College of Pilots?

[Doc]

Mattedfred...this "college" thing seems near and dear to you. I'm rattling your cage!

[mattedfred]

it is. i plan to spend another 28 years flying commercially.

so were you just rattling my cage on the college thread as well then?

[Cat Driver]

Are you actively involved in setting up this college mattedfred or do you know the people setting it up?

[Doc]

it is. i plan to spend another 28 years flying commercially.

so were you just rattling my cage on the college thread as well then?

I don't want to hijack this thread, but no. I'm dead against the "college".(unless they come "out of the woodwork" and cease the "cloak and dagger" crap) As for yourself, if you're not actively involved, I can't see what good it'll do you, even if it flies (which I'm willing to bet it won't) as you're already working for a solid, unionized operation?

Nah! I'm pissing on your Corn Flakes....

Or, am I....?

[mattedfred]

should we move our discussion over to the college thread?

[Dust Devil]

I'm dead against the "college".(unless they come "out of the woodwork" and cease the "cloak and dagger" crap)

The Guild of Air Pilots and Navigators has recently set up in Canada . Seems they know who the CPPC are ...

COLLEGE OF PROFESSIONAL PILOTS of CANADA
The developing relationship with the newly formed College of Professional Pilots of Canada continues to flourish. Capt David Martin, a Member of the Court (effectively the Board) of the Guild in London attended a November meeting of the College Board in Calgary. David gave a well received presentation on the Global activities of the Guild and the opportunities available for the College and its members with the development of the Guild in Canada. Your Board will be working hard to continue progress in this important opportunity area with College President (and new Guild Canada member) David Coles and Colin Bechtel.

http://www.gapan.org/upload/file/84_gui ... c-09-3.pdf

Just sayin' ...

Looks like there is plenty going on behind the scenes that only a privileged few are aware of.

[mattedfred]

Dust Devil,

I assume you are a pilot?

Interesting how Widow, a non-pilot, chose to and has been able to find out some information.

[ywgflyboy]

Dust Devil,

I assume you are a pilot?

Interesting how Widow, a non-pilot, chose to and has been able to find out some information.

I do not know much about you, but I do know a lot about widow. Widow is a major advocate of aviation safety and has done more work towards that then most pilots have on here (combined). Aviation is made up of more than just pilots.

I think this is getting off topic. I notice no one has pissed off any ATC lately... Lets go ambush them over in their forum.

[Dust Devil]

Dust Devil,

I assume you are a pilot?

Interesting how Widow, a non-pilot, chose to and has been able to find out some information.

What does that have to do with this "college"

My comments had nothing to do with Widow. It was simply a reply to the story she posted

[GTODD]

A few months ago when I first heard about this College I was actually in favour of it, however the more I have learned about what it might involve the more I have come to dislike the idea of a College of Pilots. Off the top of my head here is a quick summary of just a few of the concerns raised by other people on here.
The creation of this college will result in:
1.)More Fees
2.)More Tests
3.)More bureaucracy
4.)It becoming harder to get an ATPL (for example it is possible you might have to have a degree from a certain school in order to qualify for an ATPL)
5.)Small flight schools will be run out of business, resulting in fewer jobs for flight instructors. Those flight instructors will go elsewhere thus taking jobs away from other low time pilots.

Another major concern raised is that this is all being done behind closed doors, by a group that might only have their own interests in mind.

None of these things sound very appealing to me. I know it has been said before, but I want to add myself to the list of people that want proof that these things won’t happen. Some random person on avcanada replying to this and saying “wait and see, don’t worry about it” doesn’t cut it.

[scopiton]

Off the top of my head here is a quick summary of just a few of the concerns raised by other people on here.

okay, but what do you know exactly about this college that would help you to adjust your quick summary off the top of your head...?

people don't even know what they're talking about, and they already know what will happen........truly amazing.

[Doc]

okay, but what do you know exactly about this college that would help you to adjust your quick summary off the top of your head...?

No, he doesn't. Kicker is, neither do you. Neither do any of us. Since I'm now allowed to say it like it is, pilots are not professionals. Oh sure, some sure talk the talk, but with some of the absolute crap performances from pilots of late, way too many to mention, we are no more "professional" as a group than the guys who do any other "blue collar" type job anywhere in the country.
I get a kick out of the simple fact, the only people who claim to be in the "know" aren't even pilots.
We have "professionals" land gear up at the rate of almost once a month. We have "professionals" BUYING their jobs. We have companies with unions that can't shake the term "essential service" for their "professional" pilots. We allow ourselves to be "pushed" by scum bag companies. We still overload. We bust minimums. Face it, we're no where near as "professional" as the Grey Hound drivers.
And, for some unknown reason, some non-pilots, and some pilots going through life wearing rose colored glasses, seem to think we need a professional "college" of pilots!
So scopiton, how exactly will this marvelous college do the trick? Do tell.

