College of Pilots?

[freakonature]

In 2000 there were 24000 CPL and ATPL in Canada. 3500 of those were helicopter. 5500 belonged to a labour association. Since then an average of 2500 new CPL's per yr have been added to those numbers.

[mattedfred]

have any of the detractors contacted the college with their concerns yet?

any response?

would some of you have preferred that the initial operating cost of establishing this college be provided by the vast resources of the 703/704 pilot?

we are truly our own worst enemy as we have a deep seeded distrust of ourselves

[Cat Driver]

we are truly our own worst enemy as we have a deep seeded distrust of ourselves

Since when does asking questions mean we have a deep distrust of ourselves?

Are we to understand that by trusting others who are complete strangers it will instill self trust?

[flyinthebug]

In 2000 there were 24000 CPL and ATPL in Canada. 3500 of those were helicopter. 5500 belonged to a labour association. Since then an average of 2500 new CPL's per yr have been added to those numbers.

Thanks for the clarity. I believe my 703/704 #s were accurate as far as # of working pilots in that sector of aviation.

[yycflyguy]

What about retirements, loss of medical and death over your 10 year period?

[mattedfred]

April 2008 : The founding members of the College of Professional Pilots of Canada.

From left to right :

Colin Bechtel (Air Canada), Peter Thompson (Air Canada), David Coles (Air Canada), Fred Ambs (Skyservice Airlines), Steve Weiher (Westjet), Nick di Cintio (Air Canada Jazz), Nigel Edwards (Skyservice Airlines), Greg Holbrook (Canadian Federal Pilots' Association / Transport Canada)
In this photo: Colin Bechtel, Peter Thompson, David Coles, Fred Ambs, Steve Weiher, Nick di Cintio, Nigel Edwards, Greg Holbrook

Wow quite a broad representation of the industry there.

the picture depicts the founding members and not the BOD or Executive

[Cat Driver]

Someone probably already answered this question but I will ask it again.

In that setting up this college obviously costs money who is funding it in the start up stages?

[freakonature]

yycflyguy, You would be safe using 7.32 pilots per year.

[Lost Lake]

My 2 cents worth. I would love to see some union, organization, association, who would represent the 703/704 industry. It is the stepping stone to the 705's. However, it is such a convoluted, fractioned, estranged, confusing industry, with every operator needing different skill sets. Combined with a hiring pool that is turning into a lake, I believe the odds are slim to none of ever organizing a union, yes that's the word we need to use a UNION, a joining of ideals, etc.

If we can have heads that prevail, who can represent the real needs of the pilot and while understanding the realities of the owner, then it could work. One of the first steps is a need to control the influx of new pilots. Of course, this wil never happen because colleges can't make money without students. If the employment pool (lake) is too large, there will be leaks, even floods.

I wish everyone good luck. Believe me, if you want my help, and I think it will work, I'll be there!

Sorry to be a doubting Thomas. Economics will always prevail in this society.

[Prairie Chicken]

To those who feel the College founders don't know what's happening in the trenches, like some others, I'm sure they didn't get where they are now without any pain. I'd suggest they are at a point in their careers where they have the time, & perhaps money, to do something about the problem whereas those in the trenches are fighting 24/7 for their very survival. Perhaps they are also at a point where they would like to give back to the industry. And as MapleFlag suggests, they are in a position to act without too much fear of retribution from the employer.

Before passing judgement, let's wait to hear all the details. Even then, you can't please all the people all the time.

[GTFA]

As for professionalism...It`s all in how we as an industry are perceived. As I mentioned in another thread, my Surgeon recently sat with me and told me how they use aviation as a model of professionalism for their industry. I had to hold back my chuckles!! That said, she was quite sincere in what she said and I have to admit that I took great pride in her perception of our industry. If she only knew!

The medical profession is taking a serious look at aviation safety principles in order to improve their performance as we do our own. The problem is with the practitioners, not the principles. Sound familiar? The medical industry is still learning to embrace the admission that there will be errors. The next step is to uncover them. Again, same in both industries. We have much to learn from them in organizing a professional association and they have much to learn from us in the threat and error management philosophy. If we wish to be respected as professionals we need to align ourselves with other professionals.

