He clearly said it may take up to three years before this " college " is up and running.
Yes you have a point, however the above is the reality.
In three years many things can change and will, as relative outsiders people at our level have little control over what is going on because we are not important enough to count.
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The hardest thing about flying is knowing when to say no
After over a half a century of flying no one ever died because of my decision not to fly.
Sorry.........I will apologize in advance if I repeat something which has already been said in previous posts.
I get the sense that people are thinking that a College of Pilots would act like a union. THAT IS NOT WHAT ANY OF THE COLLEGES DO. They ensure training, on-going education and to a lesser degree, disciplinary actions on the membership. It should be remembered that WE are under Federal authority and as such any College would need an act of parliament to allow its existence. It would need to meet both provincial and federal oversight.
Sorry.........I will apologize in advance if I repeat something which has already been said in previous posts.
I get the sense that people are thinking that a College of Pilots would act like a union. THAT IS NOT WHAT ANY OF THE COLLEGES DO. They ensure training, on-going education and to a lesser degree, disciplinary actions on the membership. It should be remembered that WE are under Federal authority and as such any College would need an act of parliament to allow its existence. It would need to meet both provincial and federal oversight.
And therein lies a lot of the problem here.
To many do not understand and think that a college will improve their working conditions.
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The hardest thing about flying is knowing when to say no
After over a half a century of flying no one ever died because of my decision not to fly.
Dust Devil wrote:
Sounds like it could be a good way to get the gear up folks out of the industry.
Forget the odd pilot with the odd brain fart.
Stand up to companies like Wasaya! These guys have been treating their pilot group like crap for ever! ....
Standing up to companies IS NOT the job of the college. If you are a lawyer or physician you are GOVERNED by your respective college but EMPLOYED by an employer. The college does not govern your pay, your hours, your workload or working conditions. Its roll is to ensure that you are responsible in what you do, your education and your actions.
atpl53 wrote:Sorry.........I will apologize in advance if I repeat something which has already been said in previous posts.
I get the sense that people are thinking that a College of Pilots would act like a union. THAT IS NOT WHAT ANY OF THE COLLEGES DO. They ensure training, on-going education and to a lesser degree, disciplinary actions on the membership. It should be remembered that WE are under Federal authority and as such any College would need an act of parliament to allow its existence. It would need to meet both provincial and federal oversight.
If this is indeed the case and the college will ensure that negligent individuals are removed or disciplined and gets a mandate from industry I'm on board. I doubt the union dollars that are funding this will continue to flow however if this is the goal as no union in the country supports accountability of it's members.
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A parent's only as good as their dumbest kid. If one wins a Nobel Prize but the other gets robbed by a hooker, you failed
Dust Devil wrote:
Sounds like it could be a good way to get the gear up folks out of the industry.
Forget the odd pilot with the odd brain fart.
Stand up to companies like Wasaya! These guys have been treating their pilot group like crap for ever! ....
Standing up to companies IS NOT the job of the college. If you are a lawyer or physician you are GOVERNED by your respective college but EMPLOYED by an employer. The college does not govern your working conditions.
Interesting. I sure feel the need too be "governed". I guess the "down trodden" will just have to get used to it. Sorry all you folks working for companies who treat you like crap. There's a new sheriff in town. But, he's more interested in dealing out discipline to you, the pilot, after the aforementioned company pushes you out the door with insufficient fuel, or any host of problems. That's not what a college is for. It's not their job to improve working conditions. Sorry kids. Count me, out.
Jastapilot wrote:So, just curious... when Doc decides to opt out, how will he be disbarred? How does that work?
When Doc gets disbarred he's gonna move to YQR and we will operate a rouge bad ass fleet of Navajos painted all black with radar absorbing material recklessly flying all over North America with our landing gear where it needs to be. No one will be able to stop us unless the directors of the college get a raise in their allowance so they can come out of the basement to find out where we are.
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A parent's only as good as their dumbest kid. If one wins a Nobel Prize but the other gets robbed by a hooker, you failed
Based on the start of the discussion in the other college thread, sounds like you will have a lot of rogue AMEs available to help maintain your aircraft in peak condition...
Here is an idea of what a College of Professionals do. Check out the site for the Ontario College of Physicians where it talks about their mandate, vision and guiding principles. Lets not make the mistake of saying that a college of Professionals is the same as a union - They have different mandates.
There are usually 3 basic goals of a professional college:
1) Ensure that members are safe, competent, and accountable.
2) Build public trust, respect and integrity of the profession.
3) Influence policy and regulatory decisions.
Question, if the college were to set a minimum wage that a pilot could accept for a certain position under the code of ethics or guiding principals, could it not change things? If you were to make it against the rules, and face suspension for doing so, then by default the employers would have to pay better or not have any pilots to do the job. You don't need to regulate the companies, essentially they will pay or shut the doors. Likewise make it against the rules for any of the negative issues we have and the the pratices with have to cease. Maybe I think too simplistically, but I think that would work.
luckyboy wrote:
The concept of a minimum wage is very hard to implement in the commercial pilot world, particularly at the entry level, but almost in all aspects.
