College of Pilots?

[Dust Devil]

I read in some other threads about this college that some people feel that OC holders should be excluded from such an organization? I'm assuming this would include one pilot one airplane operators. Why do they not deserve a voice? Sure there may not be the same employer employee issues but there are other issues in the industry

"Why would they not a deserve a vote?" A "vote"? A vote on what?

Not sure what you mean there Doc?

[willing to fly]

There has been a great deal of concern expressed about the apparent lack of transparency regarding the establishment of the College of Professional Pilots of Canada, some of which has unfortunately arisen due to the construction of a web page, otherwise lacking in content. There was a requirement to register a domain, and proceed with full construction of the web page, which is underway at this time.

I am a member of the Board of Directors, acting as Director, Pacific Region {BC and Yukon}. Perhaps I could answer specific questions or concerns about our initiative, rather than fill pages of this forum with supporting documentation, which will soon {hopefully} be available on our web page.

Right off the top, I can deal with a common concern. The College is not a union, and will not be involved in any direct employment issues between commercial pilots and their employers.

The Board consists of pilots from 703/704/705 operations. Our "sponsoring" organizations represent nearly 9,000 commercial pilots in Canada, and have provided us with considerable resources to accomplish our goals.

The concept of a professional College has been discussed, in various organizations, for over thirty years. It was not initiated by Transport Canada.

Professional pilot Colleges exist in Spain and Mexico, by a similar form in France, and we understand the concept is being pursued in the United States.

The aim of the College is to include all commercial pilots {including rotary wing} in Canada. The authority to self regulate, the true requirement to be considered a "profession", is granted by legislative mandate, in our case by the Parliament of Canada. Dozens of professional Colleges exist in Canada, the familiar ones in the fields of medicine, law, engineering, accounting, education and dentistry, and many unfamiliar ones, such as the land surveyors {the oldest one in the country} and registered dietitians. The authority to self govern is granted to a vocation in the public interest, recognizing that this is best accomplished by those with the most experience and qualifications in very technical occupations, and where there is a need for the highest standards of professional conduct.

The initial Board of Directors was appointed, our task is to establish a framework for the College so that membership can be opened to all commercial pilots in Canada, who will then elect the standing Board.

Perhaps I will just start with this quick overview, and repeat my offer to answer any specific questions or concerns.

Colin Bechtel

There are far too many pages of paranoid ranting/skepticism here to read through quickly. I don't know that this College would solve all, or any, problems in the industry. That said, I used to work for a guy in another industry who would often say, "if you do the same things repeatedly, you will get the same results over and over again" (if we do nothing, we can't expect any change for better or worse.)
So I'll ask the question: if someone wanted to become involved and help guide this thing in the right direction, how would that person go about getting involved.

[Cat Driver]

So I'll ask the question: if someone wanted to become involved and help guide this thing in the right direction, how would that person go about getting involved.

Good question.

Another question would be what qualifications does one need to be involved in the setting up of the college?

[yycflyguy]

So I'll ask the question: if someone wanted to become involved and help guide this thing in the right direction, how would that person go about getting involved.

Good question.

Another question would be what qualifications does one need to be involved in the setting up of the college?

Probably be actively flying, with a valid medical and licence. Someone that actually would want to better the industry from the ground up. I would suggest someone that has worked in a variety of different positions and facets of aviation from 172's to Air Transport Category.

In my book, it should be all about safety and fair play.

Best post from Doc in weeks... especially on this topic.

[Prairie Chicken]

I read in some other threads about this college that some people feel that OC holders should be excluded from such an organization? I'm assuming this would include one pilot one airplane operators. Why do they not deserve a voice? Sure there may not be the same employer employee issues but there are other issues in the industry

Dust Devil, are you suggesting the College also represent OC holders? If so, I think that might be outside their mandate, at least at this point. Similarly, I doubt they intend to represent the AME group--not because that group don't need or deserve a voice--but because they are beyond the group's mandate. I believe the College should get established & operating to help professional pilots before setting out to save the world.