From the British Medical Journal (Mar 2000)

On error management: lessons from aviation
Robert L Helmreich

Pilots and doctors operate in complex environments where teams interact with technology. In both domains, risk varies from low to high with threats com­ing from a variety of sources in the environment. Safety is paramount for both professions, but cost issues can influence the commitment of resources for safety efforts. Aircraft accidents are infrequent, highly visible, and often involve massive loss of life, resulting in exhaustive investigation into causal factors, public reports, and remedial action. Research by the National Aeronautics and Space Administration into aviation accidents has found that 70% involve human error.

In contrast, medical adverse events happen to individual patients and seldom receive national publicity. More importantly, there is no standardised method of investigation, documentation, and dissemination. The US Institute of Medicine estimates that each year between 44 000 and 98 000 people die as a result of medical errors. When error is suspected, litigation and new regulations are threats in both medicine and aviation.

Error results from physiological and psychological limitations of humans. Causes of error include fatigue, workload, and fear as well as cognitive overload, poor interpersonal communications, imperfect information processing, and flawed decision making. In both avia­tion and medicine, teamwork is required, and team error can be defined as action or inaction leading to
deviation from team or organisational intentions. Aviation increasingly uses error management strategies to improve safety. Error management is based on understanding the nature and extent of error, changing the conditions that induce error, determin­ing behaviours that prevent or mitigate error, and training personnel in their use. Though recognising that operating theatres are not cockpits, I describe approaches that may help improve patient safety.

website extra: A full explanation of the threat and error management model, with a case study, appears on the BMJ's website: http://www.bmj.com

Don't sell yourself short.
GTFA

[GTFA]

MapleFlag, these college "directors" are all airline pilots from the segment of the industry that least needs help. They're all employed flying jets for unionized companies. How would that be of ANY use to the average pilot getting it up the Kazoo from companies like Wasaya?? I'll tell you.....SQUAT!

Dear Doc, and those who share this impression,

You obviously don't "get it". This idea of professional status and management of pilots was hatched before most of the "founding Members" pictured. The concept is based on principles of practice and recognition of responsibility. I sincerely believe that no-one who has put ANY amount of effort into this has any personal agenda that does not benefit our industry as a whole...705 included. If a standard of professionalism is not established and recognized by operators, the travelling public and ourselves we will continue in the embarrassing "race to the bottom" for the sake of following our passion to operate aircraft. Lawyers have passion, doctors have passion, nurses have passion as do teachers... Why are we the bottom feeders amongst these highly regarded and remunerated "professionals"?

Your mind is like a parachute.. it doesn't work unless it's OPEN.

GTFA

[Widow]

The subject of an Ombudsman comes up with some regularity. Just do a search and see what's been said ... Search: ombudsman. As snaproll likes to point out, it has even been recommended in the past as the result of Public Inquiry.

[Widow]

Not at all Your post serves as a reminder ... the need for an OMB becomes more and more essential as SMS takes hold.

[GTFA]

Do Doctors have an ombudsman, lawyers, dentists etc?

I think that considering the use of an ombudsman or anything short of full professional status and the powers that go with it undermines the intent of this movement. Go for full professional status and start setting the rates and standard. Otherwise just form a union and get on with that.

Don't sell yourself short.
GTFA

[Widow]

Actually, yes ... provincial ombudspersons DO have authority to investigate Institutions as defined in the College and Institute Acts. So while the College/Institute has the authority to investigate the doctor/lawyer/etc., the ombudsperson can investigate complaints about the College/Institute's investigation.

I don't think espousing the use of an Ombudsperson undermines the intent of the College at all. Rather, it would help provide for ALL persons in the industry, not just pilots.

[yycflyguy]

yycflyguy, You would be safe using 7.32 pilots per year.

No me understand. 7.32 pilots per year for retirements, deaths, loss of medical etc. equals 73 pilots over 10 years. At AC alone, that is only 6 or 7 months of retirements. What stat are you quoting?

[flyinthebug]

delete (would have been a hi-jack) so delete!

[freakonature]

yycflyguy, The Human Resource Study of Commercial Pilots in Canada.

[CD]

Speaking of CAMC...

