Instructor Wages

[Hedley]

When instructors consider their skills to have value and as a whole do not accept low wages then things will change

You misunderstand.

99% of the instructors in Canada are not career instructors,
they are merely intern commercial pilots who are building time as
instructors, and they will move on ASAP.

So when an instructor in Canada gives an hour of dual, he is
compensated in two ways:

1) the $18/hr that he gets from the FTU, which likely
charged the customer $65/hr for his time, and

2) the instructor gets to log an hour of PIC in his
personal logbook.

#2 is far more valuable to the intern commercial
pilot, than #1. In the case of say multi-engine
instruction, there is no reason that #1 could not
go negative, since the intern considers #2 so
incredibly valuable.

Yes, economic theory can predict instructors
paying for each hour of multi-engine instruction
that they give. This is not so outrageous, when
you consider what low-time intern pilots do, to
fly multi-engine aircraft after they finish instruction.

But anyways. The easy way to fix this problem
is to have instructors, to whom #2 is nearly
worthless, and thusly demand a more reasonable
number for #1.

Of course, this pool of instructors would likely
have several thousand hours, at least.

Bottom line is that as long as 200 hour commercial
pilots can legally get their instructor rating, flight
instructors will always be paid poorly in Canada.

[tiny]

The market doesn't look all bad: http://www.avcanada.ca/forums2/viewtopi ... =7&t=46545

[Shiny Side Up]

Bottom line is that as long as 200 hour commercial
pilots can legally get their instructor rating, flight
instructors will always be paid poorly in Canada.

While part of the problem, its not entirely true, or the single cause of the problem. There are, in my experience, plenty of very good potential instructors at the 200 hour level, the real bottom line is motivation to want to do so. Admittedly, pay is a big deterrent from more experienced pilots engaging in the instructor world, but it isn't the only one. Many of the sentiments whic get echoed on this site are a big part of the problem as well. The idea that we value pilots given the airplane that they fly is part of it as well. Never mind the fact that the instructing world is also one of customer service - which in today's world means flight instructors get treated like WalMart employees by their students. For some reason the idea that flight training should be cheap still pervades the customer/student's line of thinking - based I find on those ever present stories about how so and so got their licence for $600 back in the sixties.

Part of the misconception is like the statement quoted "200 hour commercial pilots" training new pilots. Why shouldn't a pilot be proficient at 200 hours? What we need isn't pilots with more hours, we need pilots who are competent and a licence requirement system that focuses on pilot proficiency rather than time building.

[Strega]

There are, in my experience, plenty of very good potential instructors at the 200 hour level, the real bottom line is motivation to want to do so

What would you think if you showed up to a university class, only to find the prof had only taken, and passed, that very class in the previous semester?


I know what I would do....

[Shiny Side Up]

Keep in mind that I said potential. The problem there that not all of the potentially good instructors become instructors. In a lot of cases I've seen too pilots with tons of time and experience become instructors as well, but its not their hours alone which suit them to be so. One would almost like to see a process by which potentially good instructors are sought out and encouraged to continue in this line of work, while also we weed out those ill suited to the task. This will probably mean for fewer instructors out there - which I'd be prepared to deal with - if the ones that were out there were very motivated to the task.

The idea as well that the instructor "just graduated" from the class they'll be teaching is inaccurate as well. Firstly, IF our instructor is qualified, they'll already have 5 times the ammount of time that the majority of the people they'll be training (that is to say your 45 hours for an average private licence) when those trainees are done. Secondly, we also aren't really expecting great things from our potential trainees either. Have you seen what it takes to get a private licence in terms of standards? We don't really have a high bar to meet. Why? Because the licencing system is treated too much like a time building system - which I find is a really hard concept to break in newer students, and especially parents of new students. Too long has it been stressed that you just need to put in your "hours" to get a licence. Once again I'll press the point that those "200 hours" what matters is what you've learned from them.

[Vimana]

There are, in my experience, plenty of very good potential instructors at the 200 hour level, the real bottom line is motivation to want to do so

What would you think if you showed up to a university class, only to find the prof had only taken, and passed, that very class in the previous semester?


I know what I would do....

I would make sure and do my own reading HAHAHA

[gitso]

Wages in CYOW are approx. as follows

Class 4 $17.50/hr
Class 3 $20.00/hr
Class 2 $22.50/hr
Class 1 $25.00/hr

Havent really gone up much considering inflation. Welcome to "aviation prostitution!"

[Invertago]

Wages in CYOW are approx. as follows

Class 4 $17.50/hr
Class 3 $20.00/hr
Class 2 $22.50/hr
Class 1 $25.00/hr

Havent really gone up much considering inflation. Welcome to "aviation prostitution!"

I sure hope there is a base pay with that or I'd be "C ya" out of there.

[Shiny Side Up]

Well since there's enough fools out there who give it away for free, It can hardly be called "prostituion" in many cases.

[MichaelP]

15 years ago the dual rate was $40 or so above the solo rate... Instructors got a little less than half.
Today $45 to $50 is the dual rate but the dollar is worth a lot less now.