[Dust Devil]

I read in some other threads about this college that some people feel that OC holders should be excluded from such an organization? I'm assuming this would include one pilot one airplane operators. Why do they not deserve a voice? Sure there may not be the same employer employee issues but there are other issues in the industry

Dust Devil, are you suggesting the College also represent OC holders? If so, I think that might be outside their mandate, at least at this point. Similarly, I doubt they indend to represent the AME group--not because that group don't need or deserve a voice--but because they are beyond the group's mandate. I believe the College should get established & operating to help professional pilots before setting out to save the world.

I'm suggesting they represent pilots. Unless you are of the feeling that someone who holds an OC should have their license revoked.

[mattedfred]

why exactly are questions and comments being posed to anonymous posters rather than being emailed or addressed directly to colin?

i thought that most posters wanted to be able to speak directly with the college

perhaps not

[Dust Devil]

why exactly are questions and comments being posed to anonymous posters rather than being emailed or addressed directly to colin?

i thought that most posters wanted to be able to speak directly with the college

perhaps not

Maybe we have some of the same questions for the college and perhaps it's a good idea to have the questions asked and answered in public as opposed to hidden in the background thru private emails.

Any reason why you don't want the questions asked and answered in public? What is there to hide?

Maybe a Q and A should be published in the safety letter.

Not everyone is anonymous on this forum.

[mattedfred]

perhaps you misunderstood my post

i just think it is strange that some posters are still choosing to pose questions and comments to each other rather than address their posts directly to colin and wait for him to answer. i would have thought that this would have been the most effective way to get answers.

i assume that these same posters have chosen not to pm or email colin either

doc must be be choosing to pm or email colin directly as he has not addressed his original concerns to colin openly on this thread

i thought this thread would settle down completely after colin decided to post

perhaps not

[Doc]

why exactly are questions and comments being posed to anonymous posters rather than being emailed or addressed directly to colin?

i thought that most posters wanted to be able to speak directly with the college

perhaps not

Maybe we have some of the same questions for the college and perhaps it's a good idea to have the questions asked and answered in public as opposed to hidden in the background thru private emails.

Any reason why you don't want the questions asked and answered in public? What is there to hide?

Maybe a Q and A should be published in the safety letter.

Not everyone is anonymous on this forum.

Well put. Plus, it saves Colin from answering the same question many, many times.

[Dust Devil]

perhaps you misunderstood my post

i just think it is strange that some posters are still choosing to pose questions and comments to each other rather than address their posts directly to colin and wait for him to answer. i would have thought that this would have been the most effective way to get answers.

i assume that these same posters have chosen not to pm or email colin either

doc must be be choosing to pm or email colin directly as he has not addressed his original concerns to colin openly on this thread

i thought this thread would settle down completely after colin decided to post

perhaps not

I think it has totally mellowed out. For the most part all I see is questions asked since Colin posted.

[Doc]

doc must be be choosing to pm or email colin directly as he has not addressed his original concerns to colin openly on this thread

I asked Colin a couple of pretty simple, generic questions, that I consider "of interest" to the entire group, just a couple of posts back. Once these have been answered, I'll take it from there, should I deem it necessary.

[collegeofpilots]

Sorry for the pause, on the road for a few days, so I will be a little sporadic in responding.

On the issue of OC's, are current view is that all matters pertaining to air operators, and the enforcement of the applicable CARS would not be included in the self regulation mandate for the profession. However, with our broad mandate to speak on behalf of flight safety in the public interest, the College would certainly be prepared to advance any concerns that might be identified by members. This does not mean grabbing for headlines, but working with the system to bring positive change.

On the issue of licencing, this began when the government introduced legislation {bill C6} that would have permitted the outsourcing of the licencing function of TC. Never clearly defined, this was a cause for great concern. A certain industry trade group along with a well known training provider expressed great interest, and frankly had probably lobbied for the changes behind the scenes in Ottawa. We are of the view, I am sure shared by almost all commercial pilots, that having these types of groups in charge of issuing and defining our professional qualifications is a non-starter.