ASL 4/2009 - The CAMC Leads Update of the Human Resource Study of Commercial Pilots in Canada

The Update of the Human Resource Study of the Commercial Pilot in Canada will provide the researched data that will then be used to develop a comprehensive picture of Canada’s commercial pilot occupation, describing both current conditions and likely developments in the future at the 5, 10, and 15 year marks. This research will also provide the foundation for the development of professional pilot occupational standards.

The aviation transportation industry includes general aviation, commercial air carriers, rotorcraft operations; suppliers and maintenance repair and overhaul companies. Flight crews for the different operations require a diverse set of experience, skills and knowledge. The understanding of the human resources challenges to this sector is important to the aviation transportation community. Canada also has an important flight training industry that needs to understand the future commercial pilot knowledge and skill requirements in order to produce the properly trained personnel.

Update of the Human Resource Study of the Commercial Pilot in Canada

[Triple7]

in laymans terms (cause im too lazy to read through all the rambling and rants) could someone tell me the gist of what this college of pilots is please.

thanks.

[mattedfred]

perhaps the college should take a break from their due diligence and try this approach

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0YOh-rpv ... re=related

[Dust Devil]

perhaps the college should take a break from their due diligence and try this approach

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0YOh-rpv ... re=related

Unfortunately when they took the stage they turned and ran just as quick. The rep from Ornge made a better spokesperson. Agree with Ornge or not at least they had the courage to come here and address the questions.

I'm not as far off from supporting this college as some people think. However their unwillingness to stand and be questioned is what gives me the greatest concern. I think trust should be something built over time and with a group like this trust is of utmost importance as it affects all of our livelihoods. The more silent they are the less trusting I get. I don't know about others. I think things are so bad for some people they are just looking for something to cling to for hope and these guys seem to be exploiting that.

[george sugar]

Some observations:

1. To have an adversarial approach is to guarantee that you will find an adversary. Not everyone that disagrees is an adversary, nor is it wise or productive to take disagreement as a personal attack.

2. An enterprise that seeks to represent everyone usually ends up representing no one well. An enterprise that begins with too many unclearly stated goals usually does not serve any goal well. These two taken together usually end up making things worse.

3. The reason that someone is at your door usually has more to do with their needs than yours.

4. Line pilots will not in general be compensated or employed in the same way as doctors or lawyers in Canada as long as the seniority system exists in aviation, or conversely it is absent from the legal and medical professions. Doctors and lawyers have almost complete mobility to offer their services to any interested client. They negotiate positions, terms and pay according to demonstrated ability and experience, and are most certainly not always forced into the most junior lowest-paying position when joining a firm. When they move from firm to firm they tend to take their clients with them, and usually retain at least their previous pay and standing; they do not give their highest paying clients to less experienced practitioners at the new firm and take on clerking/interning duties at the commensurate lower pay rate. Further, many doctors and lawyers are individual incorporated entities responsible for getting their own clients and paying their own expenses and costs; they are also usually paid directly by the clients or a government agency, rather than being employees of a profit-seeking company. Pilots in Canada are employed according to a system that bears little resemblance to this method. One system is not necessarily better than the other, but they are not fundamentally compatible.

5. Within, or beyond, existing employment standards laws, a disinterested third-party cannot tell an employer who to hire or fire, and how much to pay them. Restricting an otherwise qualified person’s ability to obtain or maintain employment of their choice, because they do not meet some arbitrary standard not based in regulation, opens the door to legal action and Charter challenges.

6. I am always wary when someone seeks to limit the freedom to negotiate my own terms with the purported aim of protecting my best interests when: they haven’t asked me what my best interests are, the initial framework is formulated without the broad participation of the people it professes to serve, the rules and scope are settled by the time I learn of them, and I am compelled to join without having an initial vote on the concept. Some form of representation may be appropriate to a situation, but one should be directly involved in that decision.

I offer these points purely as a licenced flight crew member employed in this country; please do not assume that I have one position or another on the matter. However, as it is currently presented, such an organization seems to be strictly a balance-of-power exercise that would likely only replace one unaccountable task-master with another.

[mattedfred]

Dust Devil,

perhaps you haven't contacted the college via their facebook page or aren't willing to wait for them to add a contact link to their website so you can ask them any question you may have?

http://www.facebook.com/?ref=home#!/gro ... 8544762222

http://www.collegeofpilots.ca/index.html

maybe you could even volunteer your time and resources to help them get this thing off the ground?