capitalism is about getting rich at any price even the expense of your fellow man.

[Cat Driver]

Who said anything about more rules?

And Cat, are you honestly implying that Holbrook stopped caring about the industry when he rejoined TCCA?

widow I do not know anything about Holbrook except from what I can gather he does not fit the mold Snoopy so eloquently just described, I do not think he is one of us...as in one of the front line working grunts in the 703/704 sector.

I support a group formed by the grunts from all the industry, not just pilots, choosing those they wish to repersent them who understand the problems in the industry.

Part of the reason I survived so many decades in the industry is I learned to listen to my inner warning system that sometimes went off and did not fly until I had identified what was wrong.

This college and the group that are kick starting it without input from the grunts set of my inner warning system that something is wrong.

I am of course open to the hope it a a false warning.

[snoopy]

For the record, I have nothing against Greg Holbrook personally - in fact I've enjoyed a number of interesting conversations with him and respect a great deal of what he has accomplished. Interestingly, he does have some background in helicopters - he just doesn't emphasize it in public.

Cheers,
Kirsten B.

[Widow]

Widow, why are you even involved in this?

I'm not involved Doc. I already said, I am just a supporter of the initial concept, as were many people if that thread from November '08 is anything to go by, which is why I tried to find out more, and have shared what I've learned. I could change my mind completely when they go public, and so could you.

And since it keeps being brought up, the BOD of the CPPC is not currently made up of an exclusive "elite". There are Board members who could easily be described as "grunts", and who have fought for safety in the non-airline sector at their own peril. I would think the Board can and would, change almost entirely in composition once membership is offered to the public. Then again, I could be wrong.

I don't know if the College will fly. It doesn't affect me either way. If it doesn't fly, maybe some other group will have taken the initiative and have something better to offer. But they too, will have had to start up "secretly". There have been others to attempt something like this in the past, and in all likelihood, it will keep being tried until someone gets it right. Or not.

Either way, I agree that ultimately all sectors of the industry should be represented by a professional association, not just pilots. But this isn't my initiative.

[AEROBAT]

What I am afraid of happening is opening up the morning paper and reading about some new alphabet orginization that has been granted powers over my pilot privileges and ratings.

Or getting a registered letter in the mail telling me to show up somewhere with my log book, and cheque book, to report for registration and certification.

I have seen it happen with the agriculture industry, construction and medical.

[jeta1]

deleted

[xsbank]

I don't think I have ever heard so much mooing and bleating from you bunch of Chicken Littles on any other topic before. Threats to democracy, allusions to Nazis, "white boy's clubs" and so on. At least you can all be pleased that your behaviour is emminently Canadian - discover a problem, call for government action, do absolutely nothing yourselves but image all sorts of dire consequences, panic and run around in circles a bit, then usually you just accept whatever crap is shoved down your throats. Harmonized sales tax, carbon credits. Moooooooo!

"A free country?" Since when? Did I stumble on the crack-smoker's site by mistake?

That's a good one, Doc.

I was told it's not possible to destroy every brain cell with drink, but you lot are 'living' proof to the contrary.

[Pete]

Someone mentioned that it is too easy to become a pilot, I would agree its very easy to get a commercial license.

But at the bottom end of the pole (Non-airline), I see guys and gals interviewed for their possible first job, go up for a flight with the CFI...and never see them again, simply because they can't fly (or so they CFI says).

In a industry that has so many pilots, I highly doubt that the very weak, aren't weeded out in some fashion. I am not saying only top knotch survive either.

At the same time, being a safe pilot, a good pilot, is all about experience. Although I dont believe an employer would hire someone with little experience, if they didnt show potential. Weeding out the weak, Im sure it happens in a lot of professions.

[one8tee]

Hey Everyone.. sort of new to this thread but was reading through it a bit and here is my question.. What is the downside of having an organization that ensures all pilots are put on a master list.. meaning if an operator wants to operate a king air, a first year captain will make x amount.. the first year fo will make y amount. That way there is no discussion about what the pilots will get paid, taking away the temptation for the operator to get the pilot that will work the cheapest instead of the best pilot for the job.

