College of Pilots?

[AEROBAT]

So now comes the CPPC, who, according to some, are planning to do the same thing as the CBAA - except for a different sector. I'm not quite sure what is "secret" about it, since we all seem to know somthing is up.

That's all fine and good for those of us that frequent this board that we know something is up. What about the thousands of others in this industry that do not. Should they not be made aware in some official means that "something" whatever it is is taking place?

Exactly.

[freakonature]

Dust Devil, Very good observation. Would you agree to TC releasing your mailing info to the college so that they could communicate with you?

[Dust Devil]

Dust Devil, Very good observation. Would you agree to TC releasing your mailing info to the college so that they could communicate with you?

I think it would be better if TC advised members of the industry of what is happening and give us the contact info of the college and allow us to contact them.

This could be done thru the safety letter.

[LousyFisherman]

Question, if licensing is transferred to a Professional Association, what happens to GA and/or amateur pilots?

Are they permitted to fly their own plane similar to how you are permitted to do electrical/plumbing work on your own house?
Or are they banned, like doctors and engineers?
As an amateur I don't think much of either option.

Controlling entry to a profession is very difficult. If a candidate meets the defined qualifications and tests the association MUST recognize them. In most cases where candidates are rejected it is usually because their university degree is not recognized.

Leave regulation (licensing) with the government and concentrate on your niche, professional pilots, CPLs who are actually using it (or trying to).

For a start, a simple way to regulate supply of pilots and improve professional standards is an apprenticeship program. Make the entry standard a PPL and Grade 10. Every candidate must find/have a sponsor, 2 year program. 5 years from now make the apprenticeship a requirement for the CPL .

LF

[Doc]

For a start, a simple way to regulate supply of pilots and improve professional standards is an apprenticeship program. Make the entry standard a PPL and Grade 10. Every candidate must find/have a sponsor, 2 year program. 5 years from now make the apprenticeship a requirement for the CPL .
LF

I have a real problem with this idea. Why would you need a certain level of education to hold a CPL? Most have at least a Grade 10, but that shouldn't be made a requirement. What's next? A degree for an ATPL? That's the direction I fear this thing is headed. The only change I could see to an ATPL requirement could be a flight test/PPC/type rating on an aircraft that requires an ATPL?

My biggest problem with this "college" idea, is the "cloak and dagger", "clandestine", "dark ops" way in which has come to pass.

Bottom line. This won't have any affect on me. Or Cat. Because, this thing, if it even comes out of the closet, will happen after we have long "hung up the goggles", but if I were you younger folks, I'd want a hell of a lot more serious "tell us EVERYTHING" information, before I prance into it like a ballerina in a tutu auditioning for Swan Lake.

Change is NOT always a good thing....

[Cat Driver]

As to setting a minimum education limit to be a pilot my suggestion would be grade eight.

Because that is enough to make it as a pilot.

[Dust Devil]

As to setting a minimum education limit to be a pilot my suggestion would be grade eight.

Because that is enough to make it as a pilot.

Stop it Cat Driver. You're going to make all the egotistical pilots get all butt hurt.

How could a collection of ace top gun pilots like we have on this forum be lowered to an 8th grade education.

[Cat Driver]

They can have as much education as they feel they want to get.

However grade eight is sufficient to become pilot and earn a living flying airplanes.

That is a fact.

[Doc]

They can have as much education as they feel they want to get.

However grade eight is sufficient to become pilot and earn a living flying airplanes.

That is a fact.

Raising the bar a little. I think you could do it with Grade 6. A little emotional maturity, and a grade 6 will take you all the way to an airline job. You'll need a little "gaming" ability, easily picked up through Play Stations and the like. If you can run an Xbox, you can operate a 757.

[Prairie Chicken]

Wow! What a lot of assumptions! Good grief folks, what do you know about the College? Virtually nothing that I can detect, with the exception of Widow, who has a basic understanding of who initiated the idea and why. Xsbank calls it mooing & bleating? Well put!

Who gave them the right? To do what, get together on their own time to discuss what they may be able to do to help the industry? As far as I can see, all they have done is reserve a web site, put a framework together in which they may be able to develop a plan, & are currently working on a plant to put forward to interested parties. I think what they’ve accomplished to date has been significant, but they’ve done nothing to infringe on you rights.

Ywgflyboy suggests getting off this topic until we have some facts to assess. Good plan! Johnnyhotrocks & mattedfred, I couldn’t agree more!

yyc757, thank you for stepping up, and also for stating what should be the obvious:

This is a challenging, demanding profession which requires education, training, and evaluation. This profession requires constant study to keep up to date with the latest technology, information, and regulation. This profession constantly evolves and adapts with the latest theory on risk management, crew resource management and safety management. This profession requires years of experience for advancement. This profession requires discipline and maturity. The passengers I serve and the crew members I work with expect no less.

By the way Doc, what does it take to be a rocket scientist? You might consider that what makes a good rocket scientist may not make a good pilot. Actually, I thought you were were gettting a littled wired about this thread, but your comment about Grade 6 suggests you're just stirring the pot, and smiling alll the while. If by any chance that isn't the case, I refer you back to the para above.

