College of Pilots?

[Localizer]

You guys are a riot .... You agree there needs to be change .. and in the same breath, agree not to change anything ...

Looking back, its seems some of your "pre-Collin" questions were answered in his post. I guess you either didn't like the answer or didn't understand it. Either way .. he'd be nuts to even try and answer any questions you two spin doctors would have.

Anyway ... back to the College and its "EVIL AGENDA" of industry domination!

Widow .. don't let these two hacks get you down .. keep up the good fight!

[Cat Driver]

Widow .. don't let these two hacks get you down .. keep up the good fight!

You of course are the epitome of what a real aviator is and with your vast knowledge you just know this college is going to be the answer for pilots so why ask what exactly it is working on huh?

[Dust Devil]

You guys are a riot .... You agree there needs to be change .. and in the same breath, agree not to change anything ...

Looking back, its seems some of your "pre-Collin" questions were answered in his post. I guess you either didn't like the answer or didn't understand it. Either way .. he'd be nuts to even try and answer any questions you two spin doctors would have.

Anyway ... back to the College and its "EVIL AGENDA" of industry domination!

Widow .. don't let these two hacks get you down .. keep up the good fight!

You are right some questions were answered and some questions were not.

Once again is that "change" word. Of course we need change but we need an open up front discussion of what that change will be. Not follow some Obamaesque buzz word.

I haven't seen any spin. I've seen guesses all over the place and that is because we are not getting the information. If you believe in something you should be able shout it out for all to hear and support your position not hide in the shadows.

[Doc]

I've asked which companies have given them a positive response, and what they intend to do about pilots being required to "buy" their jobs.
And Localizer, you have contributed.....what? "Keep up the good fight..."...to Widow? That's it? What exactly IS the "good fight"??

[Cat Driver]

What exactly IS the "good fight"??

A group that self polices the 703 704 sector of aviation to ensure.

(1) Pilots and engineers and others abide by the regulations already in place.

(2) Uses their collective power to force the government to enact protection for whistleblowers.

There are two issues to start with.

[Localizer]

You of course are the epitome of what a real aviator is and with your vast knowledge you just know this college is going to be the answer for pilots so why ask what exactly it is working on huh?

I don't know if its going to work or not Cat .. but its refreshing to see someone making efforts, in what they think is the right direction. Jumping down there throats and demanding explainations before any real framework is in place, is nothing short of ridiculous. When the ducks are finally in a row, and there website is complete, I'm sure there message will be out, plane as day, for everyone to critique, and then you'll be able to share your opinions and concerns. But to have 14 pages of "what if" ... sorta jumpin' the gun a little.

You are right some questions were answered and some questions were not.

Once again is that "change" word. Of course we need change but we need an open up front discussion of what that change will be. Not follow some Obamaesque buzz word.

I haven't seen any spin. I've seen guesses all over the place and that is because we are not getting the information. If you believe in something you should be able shout it out for all to hear and support your position not hide in the shadows.

I agree with you .. they should put it out there for everyone and I am confident they will, but give them the time they need. Like I said above, I'm sure they'll layout there entire platform for everyone to see.

[Localizer]

I've asked which companies have given them a positive response, and what they intend to do about pilots being required to "buy" their jobs.
And Localizer, you have contributed.....what? "Keep up the good fight..."...to Widow? That's it? What exactly IS the "good fight"??

Don't get me wrong .. I'm not trying to put anyone down for asking questions or wanting information. I wanna know more just like everyone else ... but I know i'll get it when they're ready. I just can't stand the cynical behavior or some. The "what are you hiding?" or "agenda" talk ... You present a package just as that, a package. If you let little bits of information out, people will develope there own conclusions to things, and thats not what should happen.

I haven't contributed directly to the College, but I try everyday to contribute to my profession, and fellow comrades whenever possible. I abide by the CARS and operate as best I can in the realm of safety for the sake of the folks behind me, and in the air around me. So I guess in a way .. yes .. I do contribute.

[Doc]

Don't get me wrong .. I'm not trying to put anyone down for asking questions or wanting information. I wanna know more just like everyone else ... but I know i'll get it when they're ready. I just can't stand the cynical behavior or some. The "what are you hiding?" or "agenda" talk ... You present a package just as that, a package. If you let little bits of information out, people will develope there own conclusions to things, and thats not what should happen.

I haven't contributed directly to the College, but I try everyday to contribute to my profession, and fellow comrades whenever possible. I abide by the CARS and operate as best I can in the realm of safety for the sake of the folks behind me, and in the air around me. So I guess in a way .. yes .. I do contribute.

"I'm not trying to put anyone down......" "Widow, don't let these two HACKS...."

"When they're ready....." Ready for what? Again, "cloak and dagger..."