How about this. You punch in when you enter the hangar where your car is. You punch out when you get back to your car and get paid for every second in between. None of the BS, "you're salaried so we don't care how badly we mismanage your time here". If you're sleeping in a hotel so you can get your rest away from home and be good for another duty day, that is company time. If you're away from home and not required for duty for 48hrs+ then I'd say that isn't company time.
A great litmus test would be "if I'm not at home and can't have a beer, I must be working and getting paid."
I don't agree - away from home = work, whether you fly, stand-by or are sitting on the beach. If they don't need you while you are away from base, tough darts. That goes for per diem too - away from home = per diem, no ifs ands or buts. The per diem is charged back to the client and is tax deductible to the operator so its tax free to you, too.
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"What's it doing now?"
"Fly low and slow and throttle back in the turns."
Beacon wrote:There are usually 3 basic goals of a professional college:
1) Ensure that members are safe, competent, and accountable.
2) Build public trust, respect and integrity of the profession.
3) Influence policy and regulatory decisions.
From the information I heard, the College may also be in charge of licensing. This would start with ATPLs and possibly work it's way down.
Perhaps a pilot would have to apply to the College in order to get his/her ATPL signed off. If we could restrict the number of ATPLs based on the need of the industry, then we would be potentially able to improve working conditions indirectly.
Johnny, that is a problem but what does that have to do with a college? It's not a union, it's a group that will set guidelines or pricipals to be followed if you want to be part of the group. Pilots not rampies or AMEs or Flight attendants.
Someone mentioned before, what would a union have to gain by bankrolling this college venture, simple math. If you make changes at the bottom it has to transfer up. Eg; if the minimum wage you could accept for a entry level position was, say 30,000 then the starting wage at an airline say Jazz would have to be more than 36,000. Therefore the union dues, based on a percentage of your wage, would increase.
I believe it's being talked about in the U.S congress about making minimum wage for a regional airline 40,000.00. Not sure where I heard that, maybe I dreamt it
Perhaps a pilot would have to apply to the College in order to get his/her ATPL signed off. If we could restrict the number of ATPLs based on the need of the industry, then we would be potentially able to improve working conditions indirectly.
If that is the case then it would be wise for anyone who hopes to get their ATPL in the next few years to be opposed to the creation of this College of Pilots.
Quote:
Perhaps a pilot would have to apply to the College in order to get his/her ATPL signed off. If we could restrict the number of ATPLs based on the need of the industry, then we would be potentially able to improve working conditions indirectly.
If that is the case then it would be wise for anyone who hopes to get their ATPL in the next few years to be opposed to the creation of this College of Pilots.
Why? How would getting a license from a Professional College be much different from getting it from TC? Future ATPL holders have absolutely NOTHING to be worried about.
If you want to be concerned about something; have you ever though what licensing standards would be like if ATAC (The aviation companies of Canada) took over licensing from TC? It may not be far off if The College doesn't step in.
This is an opportunity for pilots to step up and have a say in the things that we are experts in - flying airplanes safely. If you don't want to participate in the decision making process, you cant complain when your not happy with the decision.....
MapleFlag wrote:What if the college was only responsible for the "profesional standards" of pilots. The regulator issues the licence, the college grants "permission to practice". The college would define the minimum standards for "entry to practice" and required annual training to maintain "professional certification" to the standards of the QA guidelines. Under review "professional practice" could be revoked but not the licence. The follow on to this would be that to hold a 700 series operating certificate additional legislation mandates that only pilots holding both the appropriate commercial license and "permission to practice" may be employed. This would require the combined efforts of the college and ATAC. It would leave pilots in control of their profession and with a means to have input on the re-shaping of the industry through, their college. The private operators would remain under the CBAA, with their established QA guidelines and hiring practices thereby leaving an avenue for "non-college" pilots to pursue.
Is this all bit to "blue sky and sunshine" or a reasonable concept ?
I think the concept could work however you need the right people running the show. Currently we have people operating in the shadows. They poked their heads out briefly but when they didn't like the questions being asked they quickly retreated.
It doesn't matter the issue. From Politics to Global Warming to the need for this College. If you truly believe in something you should be able to stand up and debate your case proudly.
We need to be careful or we could end up with a giant Contrail. How many FO's have been shafted because Contrail deemed them unworthy of an aircraft because of the seat they were sitting in forcing operators to worry more about PIC time rather than time in type.
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A parent's only as good as their dumbest kid. If one wins a Nobel Prize but the other gets robbed by a hooker, you failed
MapleFlag wrote:I am going to make to maybe very nieve assumptions. First that Contrail, who ever they maybe are a "for profit" venture. Second, I am for now going with the hope that those seeking to establish and define the "college" are not in it for commercial or personal gain.
More blue sky, maybe!!!
How does Contrail profit from holding pilots back? I don't think profit is the reason these policies are put in place.
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A parent's only as good as their dumbest kid. If one wins a Nobel Prize but the other gets robbed by a hooker, you failed