And Widow, thanks for arguing for common sense & logic. Keep the faith, but if it gets too painful, take a break from knocking your head against this brick wall.

[Cat Driver]

What do you know about the college Prarie Chicken?

If you are going to chastise us for having opinions could you educate us?

[Doc]

Wow! What a lot of assumptions! Good grief folks, what do you know about the College? Virtually nothing that I can detect,

Chicken, you have the floor. Educate us.

[Widow]

Widow, having a number of conversations hardly constitutes a relationship.

I only meant to infer you know him well enough to make personal contact. The avenues for you, personally, to learn more such that you can make an informed decision of support or objection are in place.

In any case, since I am not a pilot, and "forcing" my "insider information" is clearly unwelcome by several board members, I will now step out of the conversation.

I will, nonetheless, be very interested in the discussion once they are out of the planning stages and their website goes live. Which I am quite sure will be very soon and almost certainly several years before it becomes a true "college of professionals", as opposed to the "professional association" by which means it must necessarily begin.

[snoopy]

..

[Prairie Chicken]

I don’t have the answers you’re looking for. And before someone jumps to the conclusion, I am not a part of them. I’ve talked to representatives of the group and that is all. I can reiterate and substantiate what Widow has been trying to tell you but since you’ve already discounted what she had to say I won’t bother typing my fingers to the bones.

I was positively impressed with the individuals I spoke to. Both were professional and had extensive experience in the industry. My notes indicate they have involvement from over a dozen different operators (which suggests more than just 705 to me, but I don’t know for sure). They stressed that they are not trying to be another union.

I understood that to date their efforts have gone from discussions over beer about the sad state of the industry; to discussions about if they could do anything about it; to obtaining legal advice as to how to establish an organizational framework to get things going.

I understood they established a legally incorporated framework within which to operate. The steps Widow spoke about represent their efforts to date. They have an interim executive until such time as they are established to the extent of calling for elected reps. All of this sounds to me like a professional and necessary way to go about establishing themselves—rather more useful than complaining on our forum! The last I heard, the CPPC were working on a Code of Conduct, constitution and business practices. They were also trying to determine if and to what extent TC are willing or likely to enter into a Safety Partnership Program. My personal suspicion is that it is the latter which is holding up their progress—if TC won’t buy in, that might end the effort—and we all know TC don’t get anything done fast.

To those of you willing to put some energy into the effort, or to learn more about the group, Widow can make the introductions. That's all I did.

[jeta1]

deleted.

[Cat Driver]

A college of pilots may be beneficaial to pilots but the industry consists of a lot more than pilots.

Please allow me to make it a lot more simple and describe what I believe would really benefit the industry at the 703 / 704 level where there has historically been poor safety and poor working conditions.

Form a group like " Neighborhood watch " and include all members of the industry.

These groups are private citizens who look out for each others safety, and help the police by " watching " when they see something suspicious they report it.

Neighborhood watch groups do not need the approval of any authorities they supplement some of the duties of the police by looking out for their neighborhood.

Such a group in aviation would not need the approval of anyone except their own group.

An added benefit would be it would not be very attractive to professional empire builders, especially those already in a empire.

[Cat Driver]

The last I heard, the CPPC were working on a Code of Conduct,

Yeh that otta really make it attractive, especially if they pattern it after TCCA's code of conduct and abide by it like they do in TCCA.

Just the memory of my experience with the office of the DGCA and the misery I went through with TCCA's " Quality Assurance " department makes me want to throw up.

[Prairie Chicken]

Cat, I think your 'neighbourhood watch' idea has a lot of merit. It could be initiated right here, with no extensive or expensive framework to make it work, and no need for any approval other than by those who elect to participate.

You didn't specify to whom any potential violations would be reported. I hope it would be to TC and not to a vigilante group. The police wouldn't be interested, or would just refer to TC. I hope that doesn't dampen your enthusiasm. Alerting TC to potential or apparent violations has always been available to those in the industry but has been under utilized.

Just a thought. What do the rest of you think?

[Doc]

Cat, I think your 'neighbourhood watch' idea has a lot of merit. It could be initiated right here, with no extensive or expensive framework to make it work, and no need for any approval other than by those who elect to participate.

You didn't specify to whom any potential violations would be reported. I hope it would be to TC and not to a vigilante group. The police wouldn't be interested, or would just refer to TC. I hope that doesn't dampen your enthusiasm. Alerting TC to potential or apparent violations has always been available to those in the industry but has been under utilized.

Just a thought. What do the rest of you think?

WOW! Talk about "swinging at windmills"! Guys have been going to TC with complaints about "pressure" including overloads, duty times etc. for years. TC's reaction is almost always to bury their heads deeper in the sand. When's the last time anybody here, touched base with enforcement, or their regional TC office, and had anything followed up on? Bottom line. It doesn't work. Look at the crap a certain YWG company got away with for years.....and they operate out of the same hangar as TC. Make no mistake, I've known some really nice folks at TC, but for the most part, they seem to be waiting their pensions to kick in.
To be really honest with you, it leaves a sour taste in my mouth, dealing with a government operation that will try to violate some poor sot for not changing his address within 7 days, but lets some of the dangerous crap just continue to happen. I mean, how far up their butt are their priorities?
Your thoughts?