"People will develop their (note the correct spelling of the word "their") own conclusions...." What would you expect them to do??

Your entire last paragraph??...like the rest of us totally ignore CARS?? And, operate with disregard to safety and the folks behind us? Good for you.

Any information at all would be a nice start. I don't recall being asked if I wanted someone to advocate for me from behind closed doors. I feel I've asked a couple of very relevant questions. You state "I haven't contributed directly to the college.." Do you know all the issues? Do you have any questions you'd like addressed? Or, are you willing, just to go along with whatever these folks decide? I'd make a lousy sheep. And, IMNSHO, sheep are what makes up this industry these days.

[Cat Driver]

I abide by the CARS and operate as best I can in the realm of safety for the sake of the folks behind me, and in the air around me. So I guess in a way .. yes .. I do contribute.

I would suggest most of us here also try and abide by whatever rules or regulations apply to the country they are flying in and are as concerned for safety as you are.

Now that I have pointed out you are not unique to aviation can you tell me what you meant by calling us "Hacks "

Widow .. don't let these two hacks get you down .. keep up the good fight

There are so many descriptions of what hack is I need to know what I am.

[Doc]

Cat....we're hacks, man. Get over it. Pilot trailer trash, hacks!

[Cat Driver]

Yeh I guess we must be......have you noticed we are playing the good cop bad cop game in these arguments?

I'm getting tired of playing good cop can I be the prick for a change?

[Dust Devil]

Are you guys hacks or super pilots? I'm so confused.

[jjj]

I just want to say Doc that I think you're awesome.

[Localizer]

"I'm not trying to put anyone down......" "Widow, don't let these two HACKS...."

"When they're ready....." Ready for what? Again, "cloak and dagger..."

"People will develop their (note the correct spelling of the word "their") own conclusions...." What would you expect them to do??

Your entire last paragraph??...like the rest of us totally ignore CARS?? And, operate with disregard to safety and the folks behind us? Good for you.

Any information at all would be a nice start. I don't recall being asked if I wanted someone to advocate for me from behind closed doors. I feel I've asked a couple of very relevant questions. You state "I haven't contributed directly to the college.." Do you know all the issues? Do you have any questions you'd like addressed? Or, are you willing, just to go along with whatever these folks decide? I'd make a lousy sheep. And, IMNSHO, sheep are what makes up this industry these days.

One, apparently we have different opinions on the term and meaning of "hacks", and two, why do you think i'm referring to your piloting skills??

Terms&Definitions:
Hack: 1. cut with rough or heavy blows 2. use a computer to gain unauthorized access to data in a system 3. informal or inability to manage, or cope 4. a writer or journalist producing dull, unoriginal work 5. a person who does dull routine work. 6. a horse for ordinary riding. 7. an inferior or worn-out horse. 8. a horse rented out for riding. 9. a taxicab or a cab driver

You are number 3 ... or 4 when reading your post.

Do you actually take the time and read peoples post before going off on a raid?? .. I have my own concerns and questions .. but i'll wait until they have all "their" cards on the table before I cast judgement. I don't think that's being a sheep .. but since you're the example of what we all should be then hell .. whatever you say Doc ..

Cloak and Daggar ... there ya go ... sums it up for me

[MrWings]

A collage of pilots:

[Niodatchi]

Well a college of pilots is definitely what we need in Canada. The college would dictate how much Navajo First officer's pay should be up to an A330 captain, all across the country. The doctors, have their college and so does most respected professions in this country! We deserve our own and our respect! How could you justify that a commercial pilot, right out of school, makes less money flying forest fire patroles than an employee on minimum wage? We endured enough!! Now is the time to stick together and make this happen! And my friends, most guys that I know who support this idea are senior captains at most major airlines in our country. Soo, when do we start??? Nio

[atpl53]

...The college would dictate how much Navajo First officer's pay should be up to an A330 captain, all across the country. ...Nio

Having married into a family of lawyers I can promise that the "College" concept has been discussed ad nausium on many occasions. The Law Society of Upper Canada does educate AND regulate who will or will not be accepted to the profession. They also police the behaviour and practices of its members. They DO NOT regulate fees. They do arbitrate if you feel that you have been billed an excessive amount by a particular member. The College of Physicians and Surgeons and the Dental College likewise.

.....From the Law Society of Upper Canada.....

The Oldest and Largest of Canadian Law Societies

The Law Society of Upper Canada, the largest of all Canadian law societies, was founded in 1797, almost 20 years before the earliest such association in any other province or territory. The creation of this self-governing body by an Act of the Legislative Assembly was an innovation in the English-speaking world and it became the model for law societies across Canada.

