Recovery from inadvertent inverted flight?

[Big Pistons Forever]

Strega, the original poster did not ask his question re Split S vs Roll out, because he woke up yesterday morning and sudden had this burning notion to explore the concept, his post is a continuation of what I had written in another posts namely.

No spin stories and I can only think of one time when a student well and truly scared me. It was a ME rating in a Pa 34 Seneca and we were doing the engine failure in the overshoot exercise. So we climb to 4000 feet AGL and set up in the final approach configuration , 95 mph , gear down, full flap. I call go around and as soon as the student pushes up both throttles I pull one back to idle. For reasons that remain a mystery the student immediately pulled the control wheel full back. Instead of immediately pushing the wheel forward I tried to talk to the student.

This was a big mistake as the airspeed went away in a hurry and the aircraft stalled. It immediately snap rolled. When I took over we were inverted and the nose was dropping. I yanked the running engine closed, slapped the flaps up ( love those manual flaps ) and selected gear up and then pulled through in a split S recovering at 2000 feet AGL.

Strega responded with

and then pulled through in a split S recovering at 2000 feet AGL

This is why aerobatic training is critical.. recovering from inverted flight via a split s is the WORST method of recovery.

Perhaps I am a bit touchy but I took this and his other statements as point blank declaration that i had done the wrong thing.

I did not think that at the time and I do not think it now.

Some relevant points.

1) I did not make the posts to advocate the Split S as the ideal means to recover from an upset or even with the intention of discussing upset maneuvers, I posted this as an example of how a student scared me in response to a question from another instructor. The lessons I was trying to pass on involved the poor decesions I made which allowed this event to happen in the first place.

2) Factors that lead me to recover by pulling through in this particular and pretty unusual situation

When I took control the aircraft was inverted, stalled , and with a nose low attitude ( more than 45 deg) with the gear and flaps down and one engine running at full power and the other at idle. I stopped the yaw with rudder while reducing power on the full power engine, and slapping the flaps up and selecting gear up. At that moment the aircraft was IMO very close to entering an inverted spin. However I had stopped the yaw and because the aircraft had a nose low attitude of more than 45 degrees and was now accelerating, I elected to gently pull through. I estimate I pulled about 2.5 Gees and recovered with the airspeed about 10 kts below redline at 2000 feet AGL.


3) What would have happened if I had rolled and then pulled. Well I think probably close to the same outcome. The Seneca 1 has very poor ailerons, which resulted in probably the lowest rate of roll of any GA aircraft I have ever flown and which is why they were redesigned in the Seneca 2 and subsequent models. By the time I had finished the roll the aircraft would have been going pretty fast and so I don't think I would have ended up pulling less Gee's although I would have probably lost a bit less attitude. My gut reaction is due to the very unresponsive controls this manoever would inevitably resulted in a rolling pull out or a significant negative Gee loading, neither of which the airplane is designed for.

All and all I let the student put the aircraft in a very bad place and the upset happened incredible quickly.

So back to the original argument. As a general statement, then yes I agree in most situations in the event of an upset it is better to roll to the nearest horizon, rather than pull through.

However I completely reject the argument that in all circumstances that is the case. If this offends Strega, well I am OK with that.

However I want to emphasize the aerobatic training that undoubtedly saved my life that day should never have had to be used in what was supposed to be a routine Multi Engine rating training flight. The fact that I had to reach deep into my bag of tricks to save the day is a very poor reflection on the decisions and actions I made that day that allowed this situation to develop in the first place.

[iflyforpie]

I agree with both Aux Bat's and BPF's rationale... and it lines up with my post in the previous topic.

Strega is just trolling again as usual.... doing his best to entrap other pilots with poor wording or overly simplified situations while never offering up any of his own experiences or mistakes.

[Strega]

MR pie,

Thank your for once again expressing your feelings about my posting nature.

Many years ago, I did make the poor decision to splt s recover from an inverted steep turn that I was doing.. nearly cost me my life.

My point I want to make to the newbie pilots, (not to mention instructors- see the vid I posted) is that recovery from inverted flight via a split S is EXTREMELY DANGEROUS!!!!!! ( BPF I can use bold as well)


BPF as you have clearly mentioned you are a class 1 aerobatic instructor, you should know this...

[Big Pistons Forever]

Strega

I am starting to find your posts Extremely Annoying !!!!!

[Chuck Ellsworth]

This is an excellent thread to learn from, and I am a bit puzzled trying to sort out the time frame in this episode.

As I read the story the airplane went out of control during a demo of a single engine go around.

It snap rolled to the inverted attitude, at which point recovery was initiated by.

Reducing power on the engine producing power.

Selected flaps up.

Selected gear up.

Recovered to controlled level flight by a Split S maneuver.

Then there is this comment.