It requires all schools to agree to make the dual cost higher so that instructors can get paid at least 80% of what they would be paid in 1990.

It would be interesting to see what the percentage increase in instructor cost, dual over solo, has been over the past 25 years.
If we paid $100 an hour a few years ago, and $45 for the instructor, and now we pay $140 with $50 for the instructor then in real terms we are a lot worse off.

[B-rad]

Bottom line is that as long as 200 hour commercial
pilots can legally get their instructor rating, flight
instructors will always be paid poorly in Canada.

Thats the best idea I have head in a long time Hedley. The requirements for earning your instructor rating should include having an ATPL or something to that effect.

should seriously be considered

[Invertago]

ATPL as a prerequisite for instructing could fix the industry as a whole. Means instructing to build hours is obsolete, thus fewer instructors and they better be paid well because there is no 'hours' incentive in there. Fewer students being hosed for hours. Price of a CPL rises dramatically, and we have less CPLs out there which makes it easier for those with a CPL to land that first gig with out whoring themselves to the lowest bidder.

Safety would improve because newly minted CPLs would have the balls to say no because there is no replacement resume sitting on the bosses desk.


Only down side I see is that recreational aviation becomes even more difficult as those who just want a PPL can't afford it.

Thoughts? Lets write some letters
Wait, I had delusions of a democracy here lol silly me

[Hedley]

I'd settle for 1000TT as a requirement to get an
instructor rating. It would vastly improve the
quality of instructing, and cut out 90% of the
people who are instructing "for free" to simply
build time.

I guess I'm old-fashioned, but IMHO a teacher
should be experienced at what he is teaching,
not a newbie.

[Shiny Side Up]

I'd settle for 1000TT as a requirement to get an
instructor rating. It would vastly improve the
quality of instructing, and cut out 90% of the
people who are instructing "for free" to simply
build time.

Firstly I believe the problem with flight training today is that so much of the focus is on "building hours". This requirement I feel would make the problem worse since people would be doing whatever they can to meet that magic hour requirement. Secondly, there are also plenty of experienced instructors out there also doing stuff for free, which has the effect of devaluing the system for us all. Free things ruin good working relationships, and that includes providing instruction.

Personally I think we should nix all the current total hour requirements we have for licences (I know I'm repeating myself for I know I've posted this before.) Getting a licence should be based solely on performance. While I do like stuff in the CPL requirements like the 300Nm cross country trip - we don't really test an applicant's ability to carry this out. I mean during the CPL student's "time building" the only thing that really matters about their performance here is whether they survive it - hardly a high bar to meet. Technically a CPL student could get lost, get in a mid air collision, violate a dozen CARS and bring the airplane back in a smoking heap to base step away from the wreckage and count the trip as "accomplished" for purposes of licencing.

In the current system performance is valued far less as an indicator of skill than time. I'm not sure why its become that way.

[Invertago]

CPL student could get lost, get in a mid air collision, violate a dozen CARS and bring the airplane back in a smoking heap to base step away from the wreckage and count the trip as "accomplished" for purposes of licencing.

I picture a few people I've come across as having finished their CPL license with a trip like this.

[g_goo_goo]

CPL student could get lost, get in a mid air collision, violate a dozen CARS and bring the airplane back in a smoking heap to base step away from the wreckage and count the trip as "accomplished" for purposes of licencing.

I picture a few people I've come across as having finished their CPL license with a trip like this.

The aircraft I rented had a wonky radio and the transponder didn't work sometimes. Drove me crazy... Try skirting around class C airspace trying to figure out where the heck you are when air traffic control tell you to remain clear because your mode C doesn't work. Good thing there was a working 430 on board.

[Invertago]

Transponder off = stealth mode

Did you recycle your transponder aka off then on to try to get it working? After that flight, did you check under the aircraft and whip the oil off it? (on most light a/c the oil barfed out of the engine gives a nice black coat on the transponder antenna and screws up the signal.) Usually either of those actions will fix the problem.

[g_goo_goo]

Transponder off = stealth mode

Did you recycle your transponder aka off then on to try to get it working? After that flight, did you check under the aircraft and whip the oil off it? (on most light a/c the oil barfed out of the engine gives a nice black coat on the transponder antenna and screws up the signal.) Usually either of those actions will fix the problem.

Come to think of it, there was some dirt on the underbelly. Someone must have done some 4x4 ing on a dirt field.

[MichaelP]

I've never known a transponder signal to be seriously attenuated because the aerial is plastered with oil!
Mind you if that same oil contains a lot of metal from the engine you might have a problem

Some places you avoid renting from.

At one place I know I was asked to feel the stabilator on their Seneca. I could move the port tip up and down about one inch. The port bearing was shot and they'd been flying it like that!

Same place, in a Cessna 152, the RPM wouldn't go below 1,000 at idle... OK I can put up with that.
On takeoff a cloud of oil smoke came from under the instrument panel... Strike 2, there won't be a third! I requested an abbreviated circuit, why? "smoke in the cockpit", they called out the fire brigade.
No, I won't willingly rent from that place. Every incident that calls the TC inspectors out results in a parade of aeroplanes to and from maintenance.