The reasons for the creation of the Law Society, as set out in the statute of 1797, were to provide the province with a "learned and honourable body, to assist their fellow subjects as occasion may require, and to support and maintain the constitution of the said Province."

In concrete terms, the mandate of the Law Society of Upper Canada was to see that persons seeking admission to the legal profession were competent, and to ensure lawyers followed proper procedures and behaved ethically. These goals are still its justification for existence. Of course, the scale of the organization has changed. From fifteen lawyer members, the Law Society has grown to become the largest bar in Canada with 38,000 members.

Since 1797, the Law Society has grown and evolved with the province and the country. It has maintained and expanded its responsibilities for the training and competence of lawyers and for overseeing their professional conduct and ethics. The contribution of the Law Society has not been limited to its actions as the governing body of the legal profession, nor has its influence been restricted to Ontario. Its members have been vital and active participants in the life of the country, many becoming national figures in politics or business, with others making their mark in such fields as the arts and sports.

The Law Society and legal education

Until 1957, the Law Society controlled entry to the Ontario legal profession through its exclusive jurisdiction over legal education. Osgoode Hall Law School, the second oldest common law school in Canada, was established by the Law Society in 1889. The school was at the centre of the debates over the principles of modern legal education in the 1950s. Regardless of controversy, the school was and remains a truly national law school. Its graduates have gone into practice in all other common law provinces. Indeed, Osgoode Hall Law School provided many of the founding members of the bar in the prairie provinces. Today, in its new home at York University, it stands as the largest faculty of common law in the country and boasts one of the most diverse student bodies in Canada.

Bold emphasis is mine

Each Law Firm sets their own fee schedule. There is a recommendation from the College however these fees do not need to be followed by the members. Therefore employers of pilots would, nor could, be bound by any fee schedule. The role of the college is to educate and monitor behaviour.

[flyinthebug]

Well a college of pilots is definitely what we need in Canada. The college would dictate how much Navajo First officer's pay should be up to an A330 captain, all across the country. The doctors, have their college and so does most respected professions in this country! We deserve our own and our respect! How could you justify that a commercial pilot, right out of school, makes less money flying forest fire patroles than an employee on minimum wage? We endured enough!! Now is the time to stick together and make this happen! And my friends, most guys that I know who support this idea are senior captains at most major airlines in our country. Soo, when do we start??? Nio

Yesterday, while sitting in my doctors office, I got quite the surprise. I was explaining my plane crash to my new Surgeon and I was truly shocked to hear how the medical profession uses the AVIATION INDUSTRY as a MODEL for their own standards! Im NOT making this up! This female surgeon sat for 10 mins and explained how Physicians use the aviation industry as a model of professionalism. Something that they strive for!..She even used her hands to describe how we are put on a pedestal (animated). To be honest, I left her to believe we are all that and more... BUT in reality it was hard to choke back the chuckles. This doctor sincerely would have been shocked if she knew how UNprofessional our industry and its members can be. She was the surprised one when I informed her that we had no college but that we were in the process of adopting one. All I can say is that I do wish these guys luck, but until we hear more then a few dribbles of their mission statement on avcanada, i`ll reserve judgement.


Fly safe all.

PS...Welcome to the board Colin. I have sent you a PM with a few attached questions and I look fwd to your reply.

[CD]

Expanding a bit on what atpl53 has noted about the Law Society of Upper Canada (which is the self-governing body for lawyers in Ontario), each province also has an equivalent society or "college". As do physicians, dental surgeons, etc. Then, there are also the national colleges for most of these professions as well. Is a similar structure going to be proposed here as well? Along the lines of a national college and sub-colleges, except instead of being divided geographically (by province) maybe they would be split by type of operation (702, 703, 704, 704, aeroplane (land/sea) , rotorcraft, etc.) to better focus the standards of education, competence and professional conduct for each group?

[Dust Devil]

...The college would dictate how much Navajo First officer's pay should be up to an A330 captain, all across the country. ...Nio

Having married into a family of lawyers I can promise that the "College" concept has been discussed ad nausium on many occasions. The Law Society of Upper Canada does educate AND regulate who will or will not be accepted to the profession. They also police the behaviour and practices of its members. They DO NOT regulate fees. They do arbitrate if you feel that you have been billed an excessive amount by a particular member. The College of Physicians and Surgeons and the Dental College likewise.

.....From the Law Society of Upper Canada.....

The Oldest and Largest of Canadian Law Societies

The Law Society of Upper Canada, the largest of all Canadian law societies, was founded in 1797, almost 20 years before the earliest such association in any other province or territory. The creation of this self-governing body by an Act of the Legislative Assembly was an innovation in the English-speaking world and it became the model for law societies across Canada.