3) The landing gear will retract really fast if you are inverted when you select gear up

How long was the airplane inverted before the Split S was initiated?

[Shiny Side Up]

How long was the airplane inverted before the Split S was initiated?

Probably like a nanosecond, if one was to film it, but probably seemed longer. I've had it remarked before that I can move a lot faster than I appear when a student does something unforseen, uncommanded and unconventional. I would suspect most good instructors, in spite of their sloth-like, glazed-eyed, troglodyte appearances, can do the same.

[Chuck Ellsworth]

Probably like a nanosecond, if one was to film it,

O.K, so that confirms the gear retracts real fast when you are inverted.

Thanks Shiny.

[Strega]

Strega

I am starting to find your posts Extremely Annoying !!!!!

If by trying to be sure new pilots (and for that matter pilots who have been flying for sometime without upset or aerobatic training) refrain from their instinct to "pull" when inverted annoys you...Im sorry you feel this way.

[jodirueger]

Aerobatic Instructor here:
We teach students to "roll out never pull out". You'll lose less altitude that way and avoid risk of going beyond Vne or pulling full deflection beyond Va over-stressing the plane by exceeding G limits when pulling at high speeds.

[Big Pistons Forever]

most good instructors, in spite of their sloth-like, glazed-eyed, troglodyte appearances

Nonsense we all look like this

[Big Pistons Forever]

Strega

I am starting to find your posts Extremely Annoying !!!!!

If by trying to be sure new pilots (and for that matter pilots who have been flying for sometime without upset or aerobatic training) refrain from their instinct to "pull" when inverted annoys you.

Find me one example where I said that new pilots, or any pilot for that matter should not "refrain from their instinct to "pull" when inverted."

I never said that and never will. What I did say was what I did during one specific upset that I experienced. The specific circumstances of that situation led me to make a split second decision to pull through rather than roll out and it worked.

If you are going to continue to mindlessly extrapolate that to "BPF said should pull through when you are inverted" then there appears to be nothing more for me to say.

What saved me and my student that day is fundamentally not a pull through vs roll argument, it is the fact that if I had not had aerobatic training I almost certainly would have died. That aerobatic training allowed me to stay orientated and to provide the initial instinctive control outputs which stopped the incipient inverted spin and to continue to control the aircraft during the recovery in a way that ensured it did not again depart controlled flight in a secondary stall or exceed it speed or Gee limits.

[PilotDAR]

If it is pitching hard be careful not to pull to hard or the flight controls may stall. They are designed to stall outside of coffin corner ,to protect the airplane from self destruction from excessive g loading.

My gosh, ah no...

Some basic facts:

A stabilator flight control may stall - at very slow airspeed. Otherwise stalling flight controls won't be a factor in dive recoveries, because before a flight control could stall in a dive, the plane would have disintegrated from being overstressed.

I'll defer to a jet pilot, which I am not, but I believe that "coffin corner" is a term associated with high altitude cruise flight, not dive recovery. "Coffin corner" is a 1.0 G flight condition.

An airfoil/aerodynamic surface stalls at high AoA's, which are generally associated with slower speeds. As airspeed increases, the amount of flight control displacement needed to affect an attitude change reduces.

Excessive G loading can only occur at fast speeds. Flight controls become much more effective at fast speeds - which is why at speed, overstressing the plane is a risk, stalling the elevator is not.

Let's review some aircraft design fundamentals:

Va maneuvering speed is established for pitch attitude change (not yaw or roll). Slower than Va, gentle application of full nose up pitch control will result in the wing stalling before the G structural limit is reached. This protects the aircraft from overstressing, if the pilot flies with this speed as a self imposed limit. This speed has less to do with the effectiveness of the tail/flight controls, than it does with the ability of the wing to develop lift with speed. None the less, stalling a GA plane at Va is scary stuff!

So,

be careful not to pull to hard

, if you can determine what "too hard" would be without a G meter. Va is a reference, but that's still a risky approach. On the other hand, while referring to an appropriate means of determining G, if you're diving, pull hard enough! If you don't, you're not coming out of the dive, and speed will build up to a very unsafe condition. Once you've allowed the plane to exceed Va in a dive, you're only going to slow by pulling pitch - a lot!

Therefore, the best thing to do, is to assure that you do not allow a plane to be in a dive, in which Va is exceeded early in the dive. If you re in a dive, and accelerating, pull enough G within limits to prevent accelerating above Va if you can. If you have ended up up side down from anything like cruise flight speeds, and you are maintaining any positive G, you're building up speed fast, you have nanoseconds to make it better before it gets worst because the plane sped up too quickly to prevent.