I don't blame maintenance. I've worked with many, and they are only human. Treat them well, motivate them and the job gets done. Sure there are mistakes, but work together to get better.

Instructor wages... If you want to see how you are going to be treated and how willing the company is to pay what it's worth, look at the aircraft.
Sad aeroplanes = sad operation; do you really need it that much?

[GottaFly]

Well... again an avcanada subject that's gotten quite a bit off topic. Doesn't matter though, we have made quite a few good points here. Although i have to disagree with higher time requirement for instructors.

Bottom Line, how many instructors do you know that have more than 1000 hours? very few IMHO.... Once an instructor hits 1000 they start counting time up and figuring out how much more they need for an ATPL.. Or, if it's the winter they start getting their resumes polished up with a shiny 1000 hours so they can hit up the regionals for that "golden" multi turbine time come spring time.

The ONLY way that you would get someone with an ATPL or 1000hours to become an instructor is to offer them more money.... lots and lots and lots of money.... which would mean higher rates which would mean fewer customers. So much for recreational flying.

The other thing is time building is a requirement in our industry. If there was no instructing below 1000 hours, low time cpl pilots would find jobs elsewhere.... i think the safest cockpit for a 230 hour pilot is in the right seat of a c152. In flight training, its next to impossible to get behind a student even if you're a low time class 4. The majority of the class 4s i know are excellent instructors, and know their stuff well. It is inevitable that young instructors are going to try to become airline pilots. Everyone needs to just accept this fact whether you want to or not. If you want to operate a flight school, and want to hire instructors that are going to stay and not leave for an airline, good luck staying competitive in the industry.

Bottom line is, TC monitors and regulates the flight training industry close enough to create a somewhat safe industry.

The point of this subject was to try to get an idea as to what a career instructor can make for money. Can i afford to live, maybe buy a house eventually?

[Invertago]

Bottom line is, TC monitors and regulates the flight training industry close enough to create a somewhat safe industry.

Cat!!!! CAT!!!! Where are you????


But seriously... have you seen some of the crap coast to coast in the flight instruction industry??? The only thing keeping people from killing themselves more is that most training aircraft are extremely forgiving. I'm not anti-TC (nor am I a fan of the bureaucratic nightmare), but they only see the paperwork, they can pretty much watch a flight school or instructor kill a student but until they get something in writing their hands are tied. Common sense and government bureaucraticy (TC, legal system, police, health care you name it) are mutually exclusive in our country. The average civil servant (average, there are a few exceptions) warms an office chair from 9-4 m-f and lives a secure little middle class life. There is no motivation for them to overachieve, and no consequences for underachieving. There are many bad apples in the flight training industry and just as many civil servants at TC that would rather ignore the problems and hope they go away on their own.

Actually, maybe you happen to be at a good school and deal with a good TC inspector and haven't traveled much, then I can see your perspective.

Ok, someone elses turn to rant on this now.

[GottaFly]

No, i'm not going to have an argument with Cat about this....... again. I do realize he's probably shaking his head at this feed. I do agree about the inconsistency in the TC inspectors though, and your right, we have a great inspector and i do work at a fantastic school.

[Cat Driver]

Cat!!!! CAT!!!! Where are you????

Oh , I'm here and occasionally read this forum , however I no longer post here due to the fact that I am eons removed from the flight training industry and really have nothing in common with said industry especially some of the flight instructors.

[RVR6000]

I think the flight test standards to obtain an instructor rating are too easy. Keep the minimums at 200 TT, but include in each flight test the candidate’s ability to teach how to land an aircraft (crosswinds, short field, engine failure scenario), steep turns, spin recovery, and forced approaches. Keep the other exercises like diversions, slow flight, pre-cautionary landings, and instrument as optional. The flight test should be around 2.5 hours and more rigorous than the commercial ride.

[Invertago]

I think the flight test standards to obtain an instructor rating are too easy. Keep the minimums at 200 TT, but include in each flight test the candidate’s ability to teach how to land an aircraft (crosswinds, short field, engine failure scenario), steep turns, spin recovery, and forced approaches. Keep the other exercises like diversions, slow flight, pre-cautionary landings, and instrument as optional. The flight test should be around 2.5 hours and more rigorous than the commercial ride.

Can you really sum up "can a person teach" in a flight test? Could there be some other means of evaluating a candidates progress? People studying to become school teachers are evaluated throughout a course not just can they pass a subjective final exam. As the military trains pilots, many wash-out, those that finish get wings. Maybe the instructor course needs to be a formalized course at a larger school and those who are not demonstrating 'instructing aptitude' wash out leaving a few good instructors to graduate at the end. They could have multiple review checks along the way rather then just one final exam at the end. Right now all the instructor refresher courses are in one location, (a few more would be nice) but you can get your class IV from any current class 1 assuming you pass a single test at the end. Maybe there should only be a few schools teaching instructors so the program can be better monitored. Students go away to attend college, why not have to attend a program somewhere for instructor ratings.