[mattedfred]

Respectfully Doc,

So how do you suggest we solve the problems that you have identified?

Would you suggest that these problems be left up to the individual to resolve? If so, then how do you explain why too many of us have been doing a poor job on our own?

Do you disagree that a group of pilots could lobby more effectively than an individual pilot?

[mattedfred]

Dust Devil,

I assume you are a pilot?

Interesting how Widow, a non-pilot, chose to and has been able to find out some information.

What does that have to do with this "college"

My comments had nothing to do with Widow. It was simply a reply to the story she posted

Respectfully Dust Devil,

I assumed that you were referring to Widow when you elected to use the term 'privileged' in the post I was responding to. I thought that my assumption was valid as Widow was one of the very few that had been posting any details to date. Perhaps you do not consider her to be one of these privileged few.

I still find it interesting that you feel you must be considered privileged in order to learn any details about this project.

Please outline what steps you have taken to learn more?

[Cat Driver]

It is difficult to take steps in the dark and until this college starts communicating with those they are planning on representing no one has a clue as to what exactly they plan on doing.

I have read the link to the " Guild of air pilots and navigators " and got to thinking about how conversant these people would be with the day to day problems the 703/704 sector of aviation face and how exactly they would help solve these problems.

Once again let me ask you people a question.

Would you not be better served by having your own people who are working in your part of aviation try and solve the problems as an association with leaders picked by you and not associated with groups who may have a different agenda than yours?

Or is that to simple a concept to grasp?

[Doc]

Respectfully Doc,

So how do you suggest we solve the problems that you have identified?

Would you suggest that these problems be left up to the individual to resolve? If so, then how do you explain why too many of us have been doing a poor job on our own?

Do you disagree that a group of pilots could lobby more effectively than an individual pilot?

Only the individual can lower the landing gear. Only the individual can refuse to be bullied or pushed. Only the individual can refuse to pay for jobs. At least in the foreseeable future.
A group is more effective than the individual. We have unions today. Some granted, work better than others.
But, all the unions/colleges out there are not going to prevent pilots from landing gear up, busting minimums, flying overloads, etc.
What we need TODAY is for pilots to start thinking. This isn't happening. Obviously.
I'm against any "covert" group, operating under a "cloak of darkness" that is trying to rise up and "take over", just out of principal. Come out of the closet. We shouldn't have to ferret them out. They should come to us.
I'm very concerned about "mom and pop" operations that will be forced to tow the "party line". I don't think they'll ever have the power to stand up to a larger (not talking AC, WJ and the lot....they will be unaffected)government funded, minority owned, operations who, are allowed to run rough shod over the general pilot population, just because to to go against them could, be seen as racist?

[Doc]

Would you not be better served by having your own people who are working in your part of aviation try and solve the problems as an association with leaders picked by you and not associated with groups who may have a different agenda than yours?

Or is that to simple a concept to grasp?

Far better idea. The key words here are...."picked by you..."

[Cat Driver]

Doc, there are already to many rules.

Each working stiff in aviation should know their job and should know the boundaries of safety to perform their job.

The engineers and pilots are already licensed and " should " know the boundaries of safety.....if they do not then kick their asses out of the business.

Just imagine how much money there would be for skilled pilots and engineers if the industry had the millions of dollars that have been spent fixing bent aircraft or buying new ones to replace those wrecked by pilots in the past couple of years who were not doing their job properly.

[Doc]

A few months ago when I first heard about this College I was actually in favour of it, however the more I have learned about what it might involve the more I have come to dislike the idea of a College of Pilots. Off the top of my head here is a quick summary of just a few of the concerns raised by other people on here.
The creation of this college will result in:
1.)More Fees
2.)More Tests
3.)More bureaucracy
4.)It becoming harder to get an ATPL (for example it is possible you might have to have a degree from a certain school in order to qualify for an ATPL)
5.)Small flight schools will be run out of business, resulting in fewer jobs for flight instructors. Those flight instructors will go elsewhere thus taking jobs away from other low time pilots.

Another major concern raised is that this is all being done behind closed doors, by a group that might only have their own interests in mind.

None of these things sound very appealing to me. I know it has been said before, but I want to add myself to the list of people that want proof that these things won’t happen. Some random person on avcanada replying to this and saying “wait and see, don’t worry about it” doesn’t cut it.