[carholme]

Doc;

Bang on! TC talks a big line but fades quickly when legitimate complaints are heard.

It seems lately that the TC people who have registered on this forum have a lot of advice for the aviation community, yet I do not recall too many of them voicing their opinions and standing up for us when they were working there.

Funny how, with a pension in hand, tongues loosen up and we are expected to believe that they now have the answers that we have waited so long for.

Yes there are many good people at TC and I know many of them but they will not start to speak out of the other side of their mouths just because the shackles have been removed.

Again, where were you when we needed you?

carholme

[flyinthebug]

Prairie Chicken.. Thanks for the insight. At least we know what we are discussing now.

I do have to say though that I dont disagree with Doc or carholme. I too have turned to you guys once and all I got for my trouble was a 525$ fine for an improper log entry. I have some friends that went the TC route and even went as far as calling one of them and seeking their counsel. To be honest, they offered the same advice as you did after hearing my story. I took that advice, provided every possible detail to them, weather for that particular day, ops info, etc etc. I had DOCUMENTED each violation this waste of skin had and STILL it was me that ended up fined for writing in my book what I was told to write in my book. TC`s enforcement was and is a joke. All I can hope is this "college" will do a better job of defending the people who trust in their regulator then TC has done. Lets face it, I blew the whistle and all I got for my troubles was a fine and my logbook gone through with a fine tooth comb. When they couldnt find anything else to charge ME with, they charged me for the same EXACT thing I was lodging my complaint against. The very operator I had made the entry for,..the same operator that I had blown the whistle on.. was the ONE entry in my logbook that TC violated me for. In simple words, I was violated for the infraction that I reported. Hows that for support? Its laughable.

Ive seen plenty of other issues at other air services since that time and I have NO desire to talk to TC about them. They have managed to take the small amount of faith I had in them and turn it into nothing. TC failed me. TC failed MANY on this board. My support for this type of college will be flimsy at best. I know you suggested this isnt a union.. But if it walks like a duck and quacks like a duck........You know the rest.


Fly safe all.

[Cat Driver]

Well, well, well sometimes one is given an opportunity that is to good to pass up so Priarie Chicken I shall respond to your latest attempt to minimize my efforts to help my fellow aviators.

Just beore I start I would like to remind the other members of this forum that when you and I first started communicating here you flat out suggested that my problems with TCCA were probably self inflicted and they gave me what I deserved, those were not your exact words but they are very close to what you said.

Cat, I think your 'neighbourhood watch' idea has a lot of merit. It could be initiated right here, with no extensive or expensive framework to make it work, and no need for any approval other than by those who elect to participate.

Yes, I am happy to see you have grasped that simple fact.

You didn't specify to whom any potential violations would be reported. I hope it would be to TC and not to a vigilante group. The police wouldn't be interested, or would just refer to TC. I hope that doesn't dampen your enthusiasm. Alerting TC to potential or apparent violations has always been available to those in the industry but has been under utilized.

Vigilantism is the last resort for desperate people who are ruled by despots and corrupt authorities, from vigilantism it escilates into overthrow of the government by the population through force, I do not believe Canada has slipped that far yet.

TCCA is not the only Federal Agency that has the power to uphold and enforce Federal law, we also have the RCMP who can and will step in and force TCCA to perform the duties that they by law are responsible to perform.

Such a group would also have the power to attract attention from the media should TCCA refuse to act on documented complaints and the group can ask for the intervention of M.P.'s using the voting hammer to motivate them into action.

I can safely make that statement having had to use that route to enforce the law when TCCA would not do so.

It is a matter of record in the court system.

You are really insulting our intelligence by suggesting that going to TCCA with complaints will solve the problems within 703 / 704 companies, in fact the response from posters here shows just how useless that avenue has been in the past.

Just a thought. What do the rest of you think?

I am willing to bet that more of the members of this board will agree with me than with you Prairie Chicken when it comes to how useless TCCA has been in the past in their response to complaints from the grunt sector of aviation.

I hope I have remained civilized enough in my response to you Prairie Chicken? At least civilized enough to prevent the thread from being pulled by anyone in your camp who do not like to have this subject really examined.

Few here noticed how quickly the thread inquiring as to the whereabouts of Clunkdriver was evaporated.

For a couple of months I did not post on Avcanada and have returned because I received enough P.M.s and E-mails asking me to keep posting, therefore I will try and be at least civil to the best of my ability in the hope my posts will not be removed.


_________________

[mcrit]

Bang on! TC talks a big line but fades quickly when legitimate complaints are heard.

Mabye the College should have the authority to issue/revoke OCs and AMOs. That is pretty much the only practical way they are going to improve safety.

[Doc]

Bang on! TC talks a big line but fades quickly when legitimate complaints are heard.

Mabye the College should have the authority to issue/revoke OCs and AMOs. That is pretty much the only practical way they are going to improve safety.

There's a real bright idea. Nobody knows anything about them.....lets give them POWER!!! Who are those guys? mcrit wants to give them POWER!! Give your head a shake.