Not only would this improve and standardize the pilot group but would remove the greatest single problem in our profession, the stepping on each other to get a job that we perceive as better.

Imagine not having to sacrifice pay for equipment every time you want to move to a larger aircraft.. not going from 65000 as a king air captain to 37000 as a rj/ e-190 fo. If you get laid off you DONT start at the bottom again.

just my opinion. happy new years everybody!

[flyinthebug]

Hey Everyone.. sort of new to this thread but was reading through it a bit and here is my question.. What is the downside of having an organization that ensures all pilots are put on a master list.. meaning if an operator wants to operate a king air, a first year captain will make x amount.. the first year fo will make y amount. That way there is no discussion about what the pilots will get paid, taking away the temptation for the operator to get the pilot that will work the cheapest instead of the best pilot for the job.

Not only would this improve and standardize the pilot group but would remove the greatest single problem in our profession, the stepping on each other to get a job that we perceive as better.

Imagine not having to sacrifice pay for equipment every time you want to move to a larger aircraft.. not going from 65000 as a king air captain to 37000 as a rj/ e-190 fo. If you get laid off you DONT start at the bottom again.

just my opinion. happy new years everybody!

What you are describing is a union not a "college". Thats the major problem with this thread is we are confusing two very seperate issues.

[one8tee]

they are both two names for the same thing.. union, college, association. basically the same thing.

[flyinthebug]

they are both two names for the same thing.. union, college, association. basically the same thing.

Sorry one8tee thats where your wrong. The CPPC from what I understand is seeking to oversee licencing etc which will require TC approval. If you look at the more and more ACPs and CCPs... and less and less TC rides over say the past 10 years or so (I think you can still get a ride done via TC?)Its obvious someone needs to pick up the slack. Thats where Holbrook and his group comes in. They will be the "college" that oversees the industry.. much like the College of Phys & Surgeons does. They would be responsible for ACP & CCP approvals, licencing etc etc. Im not sure they would even take up issues such as wages etc.. That is for unions to do..OR *God forbid* a person actually just steps up and does the best job they can do and achieve it on their own .....
My point is that there seems to be a mass confusion, even among our most experienced board members as to what a "college" truly is or should be.

Then there is what (I think) is what some of us have been discussing and that is a "pilot association".. One that would welcome AMEs, Bush pilots,ATC/FSS,and all people from aviation. One that would seek out membership and ask questions as they build. One that would not regulate but rather oppose the regulator when and where necessary and be voice towards improving air safety in Canada and Worldwide. Not a union, not a dictatorship but an association where issues can be discussed and improved by its members. This type of group would be more apt to wear the hat of "watch dog" for the industry and hence wages etc.


Someone pls correct me if im wrong. Ive seen widow be attacked for being the messenger and some arent even sure why they jumped on her other then confusion. She has said repeatedly that she has no involvement with the CPPC other then a casual friendship with one of its "members". I dont really think this multi-page debate has accomplished much more then mass confusion and misunderstanding. Ive given my 2 cents on what I think the confusion is about. Anyone else care to give it a try?



Fly safe all.

[ywgflyboy]

Are we STILL talking about this.

New Years resolution. Let this topic die until we know what it is actually about.

[flyinthebug]

Are we STILL talking about this.

New Years resolution. Let this topic die until we know what it is actually about.

BRAVO! Well said!

[Cat Driver]

Yes they are STILL talking about this wygflyboy for the simple reason that it just may possibly have a very big effect on being a pilot in Canada in the future.

The more they discuss it the better they will begin to understand what is happening or maybe about to happen.

Flyinthebug:

My interest in this discussion is in forming an association of 703/704 people that would be a cohesive group set aside from any existing group and answering only to their members. As I have said forever there are already enough rules for such an association to use as their guidelines.

Such a group do not need anyone's approval except the members must agree on their agendas.