Very good post. Very valid points. Would the <1% of the pilot group, that have ANY idea what's going on, like to comment??

[mattedfred]

Respectfully Doc,

So how do you suggest we solve the problems that you have identified?

Would you suggest that these problems be left up to the individual to resolve? If so, then how do you explain why too many of us have been doing a poor job on our own?

Do you disagree that a group of pilots could lobby more effectively than an individual pilot?

Only the individual can lower the landing gear. Only the individual can refuse to be bullied or pushed. Only the individual can refuse to pay for jobs. At least in the foreseeable future.
A group is more effective than the individual. We have unions today. Some granted, work better than others.
But, all the unions/colleges out there are not going to prevent pilots from landing gear up, busting minimums, flying overloads, etc.
What we need TODAY is for pilots to start thinking. This isn't happening. Obviously.
I'm against any "covert" group, operating under a "cloak of darkness" that is trying to rise up and "take over", just out of principal. Come out of the closet. We shouldn't have to ferret them out. They should come to us.
I'm very concerned about "mom and pop" operations that will be forced to tow the "party line". I don't think they'll ever have the power to stand up to a larger (not talking AC, WJ and the lot....they will be unaffected)government funded, minority owned, operations who, are allowed to run rough shod over the general pilot population, just because to to go against them could, be seen as racist?

Respectfully Doc,

I tried to pose very direct questions to make it easier for us to get to the heart of this discussion. I find it difficult to decipher your direct answers so I apologize if I miss your point.

I agree that any group that represents any component of our industry will not reduce the number of incidents or accidents to zero. I'm sure we can both agree that it would impossible for anyone to do so. I would be interested to know of an industry that has zero human errors.

I disagree that the College is operating covertly, under a cloak of darkness and is trying to take over anything. I fully expect them to come to us when they have anything pertinent to present. I think you are letting your ignorance of this subject increase your level of fear. Surely someone of your age and experience would be able to control such influences.

I assume that your last statement has to do with your relationship with your employer and their immediate competitor. I will not comment on this issue as I have very limited knowledge of either.

It would appear that you think that all we need to do is to just start telling pilots to think more. I don't think your solution would be that effective. The question should be, why aren't they thinking more? What was their thought process at the time of the incident and accident? etc

I'm afraid that you are either unable or unwilling to offer any tangible solutions to the problems that you have identified. I'm also afraid that you appear to form your opinions based more on comments you read on an anonymous forum than based on any facts that you have either been provided with or researched yourself. Perhaps you would be less fearful if you chose to contact the college and learn more.

I find it hard to believe that Widow has spent more time and energy to learn about our industry and work to make it safer than many of the regular posters on this forum (including myself). Is this because most of us just want a place to yank each other's chains or do we really intend to put our money where are mouth is?

[scopiton]

doc,
I would second what Mattedfred wrotte and said in a better way than I would have.

Concerning Mom and Pop operations I understand what your concern is and that those structures would stay behind at one time. Yes thinking is the first step for safer and cleaver pilots but if they could rely on a group that could help them and defend them, protect them from their employer's bad decisions or orders, I think it's good.

I don't wear pink sunglasses and I've been confronted to a quiet realistic carateristic of this industry when I lost my job because my former employer prefered to hire pilots paying 20.000$ for a 16.000$/Y pay on a b100, and I expressed my concern about this.
I ask you doc : is this nomal ?
then I ask you : what solution do you have to stop those kind of things ?
Just think won't do it, but drawing an official line between what is legal or not in this industy and should be punished might help to define what you can or can't stand up against before being treated like a gangster.

You receive what you send and in few precise cases, the employer who doesn't respect his employees shouldn't be surprised to receive the equivalent under a form or another.
To find a civilian and objective manner to fix rules can be good and positive.

[xsbank]

Sure is a lot of negativity and paranoia here. We have now all heard what a lot of you don't want, Doc has enumerated the safety thing, what some of us have been harping on forever, but nobody, even the most vocal critics, can get past the education thing, which is a total red herring (although I note that BCIT requires Grade 12 to get in to their electrician's course!) and the spectre of (I can hardly say it....) FEES has got the whole lot of you mooing and bleating.

How about forming a collection of things we would LIKE to see?

If you think a college is the biggest threat to aviation and your 'careers,' you have your heads firmly up your.... you know.

[Doc]

I'm off this topic.

[mattedfred]

i'm sorry that we are unable to continue our dialogue

[Doc]

i'm sorry that we are unable to continue our dialogue

You can't lure me out that easily! It will require alcohol, or at leas cookies!