The industry is very concerned about the demographic trends regarding pilot recruitment. We had just started to see the effects of this trend a few years ago, when the downturn hit. At the time ATAC was warning it's members that they would have to address the wages and working conditions in the industry if they wanted to avoid a full blown crisis. Of course, one of the responses is to reduce the level of qualification to achieve a commercial pilot licence and getting control of this function from TC would be the opening needed.

The College is opposed to the licencing function being outsourced to industry. We are prepared to discuss with TC a proposal for the College to eventually assume this role if it is to be delegated. TC seemed to be moving very rapidly in this direction, but that appears to have slowed considerably, so I imagine that this is a medium to long term issue now. Just the same, we will be discussing this issue with TC going forward.

Doc:

I want to have some time to respond to your question - the $64,000 one. Standby for further.

Colin

[.......]

Once again, this kind of crap is why I have stayed away from AvCanada...time to fade away again I guess.

I understand your feelings JHR...

I have just had my account reactivated after almost a full year of hiatus from this site, only to find that it hasn't improved a single bit. In fact, except for the small group of serious posters, I see a majority of inflammatory posts from new users with 1 to 5 posts, aiming only at stirring the pot.

A real swell group, aviation pros, I tell ya...

Back on topic...

[Prairie Chicken]

I'm suggesting they represent pilots. Unless you are of the feeling that someone who holds an OC should have their license revoked.

Nah, DD, I don't think we need to revoke any licences held by OC holders. I guess I just misunderstood you.

Mattedfred, you're right. We will let Colin answer the questions since he is our designated expert now on this thread. Still, I'd hope a little banter back & forth is still ok.

Colin, welcome! I'm glad you're here to disspell some misunderstandings & answer some questions.

[Dust Devil]

I'm suggesting they represent pilots. Unless you are of the feeling that someone who holds an OC should have their license revoked.

Nah, DD, I don't think we need to revoke any licences held by OC holders. I guess I just misunderstood you.

No worries however I guess it could be argued that no person actually holds an OC as they are held by the Corporation which is a legal entity all of it's own.

[Dust Devil]

/bump

[Dust Devil]

I'm going to bump this again as there are questions that have yet to be answered. I think this thread deserves a sticky

[Doc]

I'm going to bump this again as there are questions that have yet to be answered. I think this thread deserves a sticky

Oh, I think when and if Colin has answers, he'll be able to find this thread without having it permanently mounted at the top of the pile.

[Dust Devil]

I'm going to bump this again as there are questions that have yet to be answered. I think this thread deserves a sticky

Oh, I think when and if Colin has answers, he'll be able to find this thread without having it permanently mounted at the top of the pile.

Ya I just don't want it to get ignored which seems to be happening. If the topic isn't front and center we will wake up one morning finding out the pilots at Air Canada are regulating 703.

I doubt it will get stickied anyway as having the information public does not serve some agendas.

[yycflyguy]

/bump

yycflyguy wrote:
Quote:
How do two unions representing Airlines provide grass roots representation of 703 operations or even 702 for that matter. We are operating in a totally different world.


I think you missed my point.

Colin posted that the College will be representative of 703,704 and 705 operators. I was simply pointing out that even unions/associations that claim to be "grassroots" are not always true to their word. By "grassroots" it is implied that the membership decides the direction and course for the entire group through some sort of democratic process. An elected council or governing body takes the voice of the membership and implements it. That is the idea. Doesn't always work due to personal agenda or politics. ACPA and ALPA (not sure about WJ pilot association) are providing start up capital to get it off the ground but this is an entirely unrelated body. The idea is that the college will benefit/protect all pilots.


Those who control the money control the body. Sorry if that doesn't fit the vision but it is the truth.

Having an association that only includes pilots in their membership will be very ineffective. It will further create divisions thru all segments of the industry. Good pilot judgment is the last line of defense. As I've said before if an association is needed to fix the problems the federal government has failed at it needs to be industry wide. From pilots to ame's to engine shops to dispatchers and everyone else in between.