This is why I like the roll out approach, as entering a roll from inverted does not put the plane in an attitude which will promote acceleration as fast as a dive does, and, you have a better chance of safely rolling out above Va. Erring with application of aileron and rudder in GA aircraft above Va is not as dangerous as getting the pitch control application wrong.

But all of this is on the edge of dangerous in any certified aircraft, do not take this casually, and don't experiment 'cause you read about it here - get competent instruction!

[Big Pistons Forever]

Aerobatic Instructor here:
We teach students to "roll out never pull out". You'll lose less altitude that way and avoid risk of going beyond Vne or pulling full deflection beyond Va over-stressing the plane by exceeding G limits when pulling at high speeds.

So you as an aerobatic instructor are saying you can envision no circumstances ever occurring where "you", not a low time student, you the instructor might elect to pull through. The only possible reaction you will ever apply is to roll upright under every possible circumstance ?

[Chuck Ellsworth]

I am hard pressed to think of better entertainment than this thread.

Not to mention that it has some real serious thought provoking scenarios for all pilots to examine ....really examine and after examining these scenarios decide how they will recover from the situation being discussed here.

[Strega]

What saved me and my student that day is fundamentally not a pull through vs roll argument, it is the fact that if I had not had aerobatic training I almost certainly would have died.

About 95% of pilots that I fly with, that have not any aerobatic training, would have done exactly as you had- Pullback when inverted.So I would say your actions would be replicated by most- sometimes with a very somber outcome.

For some reason, when you are inverted, it is your instinct to pull back (or split s) to recover.. not sure why, but is the case.

[Strega]

Again I ask, when and why is it better to split s recover, than roll? How can a split s recovery result in less altitude loss than a roll and pull upright recovery?

Thanks

[PilotDAR]

These are un nerving instrument readings to see. They might be seen if you pull through from inverted at cruise flight speeds. I defer to BPF, who made a competent decision for the circumstances (which I think included very low airspeed), but BPF did this on the basis of really good aerobatic and upset training experience.



The G recorded, and shown by the recording pointer, was achieved at Vne, in a planned dive recovery. I pulled to prevent exceeding Vne.



You don't want to see this...



Or this....

[Big Pistons Forever]

I am pretty bored right now so what the hey I will keep feeding the troll. The alternative is doing some paperwork that I am really not looking forward to.

Strega

Pulling through as a way to recover from the incident in question, was not "my instinct" it was a choice. Of course to acknowledge that you would have to admit I might have actually known what I was doing when sitting in an inverted, dirty, stalled, full asymmetric thrust, about to spin Seneca 1. We both know that is never going to happen

Your comment about it is an instinctive reaction for 95% of non aerobatic pilots to pull if they experience an upset that leaves them invert is not completely true. I think the number is probably 100%. However telling them not to pull is basically pointless as they will not remember. IMO the only way for pilots to develop the appropriate skills to survive upset incidents is for them to experience them first hand in a controlled training environment. An intregal part of that training will be recovery from all attitudes and specific instruction and demonstration of the potential Dangers of pulling through. That is why I recommend all my students take a basic aerobatics course. Not only is it a lot of fun but it will also make them a better pilot and may save their life.

[Strega]

BPF... This was my point all along...

I have managed to fly 100% safely since day one (over 20 years), with no accidents or incidents. Can you say the same thing?

I do (hard to believe) know what I'm talking about sometimes. (Or maybe Im just really lucky

[Big Pistons Forever]

BPF... This was my point all along...

Excellent we now agree I sucessfully recovered from a upset by using my aerobatic training. I knew you would come around if I argued long enough

[Strega]

My point was people need aerobatic and or upset training.

I have managed to fly 100% safely since day one (over 20 years), with no accidents or incidents. Can you say the same thing?

[Chuck Ellsworth]

I am pretty bored right now so what the hey I will keep feeding the troll.

I happen to know who Strega is and he is far from a troll.

[PilotDAR]

I have managed to fly 100% safely since day one (over 20 years), with no accidents or incidents.

I heard that someone had done this!

With due respect (and there is some...) no accidents or incidents might not equate to 100% safe... Just sayin.....

I would never have the nerve to say that, my two shoulder angles (who... yes, have allowed me to bend metal...) would jump ship!

[Strega]

With due respect (and there is some...) no accidents or incidents might not equate to 100% safe... Just sayin.....

True, but if having accidents and incidents is much more "unsafe" than not having...

I would much rather lend my plane to someone that has not landed gear up, than someone that has done it 3 times.. just sayin..

[trampbike]

.
The only time I would consider the split S (F-18 or light aircraft) would be if I am in an extreme (60 degrees for a light aircraft, 85 degrees for an aerobatic aircraft) nose down attitude. Otherwise, roll upright and pull just outside of stall (or just enough so my speed doesn't decrease) maintaining just below Va.

Bad advice, please go try it before giving advice here.