The reasons for the creation of the Law Society, as set out in the statute of 1797, were to provide the province with a "learned and honourable body, to assist their fellow subjects as occasion may require, and to support and maintain the constitution of the said Province."

In concrete terms, the mandate of the Law Society of Upper Canada was to see that persons seeking admission to the legal profession were competent, and to ensure lawyers followed proper procedures and behaved ethically. These goals are still its justification for existence. Of course, the scale of the organization has changed. From fifteen lawyer members, the Law Society has grown to become the largest bar in Canada with 38,000 members.

Since 1797, the Law Society has grown and evolved with the province and the country. It has maintained and expanded its responsibilities for the training and competence of lawyers and for overseeing their professional conduct and ethics. The contribution of the Law Society has not been limited to its actions as the governing body of the legal profession, nor has its influence been restricted to Ontario. Its members have been vital and active participants in the life of the country, many becoming national figures in politics or business, with others making their mark in such fields as the arts and sports.

The Law Society and legal education

Until 1957, the Law Society controlled entry to the Ontario legal profession through its exclusive jurisdiction over legal education. Osgoode Hall Law School, the second oldest common law school in Canada, was established by the Law Society in 1889. The school was at the centre of the debates over the principles of modern legal education in the 1950s. Regardless of controversy, the school was and remains a truly national law school. Its graduates have gone into practice in all other common law provinces. Indeed, Osgoode Hall Law School provided many of the founding members of the bar in the prairie provinces. Today, in its new home at York University, it stands as the largest faculty of common law in the country and boasts one of the most diverse student bodies in Canada.

Bold emphasis is mine

Each Law Firm sets their own fee schedule. There is a recommendation from the College however these fees do not need to be followed by the members. Therefore employers of pilots would, nor could, be bound by any fee schedule. The role of the college is to educate and monitor behaviour.

Sounds like it could be a good way to get the gear up folks out of the industry.

[Doc]

Sounds like it could be a good way to get the gear up folks out of the industry.

Forget the odd pilot with the odd brain fart.

Stand up to companies like Wasaya! These guys have been treating their pilot group like crap for ever! They lay pilots off, and still they are held responsible for thousands of dollars OF THEIR MONEY PAID TO WASAYA, that Wasaya fully intends to keep, if the pilots find other jobs during their lay off. Come up with an answer to this! At least, come up with a plan to prevent this kind of thing from ever happening again. I don't think you can. This "screwing" of pilots is the biggest problem in the industry. That and "pushing". The problems aren't with the individual pilots. They're with the way the pilots are treated. Always have been. Probably always will be.

[willing to fly]

Let's not all jump the gun and get up in arms about the specifics of the fees, and whether the board of directors plans to wear black shoes with brown pants. Those are details that can be sorted out down the road. If you don't like the shoes, you'll have a voice to tell them to change. Hell, if you don't like the mandate is, get involved and change it. Till then, instead of focusing on how it will likely bring about the end days, maybe we should all be throwing suggestions for things that this new College should try to change. My understanding is that it is intended to be an organization that represents all of our collective best interests. We can't all sit back and complain that this industry sucks; why doesn't someone change it and continue to complain when someone steps up and tries.

[snoopy]

Thank you, but not all of us have simply complained, some of us have actually gone out into the trenches and tried to do something about industry conditions - have you?

The problem is, nobody from this College is "stepping up" or coming forward, or performing any other forthright type of action. Instead we're being told to wait and see, you'll love it, don't worry, it's good for you... Well, you know what? We don't buy it. To date, the college remains a top secret, exclusionary, feel good, good 'ol boys club, there to serve only the "almighty pilot"; and will remain so until someone indicates evidence to the contrary.

You can't "throw in" suggestions to a brick wall that refuses to be define its true purpose.

Cheers,
Kirsten B.

[Cat Driver]

Well, you know what? We don't buy it. To date, the college remains a top secret, exclusionary, feel good, good 'ol boys club, there to serve only the "almighty pilot"; and will remain so until someone indicates evidence to the contrary.

You can't "throw in" suggestions to a brick wall that refuses to be define its true purpose.

Snoopy no sense getting your knickers in a knot over something you have no control over or any direct input into.

Go back and read Colins first posts.

He clearly said it may take up to three years before this " college " is up and running.

It will be interesting to see what comes of the suggestion for the college to communicate with aviation through the Aviation Safety Letter.

[snoopy]

Maybe not Cat - I just get tired of these random posters that criticize those with valid concerns and claim they have some kind of warm and fuzzy inside knowledge and that we should just trust the College's motives are sincere. Kind of like that old saying "we're here to help you".... turns out they usually weren't here to help us at all and we were right to question their message and motives.

People who have ulterior motives usually don't want you to know what those ulterior motives are.

Cheers,
Kirsten B.