Anyway we should be debating the college in the college thread so if you want to move over there I'd be glad to join you.

DD, I took the liberty of moving our conversation over here.

Just wanted to make a couple of comments. The money is supposed to be spread evenly. The college received some start up capital to get their legal footing but is not supposed to be a branch of ACPA, ALPA or WJ Pilot Association. Whether or not they can stay free from the lure of big money unions and associations remains to be seen.

From my experience, pilot rights and protection from abominable work conditions is a serious issue which can lead to safety issues like Colgan Air in KBUF. The model we have now is broken and needs to be fixed at the pilot level. I spent some time working in the US and the first hand accounts of companies wilfully violating FARs, lying to their pilots and cutting corners was a real eye-opener. Lack of a college, like what is being offered, will lead us down the same road.

You make a good point that maybe anyone with a licence should be protected. AMEs, pilots, dispatchers, controllers... if there is resistance in a College for pilots imagine the logistics of trying to represent other groups too. Rome wasn't built in a day.

[Dust Devil]

Basically for me when one of the directors comes out and publicly says that "We don't need a mandate from industry" that takes me off board. I will not get on board until that is resolved. That is a text book union tactic used all the time here in Saskatchewan. An association should be up front and open with it's intentions right from the get go and this one is not.

Now I don't know Colin or what he does. He could be very busy and hasn't had the time to revisit this thread to answer some of the outstanding questions that were asked. I hope in the near future he will return as this could have a large impact on all of our careers. It concerns me as well as an offer has been put forward for him to have preliminary information included in the safety letter but to date we have not heard if he will take them up on the offer.

There seems to be an attitude that we need "something". No one seems to know what that "something" is. So when someone shows up offering "something" everyone is jumping on board because hey we need "something".

Personally I want to know what "something" I'd be signing up for.

Obama did it when he offered "change". How did that work out? (sorry for the political jab. I don't actually want to turn this into a political thing)

[Cat Driver]

Now I don't know Colin or what he does. He could be very busy and hasn't had the time to revisit this thread to answer some of the outstanding questions that were asked. I hope in the near future he will return as this could have a large impact on all of our careers. It concerns me as well as an offer has been put forward for him to have preliminary information included in the safety letter but to date we have not heard if he will take them up on the offer.

If he is to busy to respond to concerns of the industry how can he find time to attend to their best interests?

[Dust Devil]

Now I don't know Colin or what he does. He could be very busy and hasn't had the time to revisit this thread to answer some of the outstanding questions that were asked. I hope in the near future he will return as this could have a large impact on all of our careers. It concerns me as well as an offer has been put forward for him to have preliminary information included in the safety letter but to date we have not heard if he will take them up on the offer.

If he is to busy to respond to concerns of the industry how can he find time to attend to their best interests?

I was wondering the exact thing as I was typing

[yycflyguy]

Now I don't know Colin or what he does. He could be very busy and hasn't had the time to revisit this thread to answer some of the outstanding questions that were asked. I hope in the near future he will return as this could have a large impact on all of our careers. It concerns me as well as an offer has been put forward for him to have preliminary information included in the safety letter but to date we have not heard if he will take them up on the offer.

If he is to busy to respond to concerns of the industry how can he find time to attend to their best interests?

I can't speak for Colin, but AvCanada certainly is not the best forum for gathering and releasing information. I suspect that he is busy with the creation of the college which is a massive undertaking. He tried to qualm fears and answer some of your questions in previous posts and I am hopeful he will continue to do so to get as many onboard as possible. I don't think you should confuse responding to an anonymous forum with a lack of desire to act in everyone's best interest. I think that is why the responses here have been intermittent. Patience young jedi warrior. Keep asking the questions, it shows that you are still open to the possibility of a collective College.

It was suggested that information be released alongside the aviation safety newsletter that TC puts out. I think that is a good way of getting their ideas out to as many pilots as possible.